0:00

welcome to the uh second community

0:03

engagement interview series

0:05

today we are with two of the artisan

0:08

residents

0:09

that are part of the artscape atelier at

0:11

zebe

0:12

in ottawa quebec we have ryan steck from

0:15

ottawa

0:16

and noah shineman from kingston uh

0:19

today they will be discussing their

0:23

interests and research that they

0:26

have brought to the table during the

0:28

last nine weeks of the residency

0:30

as far as their interests are aligned

0:32

with the

0:33

histories of the ottawa river ways the

0:36

shoddy air falls

0:37

and everything in between and they will

0:39

be discussing this

0:41

they are artists and architects so they

0:44

are coming in

0:45

coming to this discussion with a bit of

0:46

a different lens from say that

0:48

of the experts uh within geography

0:52

geology

0:53

and history so

0:56

expect a very interesting discussion uh

0:59

before we begin

1:00

i would like to acknowledge that zb

1:04

and the development site uh as the focus

1:06

for this residency and its site

1:08

specificity

1:09

uh is uh located on the traditional

1:12

unseated territory

1:14

of the algonquin nation and that

1:16

importantly we

1:17

recognize that the algonquin peoples are

1:20

the traditional stewards of this land

1:23

comprising of the entire national

1:24

capital region

1:26

and that the zibi site holds a

1:28

particular

1:30

cultural significance as a historic

1:32

healing and meeting place

1:34

for indigenous peoples so in recognition

1:37

of this

1:38

we have committed that the residency

1:40

throughout the program

1:42

engages fully in this cultural heritage

1:44

and seeks

1:45

to offer public art as a way to

1:47

authentically and respectfully celebrate

1:49

the nuanced history of the site

1:52

so with that in mind and uh with

1:55

everything that i just said i am now

1:57

going to stop talking and offer the

2:00

floor

2:00

to ryan and noah take it away

2:09

ryan i thought i would ask you a a

2:11

question just to help us get rolling

2:14

here

2:15

um so i i approached uh this kind of

2:18

area

2:18

of the schodier falls and the sites

2:22

um sort of through the lens of an artist

2:24

and a filmmaker but

2:25

you know because i have a background as

2:27

well in architecture

2:29

and design and thinking about kind of

2:32

urban

2:33

urban issues um i also can

2:37

imagine uh or i often think what kind of

2:41

sort of design

2:42

or architectural uh or landscape

2:44

proposals

2:45

i might have made if that was um sort of

2:48

the medium through which

2:49

i was kind of working through some of

2:51

the

2:52

the research and thinking about the site

2:54

so i guess i’m just sort of curious

2:56

uh what you how you feel

3:00

design um where was

3:03

a sort of a productive means through

3:05

which to engage with the site and

3:07

uh whether there were shortcomings in

3:08

that process or

3:10

sort of how you felt about um

3:13

that kind of sort of disciplinary

3:16

lens to um

3:20

to think about it yeah i think i mean

3:24

this is

3:24

the whole atelier has been interesting

3:26

in in the way that

3:28

you know for me the interest

3:31

in this site came through

3:34

a number of things i did um in my

3:37

masters of architecture

3:38

and they were you know as the masters is

3:42

these kind of theoretical imaginings um

3:45

and at that moment

3:48

um the preoccupation and and coming into

3:51

this

3:52

um to this atelier was about the water

3:56

and the waterways and thinking about you

3:58

know um

4:00

interventions into the water and somehow

4:03

like

4:03

um that the falls were this this sort of

4:06

really

4:07

uh capturing the imagination in that way

4:10

um what i think is interesting with

4:13

atelier

4:14

is obviously we’re coming a project like

4:16

this is

4:17

has to start to be grounded in a

4:19

pragmatic place of

4:21

of actually wanting to do something and

4:24

make something

4:25

and what i didn’t expect was the shift

4:29

in a conversation with um

4:32

and under the the sort of umbrella of a

4:36

developer

4:37

a very real pragmatic thing that’s being

4:40

built out there

4:41

is the shift from the water to the land

4:44

i think has been something

4:46

um as as the atelier has gone on

4:49

you know and so the the i think the

4:52

water is a really challenging thing to

4:54

think through

4:55

