Introduction

0:12

hello uh welcome Suzanne kite we’re here

0:18

with uh Suzanne who is an Oglala Lakota performance artist visual artist

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composer she’s also a PhD candidate at Concordia University where she is also a

0:30

research assistant with the initiative for indigenous Futures her research

0:35

centers around contemporary Lakota ways of knowing and

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exploring all of that through research creation as well as your traditional Humanities research

0:48

and she’s here today to talk to us about some of the work we’ve been doing in the

0:55

digital economies lab and her project welcome how you doing today

almanac project

1:00

well how are you um pretty good pretty good um I guess we’ll get started with a kind

1:07

of overview of the project the almanac project that you’ve been working on do you want to tell us a bit about that

1:14

yeah so the almanac project uh kind of I thought about it and I don’t know

1:21

conceived of it during the workshops which happened

1:27

before the pandemic started um and well I guess we didn’t know it had started yet and before the George

1:35

Floyd protests and before kind of the um you know culmination of many crises

1:44

over long periods of time came to a head and in our conscious Ness consciousnesses

1:51

and uh the project ended up being well I originally I was

1:58

thinking I could make a very simple resource guide for resources I knew were out there

2:04

something printable uh something updatable for artists to access resources like how do I get a grant

2:13

um uh how do I access uh basic needs um many things that we talked about in

2:19

the Del Workshop but actually as we as the year went on it slowly things

2:27

became added to it like where do I access basic Healthcare uh where can I

2:33

get covet testing and um what I saw was an extreme

2:41

spike in the way resources were being shared usually through Google Sheets and

2:47

on Instagram and on Twitter and so they’d be like chains of information

2:54

and Cascades of links that usually led to paypals or gofundme’s but

3:04

there was still this problem of how the information was was very it’s very difficult to navigate and once the links

3:10

are dead you can never find them again especially on Instagram uh and and if

3:16

there’s censorship they’re gone so what it Formed morphed into was I realized I couldn’t it became absolutely

3:23

overwhelming not only with just the year but with the concept of because the

3:28

needs had changed people’s needs were crisis needs not or just a just artists artists are seem

3:36

to always being crisis because of lack of funding and everything but it was like real extreme but you could see that

3:42

artists were often the ones who were had been prepared for moments like this and were responding with

3:49

um activism and organization so what I decided to do was just uh reach out to

3:55

some folks who wanted to get together and uh I got together with Alicia B

4:01

wormsley who’s an acrofuturist um from uh Pittsburgh uh uh Lindsay

4:07

Nixon who now goes by um yes Morgan and uh they are a uh indigenous uh art

4:16

historian an academic and um we oh and

4:24

Lupe who’s from um and also two which is a design organization and we had a

4:31

private week we talked together about what we thought our needs were we had a private Workshop um with a small group of people

4:38

um online and then we had a really big public Workshop um where the public was invited to a

4:43

round table and yeah I I mean there’s so there’s so much and like what basically what we

4:50

wanted to do was ask folks to um was asked folks to imagine with us an

4:58

almanac that imagined backwards from where the future is that we want where

5:04

we artists and just anybody has based basic needs met human rights needs met basic resources that they need and want

5:11

there in the future and then think backwards to where such information could be collected into easily legible

5:18

resources and just to go back into the sort of

transformation

5:23

um the transformation of this the original idea um as a kind of a research or no sorry a

5:32

resource that you wanted to collect and sort of just kind of put a lot of the

5:37

the knowledge that you had into a way for people to access um for you the transformation

5:44

um into the including others and the sort of Workshop that you ended up doing in the fall

5:51

um that you just felt it was mainly the kind of sort of the rising crisis moment

5:57

what was it that sort of changed it into bringing um bringing these others into the

6:03

project or and I guess I’m sort of asking like what’s the framework around

6:09

um making transforming a project into one that begins with you to a more Collective uh endeavor