i think we’re both sort of captured by

4:56

that imagination the idea of this

4:58

watershed

5:00

the idea that there are things that we

5:02

don’t

5:03

um particularly in the sort of western

5:07

design tradition of thinking about these

5:09

larger systems and how to engage them

5:11

and how to

5:12

uh actions and the environment actually

5:14

connect to those so

5:16

um uh it was

5:19

you know those those are very

5:20

imaginative and they capture

5:22

you know these big challenges of how to

5:24

how to get people to think about that

5:26

but what’s been interesting i think here

5:28

is shifting to

5:29

thinking about the ground the ground

5:31

that’s there and all the layers and the

5:33

relationship between

5:34

the different entities involved in here

5:37

so that’s definitely one thing i know it

5:40

doesn’t directly answer your question of

5:41

like

5:42

what how does design itself but i think

5:45

um

5:46

you know that is a big uh a big part of

5:48

it

5:49

is like there’s almost a kind of

5:50

parallel metaphor there

5:52

like instead of stepping out of the

5:53

water and actually having to

5:55

you know uh put a foot in the ground and

5:58

say

5:58

you know what kinds of things can

6:00

actually happen here

6:03

yeah absolutely yeah the the water does

6:05

remain sort of

6:06

elusive in its own way and i think it

6:08

does speak to some of the

6:09

problems architecture has for kind of

6:12

dealing with

6:13

more sort of impermanent uh quite

6:16

literally sort of fluid

6:18

um sort of entities um in a lot of ways

6:20

even though it often makes a lot of

6:22

reference to ideas of sort of

6:24

flow and movement but um

6:27

i think the it’s real capacity capacity

6:30

to gauge or

6:30

engage with those kind of energies

6:32

always ends up being to me a little bit

6:33

limited and

6:34

a little bit uh disappointing yeah

6:38

for yourself you you know i think you my

6:41

understanding you came into this

6:43

um already thinking a lot about um the

6:46

forests

6:47

and the sk and the and the forest as a

6:50

as this kind of

6:51

both as a system and then also as a like

6:54

uh

6:54

the way a forest is sort of

6:57

um represented uh in

7:01

and how it like how it’s represented in

7:02

different political and social and

7:04

commercial entities and

7:06

um how has that changed for you over the

7:08

process of the atlea

7:11

um well i think

7:15

it’s what’s been i don’t know if it’s

7:17

changed so much as it sort of uh

7:19

sort of reversed the gaze uh in an

7:21

interesting way where

7:22

uh my interest in research really

7:25

started

7:26

um the way i like to think about it sort

7:28

of sort of in the forest or

7:30

actually not actually in the forest it

7:32

started in toronto but in terms of

7:34

thinking about

7:35

the forest and the uh sort of the

7:37

interior of the ottawa valley

7:39

um and that was through research into

7:42

algonquin provincial park

7:44

which is this sort of very iconic uh

7:46

space in

7:47

the ontario and canadian kind of

7:48

imagination ideas of wilderness

7:51

and ideas of nature but my research

7:55

into uh that nature um sort of revealed

7:59

that it had a long history of logging

8:01

and much of its um sort of shape and

8:04

current form

8:05

was really through um through the timber

8:09

industry and so at that point um i

8:13

my interest sort of shifted a little bit

8:15

to better understanding the mechanisms

8:17

through which this

8:18

timber industry really kind of shaped

8:20

that landscape

8:21

um and that quite quickly led sort of

8:24

out of the forest

8:24

and sort of like you know along the

8:27

river and down the river to shoddy air

8:30

and so for me i was always

8:33

thinking about this kind of

8:37

flow of materials and flow of energy and

8:39

labor

8:41

and capital quite honestly um so where

8:44

you know trees you know coming

8:48

to the ottawa site and then sort of some

8:50

capital and investment you know sort of

8:52

flowing into the interior of the forest

8:54

and in large part sort of sort of

8:56

shaping that whole kind of regional

8:58

landscape which kind of developed my

9:00

whole kind of consciousness of that kind

9:01

of larger area

9:04

but the shorty air site was always kind

9:07

of down a river

9:08

and now doing being kind of situated

9:12

in the zibby site it really is now a

9:14

question of like

9:15

thinking about upriver and not only the

9:17

forest but

9:18

the source of the river the life that

9:21

happens along the river

9:23

uh as it sort of moves kind of like

9:25

through um

9:27

the landscape and like sort of beyond

9:29

the site as well

9:30

so it’s just been this kind of shifted

9:32

mentality um

9:34

that’s um been also sort of aided by all

9:37

the kind of different voices

9:39

um that have been uh part of the

9:42

residency

9:43

uh through the workshops and a lot of

9:44

the speakers um you know kind of hearing

9:46

those sort of different

9:47

uh perspectives has kind of also helped

9:50

to inform

9:51

um kind of my own research process and

9:54

understanding

9:55

of the relationships of those kind of

9:58

sites

9:58

um and uh

10:02

i don’t know if it’s sort of shifted my

10:04

my sort of ideas of representations of

10:06

forests but

10:07

it’s kind of grounded them in kind of

10:09

like a new

10:11

set of issues um in a way it’s

10:13

interesting yeah

10:15

something kind of clicked while you’re

10:17

talking there this that

10:19

the the model of the forest and the

10:22

relationship of

10:23

um particularly the sort of settlers

10:26

uh and the companies that were based

10:29

there

10:29

this one of extraction right where this

10:32

the lens

10:33

um on which zibi is being built is kind

10:36

of a center of extraction from

10:38

from a vast um a vast terrain around it

10:42

um and the zibi development is is is

10:45

like a

10:45

it’s a fascinating kind of inversion of

10:47

that right like

10:49

architecture and the development of the

10:50

scale requires quite a lot

10:52

of resources to be marshaled from

10:54

elsewhere to be brought and built

10:57

um and it really it’s a it’s an

11:00

interesting moment um in that landscape

11:03

where

11:04

you know there’s a kind of inversion

11:07

happening around the relationship to

11:09

what it means to build a community on

11:12

this um

11:13

on this on the on these lands and on

11:14

this site after being

11:16

at this kind of just this thoroughfare

11:18

for so for so long

11:20

um so and you get that with i mean your

11:24

your piece um your proposal around

11:27

sort of looking at the pulper and kind

11:28

of trying to break up the pulper and

11:30

to separate it on it has that nice echo

11:32

of like sort of these

11:34

cycles and of time

11:38

yeah for sure another thing i was

11:39

thinking about and i don’t know if you

11:40

had any thoughts about this though

11:42

is you know like with the zippy

11:45

development i think in

11:46

the mid 2000s was the last time there’s

11:48

any sort of proper kind of industrial

11:50

activity on the site

11:51

um and which at every turn really used

11:54

the river

11:55

uh the power generated by the river you

11:57

know first in quite sort of crude ways

12:00

but eventually an increasingly kind of

12:01

sophisticated kind of infrastructures

12:03

uh to the point where you know the the

12:06

energy

12:07

um uh develop on that

12:10

in that area actually like powers a good

12:12

portion of the electricity in ottawa

12:14

um but i sort of had this idea of um

12:18

where that energy which once

12:21

went towards uh sort of producing kind

12:23

of like

12:24

processing physical things is now you

12:27

know very much sort of translated

12:29

into a kind of information economy and

12:31

that’s not something that i’ve been able

12:33

to sort of address

12:34

throughout the atelier but it’s

12:35

something i’ve been thinking about uh

12:37

actually constantly that

12:38

you know it’s sort of um that is sort of

12:42

what’s

12:42

produced and i know that in sort of

12:46

architectural discourse there is you

12:48

know some

12:49

beginning to kind of deal with the um

12:53

kind of like acknowledge economies

12:56

and the kinds of spaces where

12:59

uh like labor happens um so i was

13:02

wondering if you have

13:03

any thoughts about that idea that it’s

13:06

now sort of powering

13:07

this whole other kind of activity which

13:09

is sort of very much about sort of um

13:12

data and um i know that’s sort of like

13:14

maybe a bit of an abstract

13:17

way of kind of going with this but i was

13:18

kind of sort of curious

13:20

to you know sort of bring the

13:23

idea of sort of production and the use

13:26

of the energy

13:27

uh like generated by the river you know

13:29

into all