6:17

yeah I think that answer is that you know as I’ve learned how to

6:24

um move through academic circles I’ve learned about methodology and you know

6:29

the methodology that I want to use is not only research creation methodology

6:35

you know things where I’m making things that in order to make new knowledge or mobilize knowledge

6:41

but uh but indigenous methodologies which are rooted in consultation and you

6:48

just can’t make any decisions without identifying you know who you who your

6:54

mentors are even if not I’m talking about not necessarily elders but just people who are already doing what you’re

7:01

doing in a good way and then um identifying need and my needs are

7:07

very specific and lots of other people’s needs are very different and we were able to map that but it’s the including

7:13

other people is the necessary step can you can you uh uh elaborate a bit

consultation

7:21

more too on that idea of uh uh like even how do you how do you know or decide

7:27

um uh where to turn for that inclusion in that consultation is uh what kind of

7:33

process Did you sort of go through for yourself to to because I think it’s a really interesting part of the project

7:39

and the moment where it becomes this kind of really quite a vibrant and incredible Collective of people working

7:45

on it but that that transformation between that is really uh something that

7:51

really really interesting to hear about yeah I think the what first happened was

7:57

I was in conversation with Alicia B Warmsley about another Workshop we were

8:03

doing um called it’s basically a black and Indigenous

8:08

um dreaming where we got together with the nav Mission and that Bishop from the

8:14

nap Ministry uh Trisha Hersey and we invited other um black indigenous futurists to

8:22

um take a nap together basically over zoom and dream of the future together code dream sort of and talk about

8:28

dreaming practices and after I had that Converse those conversations with her it

8:34

became really clear that it I I had to include

8:39

um you know I had to include other people especially

8:44

um people who had already worked through a lot of this stuff I had to include my um Inuit kin my black kin my the other

8:53

indigenous can um you know and especially groups that have already been going through

8:59

collaborative processes um like Lupe Pita’s um involvement in

9:06

uh and also two which does a whole con consultation practice in order to

9:12

produce documents so yeah I just kind of felt necessary to include those folks and

9:20

basically I mean it’s so it’s so intense inviting people to workshops during this time because people are so over

9:26

overworked actually um and so I’m just grateful that people came

workshop

9:32

yeah I think so maybe can you tell us a bit about uh uh the how the workshop sort of unfolded

9:40

and what what uh how it and also I think how it transformed the project for you

9:46

so there was the transformation of bringing in um different types of perspectives on

9:51

how to how to make and what kind of a document what a document means and then

9:56

you actually organize a workshop which is another layer of inclusion and consultation so how did the workshop go

10:02

and what did that look like yeah the workshop um began with uh you know really setting

10:11

our goals and deciding the structure and it was really um you know thanks to the Concordia

10:19

University has a feminist media studio and they um helped do some production for me

10:25

especially a research assistant um and Marie who really um helped me I’m nobody without Tech

10:32

assistance and research assistants and I need a lot of help and

10:38

um so we could so we were able to actually organize um getting people

10:43

um money for lunch and for DM like things like that uh to make sure people had a lot of support show you know

10:52

that’s really but we asked people to be prepared to do a be comfortable to do a

10:58

grounding exercise we asked people to share resources their own projects your

11:03

projects if not irrelevant but just to be able to build on a small database for that

11:09

um and we asked people to spend some time before we got online you know writing down visualizing their Community

11:15

needs in a future where there’s needs have been met and then to prepare some

11:21

introduction material which is always so hard because we could introduce ourselves for hours and and you know if

11:28

I could run a workshop in person that’s what we do do um when we get indigenous folks together is we really need hours

11:34

to introduce ourselves um to contextualize ourselves so basically that’s what we did we we

11:42

um introduced ourselves and Alicia helped me ground the situation and

11:47

everyone introduced ourselves and then we did two breakout sessions um one was brainstorming possible

11:54

Almanac versions features possibilities needs and then the second one was questions that we wanted to ask the

12:00

broader audience and we opened it up to the public um and yeah that was it was so much

12:07

preparation and it went by in like a second that first event yeah well I mean I think that’s

working with others

12:14

um the sort of long tail of the most really important long tale of an event that having an event sometimes is just

12:21

the excuse for all of the preparation and the thinking about how to articulate

12:26

um this this thing that you’re trying to do to others and to include them I think is a really interesting process how did

12:33

that uh how did it change uh what you were thinking about the project what

12:39

effect did it have on on the kind of collective sort of imagining that you had for the project with others

12:46

I think I I would have to look back at my notes

12:52

but I think one of the most important things was um you know inviting your your real

12:58

colleagues like who know you who are not gonna not tell you their real opinions

13:04

um they’re not gonna boss things over some of my colleagues have pushed back about some of the ways I was shaping the

13:11

ideas and which I’m very grateful for and I’d have to look back and see what specifically they were but

13:18

um you know I think that some things that change where as as usual and that’s what I’ve

13:24

learned working I worked I work with indigenous folks all the time but I rarely have the opportunity to work with

13:32

afrofuturists and working and the thing is afrofuturism has done a lot of this

13:37

work already for us it’s like the future has been

13:42

um really explored and done and methodology has been developed and so you know working with Alicia

13:50

um is like working with someone she’s just been doing it for longer and she comes

13:55

from a line of artists who have been doing it for you know decades longer so I think that really helped and helped

14:03

you know Felicia had a really amazing Clarity a vision of how governance could

14:08

work for an a structure like this a resource like this

14:14

um and so as that sort of chain that that has changed the way I see the

14:20

possibilities and you know one thing that I you know the problem with an idea like

14:26

this is it could be infinite um but I think the thing that really changed for me was instead of thinking

14:32

of a resource I started to think of a structure um or a software or a

14:39

um a method of doing things not necessarily a PDF

14:45

right yeah so can you can you uh elaborate on

structure

14:50

some of those like even if they’re sort of Fantastical in your mind of the idea

14:55

of what that structure might look like uh

15:01

okay yeah I um I’m just gonna put in front of my face

15:08

this uh thinking about the you know what

15:14

it’s like there’s there’s this issue between how much Community consultation how we talk to people is like the more

15:21

Community more Community consultation had to be done um so

15:26

one thing that people talked about was uh you know accessibility

15:32

um Grant Cycles uh like ways to

15:37

say this is who I am what resources are out there for me

15:43

um which I think the cine Act was the one who pointed that out um this is who I am what this is what I

15:49

want to take care of um this is what I want in 10 years how can I get there

15:55

um and you know some of these things like structurally

16:02

we we ended up thinking about different bubbles of care like things that we wanted to take care of and of course

16:07

those bubbles of mental and physical health cross but we still saw them as kind of like

16:14

little clusters of of information but uh the thing that

16:21

um we really wanted to explore and hopefully I’ll get to explore more is about in design how you can include

16:29

circular time non-linear time six uh cyclical Seasons because that that’s

16:36

also how Grant stuff works and how economies work and there’s there is a

16:42

cyclical nature to it and things don’t repeat necessarily but Seasons happen so

16:49

yeah yeah the the spiral the things are going kind of around

technology

16:55

um and repeating but never quite covering the same space the kind of endless spiral yeah

17:01

yeah um the the the idea of

17:08

um the role of technology in this uh and and it’s such a sort of Broad and almost

17:14

meaningless word obviously but here I think in the in the lab as we brought

17:20

people together um for us one of the most interesting um uh Explorations that is that has been

17:27

happening in the different projects is how the different uh creatives relate to

17:35

the idea of technology and how how they want to position their work in in

17:40

relation to technology um it’s not that we thought when people came together that we just expected them

17:46

to be building Bots or whatever but I think we noticed a real um

17:51

uh you know a kind of resistance to kind of push against um the idea of first producing and I

17:59

wonder how how you um think about that tension in this

18:04

project and maybe your practice more broadly as well um

18:10

kind of the shifting definition of technology and actually making yeah so I

18:15

think what this project helped me articulate was um

18:21

that my definite definition of technology is

18:27

is the way we do things so I want to say methodology but it’s the you know some

18:34

very specific Technologies are for example like Lakota Linguistics and what

18:40

that does to time um and because the Lakota Linguistics the very specific technology of