13:30

these you know apartment units and the

13:32

people working on site and how it still

13:35

really requires this sort of basic

13:38

infrastructure

13:39

um of of the river and the power that it

13:41

kind of generates

13:44

yeah it is an interesting i mean it’s

13:46

interesting to

13:47

think of it in the context of the

13:49

urbanism and the

13:51

you know developments of the last um

13:54

particularly the last uh like 25 well i

13:57

guess

13:58

i was thinking of the end of the 20th

13:59

century of course that’s now 20 years

14:01

ago

14:02

i guess 50 years but these you know

14:06

there’s the part of this development

14:08

which is really like it’s a it’s a

14:10

playbook that’s that that’s already been

14:12

written in a number of places around

14:13

north america

14:14

like uh aging industrial infrastructure

14:17

that is no longer viable that is

14:19

renewed into a kind of we invest into it

14:23

being waterfront that was typically

14:25

um really central to these kinds of

14:27

industrial activities and ottawa

14:29

obviously doesn’t have

14:30

a lot of that so we haven’t really had

14:33

it this is

14:34

new to us in the sense of because we

14:36

don’t you know it was a

14:37

exceptional circumstance for the for the

14:40

capital

14:41

um and so there is you know on that arc

14:44

is is there there’s a whole bunch of

14:46

things that are that are sort of

14:48

following along in that and you

14:50

you wonder you know the the promise

14:54

of the knowledge economy and the reality

14:58

um i have what happens in there

15:01

it’s such an interesting i mean i’m no

15:03

like i haven’t you know

15:05

we both talked about how we’re we’re

15:07

trying to

15:08

with limited time intuit uh ideas about

15:12

how to make something for these sites

15:14

even though

15:15

you know we’re not um experts we’re not

15:18

tasked with being able to study it

15:20

for years and be able to come to these

15:23

kinds of

15:24

um but you know it is an interesting

15:26

confluence of things that

15:28

um that has led to the possibility of

15:31

this being there and i think

15:33

uh as art engine we were

15:36

we’ve been you know watching um

15:40

uh the zb development unfold as i said i

15:43

was you know back in school i was

15:45

i was related to it like 10 years ago

15:48

and

15:49

there’s a apprehension for sure we were

15:51

apprehensive about

15:52

about all these forces that are involved

15:54

in this

15:55

but being involved in it and getting a

15:57

little bit of of a closer up view of it

16:01

is very interesting to see how

16:04

um how you try and make things happen

16:08

nonetheless

16:09

in this in this condition so um

16:12

you know because yeah like the the the

16:14

hydroelectric station like of course in

16:16

a romantic

16:17

vision that i have freeing the falls is

16:20

a wonderful thing but that’s

16:23

um um that’s not necessarily the

16:25

resources and the reality of what’s

16:28

there

16:28

um and what is it doing yeah and what

16:31

can we do with it that’s that’s kind of

16:33

interesting so you start to see all

16:34

these

16:35

like when you visit the the um

16:38

uh the eel

16:42

um you know yeah

16:45

right talk about the the sound of

16:47

technology that’s involved

16:48

in trying to you know layer on top of

16:52

the other technology that’s there and

16:53

layer on top of it and the kind of all

16:55

these kinds of different kinds of data

16:57

that’s produced out of there and this

16:58

engine it’s this incredibly complicated

17:01

you know systems

17:02

on top of system so yeah i mean in in

17:05

the case of the atelier

17:06

you know just become the sort of engine

17:08

for for discourse and discussion and

17:11

sharing as well

17:13

um but yeah i’m glad you took it there

17:14

that was less a specific question and

17:16

more just sort of a common slash

17:19

uh kind of observation but i think when

17:22

you started talking about back to the

17:24

architecture actually and

17:25

and dealing with these kind of like

17:27

post-industrial buildings

17:29

um that’s i guess almost more so

17:33

where i was sort of taking it in terms

17:35

of

17:36

uh you know what of the legacies of that

17:40

kind of activity

17:43

i mean what what amount of that legacy

17:45

in the built environment will remain but

17:47

what other

17:47

forms might that kind of legacy um

17:52

uh might might be kind of uh preserved

17:55

for better for worse

17:56

and um so but it did strike me i would

17:59

you know what

18:00

is that power powering now basically

18:03

you know if it’s not basic if it’s not

18:05

you know making paper

18:07

or making uh sawboars or matchsticks

18:11

um what is being made there now and

18:14

clearly a lot of stuff is actually being

18:15

made there even though

18:17

it looks very different it doesn’t look

18:19

like um you know

18:20

late 19 or late 18th late 19th century

18:24

early 20th century kind of industrial

18:25

activity but there’s still you know

18:27

labor and there’s still this

18:29

relationship

18:30

to the river and the kind of

18:33

uh the infrastructure that it kind of

18:35

provides uh

18:36

for kind of urban life i guess um as

18:39

well

18:39

but um and one of the complexities

18:43

i mean or one of the interesting parts

18:46

of the atelier

18:47

is um um you know zibby has

18:51

collaborated with artscape to kind of

18:53

open up this space for

18:55

artists to reflect on what they know is

18:57

a very complicated history

18:59

right and i mean and just that

19:01

industrial history alone is

19:03

especially in light of you know the way

19:05

we’ve seen

19:06

across north america and well the

19:08

western world reconsideration of what

19:10

certain kinds of monuments mean

19:12

like what do we and looking at the

19:15

industrial heritage in a way that’s like

19:18

that you know how do we be uh

19:21

honest about about the complexities that

19:25

that that heritage brings forward and so

19:27

the the atelier is that you know it’s an

19:29

interesting

19:30

opportunity for artists to like um kind

19:33

of

19:34

try to process some of those

19:36

complexities and offer up some way

19:39

for people to have access to the to the

19:42

complex

19:43

heritage that exists that it’s not you

19:45

know how do you

19:47

how do you pair the kind of

19:50

uh the some reverence for the logging

19:53

history

19:54

and wood and craft and you know in

19:57

entrepreneurship industrialization

19:59

with you know the respect for the

20:02

indigenous cultures that are grounded

20:04

there

20:04

and that and we’re often that friction

20:07

at certain conditions and they’re like

20:10

history of exploitation so how do you

20:12

how do you put all this together you

20:13

can’t do it in a single thing

20:15

um and that’s one of the things that’s

20:17

been you know striking

20:18

for me we bring a certain perspective

20:21

but we see a group of

20:23

of you know sort of six plus projects

20:25

that are

20:26

trying to process that in different ways

20:29

for sure i think that that makes me

20:30

think of two things one

20:32

you just touched on it that um you know

20:35

part of dealing with that complex and

20:37

layered history is to bring together

20:39

six or seven artists um simultaneously

20:43

to kind of think it through and

20:47

make proposals for what kind of

20:50

art can exist on the site um and make

20:53

reference

20:54

or somehow you know kind of deal these

20:57

histories with

20:58

carrying different sort of sensibilities

21:00

to them but then in our

21:02

own proposals uh just to touch on those

21:04

briefly i think

21:06

um in in mine in a physical way

21:09

um sort of trying to uh sort of avoid a

21:13

kind of monolith

21:13

kind of monument because that’s not

21:16

something that i

21:17

sort of felt uh comfortable in this kind

21:20

of like

21:20

celebration of certain aspects of that

21:22

industrial history but

21:24

instead to sort of somehow sort of break

21:26

it apart in a more sort of fragmentary

21:28

kind of

21:29

way um to be experienced sort of um

21:32

sort of spatially in in that way uh and

21:35

then make room

21:36

within that for um you know other kinds

21:39

of gestures and then

21:40

um in a project that you know i know

21:43

that you and remco are working on

21:44

again it’s uh you know it’s not exactly

21:47

it’s not a

21:47

it’s not a monolith you know it’s not a

21:49

single thing it exists

21:50

uh in space and time uh and

21:54

it um it does sort of try

21:57

to uh

22:00

engage with all sorts of dimensions of

22:02

the site without um

22:04

prescribing a very specific reading i

22:06

think that’s what i’m trying to say is

22:07

that these

22:07

are projects that somehow try not to