18:47

the past or the present or one-tense and so that really radically transforms the way you make things

18:54

um if in the past and the present are simultaneous so

18:59

um but I think you know what I learned from my colleagues uh were other

19:05

Technologies like the technology of uh consultation

19:11

um where this constant Loop is

19:16

not is a you would think it would be a given and a lot of spaces but it’s not

19:23

it’s a really specific technology to be able to reach back to your community and

19:28

figure out how to what they need um another really specific technology again is that this idea of of governance

19:36

and uh thinking of things seeing that

19:42

spiritual processes and Community processes are are linked

19:47

um and you know the way we the process of including ethics and creating things

19:53

is is a really intense technology that is so complicated

19:58

uh and and I think the way you know one of the recent disturbing things I I was

20:06

learning about the way Facebook is trying to include a governance model like the Supreme Court and an eerily

20:13

sounded like this dystopian version of Alicia’s idea

20:19

of a Council of Elders for her envisioning of the almanac and uh

20:26

it’s it’s got the similar you know and that’s really what these processes help

20:32

us analyze you know governance okay we’ve got governance as a technology okay Facebook’s got a governance

20:38

technology Alicia’s imagined future Almanac has a governance technology why

20:43

is one ethical and the other one unethical and that is the real that’s where we can

20:49

get down to what the actual technology is uh governance is not obviously necessarily ethical

20:56

um you know and that’s the thing that kind of drives this this thought forward

circulating ideas

21:02

yeah I uh what’s interesting there um

21:07

uh that that I I kind of wanted to talk about in our conversation um is you know uh well one of our

21:15

motivations for instance for having these conversations um was to try and think about more

21:22

nuanced ways of of uh circulating and sharing ideas that have emerged in in

21:29

and around the lab and partially because we’ve been thinking about and in

21:35

discussions with the different participants how um the inappropriate translating certain

21:42

ideas through different Technologies uh seems right that that they’re I I very

21:48

much agree with these different kind of uh ways in which we think of say bureaucratic Technologies and

21:54

administrative Technologies and all of that systems of of doing things

22:00

um and in in in our case here as we faced the the sort of combination of

22:06

certain part of the project was how do we how do we circulate and share the ideas and the knowledge of the project

22:13

and what is it what does it mean to put it into these different forms and how that transforms it so like

22:20

um I’m not sure what exactly my question is there maybe around the idea of like

22:25

um you know in your case there is a is this container of links of a net like a

22:32

node on a network um and but so much of that is also bound up

22:39

in the people who are in involved in it right that there’s a like uh the embodied knowledge

22:46

the knowledge that is that is with those people is really important and how do we how do we think about uh

22:54

creating the bridges between these the digital technologies that are ubiquitous around us and the kind of uh embodied

23:01

knowledge and the people that we work with and are participating in projects

23:06

way too complicated and fragmented question

23:12

no that makes sense I mean I think um of all the ideas that came up I mean um

23:18

it I really I mean Alicia can speak for herself but you know she had this um

23:24

that she came up with this we talked about this Council of Elders she was actually she called it like Committee of shamans that was rotating where there’s

23:30

someone to carry the first generation of knowledge every time

23:35

um and you know this is a real featuring to say that when we we make something and this comes back to the models I’ve

23:42

worked on for how to build anything ethically is uh when we have flows of

23:50

protocol do we have someone to connect it back like what what do what what does

23:56

this thing that we’re making technology or not this thing we’re making something we wanted it to be good and we want it

24:02

to be ethical and useful and and and address needs do is it constantly

24:08

connected to the needs that need to be met is it connected to the people whose needs to

24:13

be met this is like I mean this is how we could take Facebook uh as this example where they’re not

24:19

necessarily connected to the people whose needs are being met or not met but and that’s kind of what’s helpful

24:26

about this to say okay needs here are the needs and is there always someone who’s there to care for