22:10

over prescribe a single reading

22:12

of the site and instead open up the

22:14

multiple readings that

22:16

are more um

22:19

i think just honest to the complexity of

22:21

the site and the fact that you know no

22:22

single artwork is going to resolve all

22:24

the

22:24

you know for you know 400 years of

22:27

tension and trauma

22:28

like on the site well and i think that’s

22:30

what brought us together around

22:33

the forest and the trees right that the

22:35

um

22:37

the the complexity of

22:40

what a tree as not just as

22:43

like a symbol but as a thing right and i

22:46

think that’s

22:47

um as a thing um that was here

22:50

um you know prior to contact and played

22:54

a particular kind of role

22:55

and and it played a part

22:59

of this early industrial history and

23:02

plays a part in the canadian imagination

23:05

you know to this day um and so

23:08

you know they i think each

23:11

there’s a for uh for us that uh

23:15

i i think the art that allows this

23:18

um the viewer to bring their history to

23:22

it and to be challenged to rethink about

23:23

their history but also isn’t

23:25

entirely prescriptive um and i think

23:28

you know we’re trying to get up by like

23:30

trying to explore

23:32

the different ways of representing um

23:35

an idea of forest and trees and growth

23:37

and cycles

23:39

um trying to create a space where people

23:42

can

23:42

actually see and follow these different

23:44

vectors

23:48

yeah yeah and and introduce um i think

23:50

something that

23:51

we’ve talked about a lot is sort of

23:52

introduce um

23:55

you know slightly different notions of

23:57

time whether it’s geologic time or

23:59

you know forest growth time um and

24:03

thinking about

24:04

understanding the forest growth not in

24:05

terms of you know a sort of

24:08

linear you know birth to death but uh

24:10

but uh but a cycle of cycles

24:12

and um you know one thing i was just

24:14

thinking of earlier is it’s not really

24:16

so much

24:16

a 400 year old tree in the sense of like

24:20

you know one year after the other it’s

24:22

it’s really like

24:23

uh 400 cycles of the earth around the

24:26

sun and i think you were sort of making

24:27

reference to that

24:28

too in some of your writing that i was

24:30

just sort of picking up on and

24:32

and that really does help articulate a

24:35

little bit

24:37

how many readings are kind of needed to

24:39

really sort of engage

24:40

with um yeah with the site

24:44

yeah i think that’s uh it’ll be

24:46

interesting too i think that

24:48

in the proposal where we’re talking

24:50

about um and i guess

24:52

i don’t know how much people who are

24:53

viewing this will know about the

24:54

proposals but

24:55

part of our our uh collaboration is

24:58

trying to

24:59

um uh make a generative video

25:02

and that unfolds over a long period of

25:04

time

25:06

and i what’s interesting about you know

25:09

we’re trying to

25:10

to bring some technology

25:14

to kind of accentuate these different

25:16

experiences of time

25:18

in a place right that people who maybe

25:20

live there will see it

25:22

um over time every day and and will have

25:26

this kind of shifting thing and

25:28

people who have seen it in different

25:29

conditions will have different

25:30

experiences of it

25:33

something that kind of points to

25:35

simultaneously

25:37

both this cyclical experience of time

25:40

and the kind of linear arc um which is

25:44

you know what i’m very reticent about

25:47

saying

25:47

you know nature i guess if it’s a thing

25:50

out there that

25:52

um but i think that’s we’re trying to

25:55

point to these

25:56

other other ways of seeing the world

25:59

absolutely well do you think that’s a

26:01

good way a good place to end it for

26:02

today or

26:03

i think it’s a pretty good way to wrap

26:05

it up yeah yeah

26:06

all right well thanks for the chat room

26:08

i appreciate it yeah uh

26:10

oh and uh brennan’s back now just popped

26:13

in to say thank you guys

26:14

and uh stay tuned we will be having one

26:18

more

26:18

um video where all the artists and

26:21

residents

26:22

uh will be coming together in a reunion

26:25

show in september

26:26

so thank you all at noah ryan that was

26:29

informative

26:30

and uh awesome thank you guys

26:35

thank you

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