24:34

um different communities needs and I and I think that’s what’s important about getting folks together to make new

24:39

things when you know the word diversity gets thrown around a lot and people and

24:44

it has some weird a racial and like gender gloss now but

24:50

it’s not about that it’s about the extreme diversity of philosophy and knowledge that’s possible

24:56

when you build new things like who’s this going to serve and how will it

25:02

serve their needs and so I mean the one thing that came out of this that it was

25:07

very obvious was that I feel constantly especially when I teach now I teach

25:13

music of native North America at Cal arts and the number and I tried it’s so difficult

25:19

to explain how extreme the diversity of languages and thoughts there are

25:25

everywhere there were everywhere because there’s a lot of languages and cultures that have been lost but they’re still

25:32

there at even I think California is a great example because there’s like like an extra 500 languages or something and

25:39

who knows how many dialects I but that is a lot of different ways of thinking

25:45

um so when we think about this framework and

25:50

that’s why when I zoomed out and was like okay needs me to be met this has to be a framework because the

25:58

every Community has different needs and would and would hopefully it can is it

26:03

possible to build a tool that can be flexible enough um can have governance built in enough

26:08

for each Community um but still can have some sort of link between them

26:14

um so that’s my question that I’m left with you know well I wonder if that

flexibility

26:21

um leads to another question I had about um around this idea of circulating and

26:27

sharing knowledge is at the end there you were sort of saying about you know

26:32

um can it be flexible enough to serve um I don’t know every Community is but

26:39

the flexibility and who who who uh knowledge gets circulated to or who

26:45

resources get circulated to and I and I’m thinking about like how

26:51

um you know often types of uh Were Meant to sort of circulate like ideas or elements of a

27:00

project that we’ve worked on into some textual form or documentation that is shared and that that’s supposed to

27:06

basically the decontextualization of the knowledge like taking it out of its context and away from its person and I

27:13

wonder um if if you’ve thought about how flexible does it have to be like is is there

27:20

actually a a parameter on which there are sort of um

27:25

I don’t know what the right word is standards or ideas that need to be met in order for this tool to fit this

27:31

flexibility but not so flexible is to serve everyone but still has a specific uh or a wide range but not so wide as to

27:40

be let’s just sort of Fall Apart yeah I mean I can only go off I mean

27:45

this I don’t we we couldn’t but there was no decision to come to as a collective but I can say in my future

27:51

imagining of of a framework would be that the bumpers are there to facilitate

27:59

each community’s vision of good good and ethical protocol so

28:06

um I can’t imagine it’s like is it should it be a requirement for all communities to have governance

28:13

structures um for their tool should it be necessary for all communities to have a way to

28:19

address the material use that that happens when they use their Technologies

28:25

such as like carbon and um you know is it necessary to

28:33

you know all those all those are all those imagined protocols streams

28:39

necessary for each community and maybe or maybe not but

28:44

I think that it’s possible to set up a framework that could allow people to use to utilize

28:50

those yeah I mean that’s very vague but I I do think it’s possible maybe not right now

28:57

but I think it is possible to make a tool that can be flexible enough for for

29:03

people and their needs yeah and to allow them to to do that yeah is it partly

tools

29:09

about a kind of um uh that at the core of it is a sort

29:15

of positive constructive desire like that the tools um if there’s maybe a sort of

29:20

self-selecting technique in the sense that the the the the core element of the

29:25

of the tool that you’re thinking about uh allows people to um to to uh people are attracted to it

29:35

because they want to um engage with the ideas that are at the core of it and so it kind of already

29:41

selects a certain kind of uh ethic that brings it to and brings people to the project

29:48

I’m not sure I think that the people who brought to the project I mean I I’d have to survey the people who came to the the

29:55

second public Workshop but I think people came because they

30:02

what people shared was they have I mean this is what happened people are full of fear they they feel like they’re not

30:09

getting resources to put people around them are probably getting even fewer and they want to

30:16

say their piece about what their needs are um it was actually really difficult for

30:21

the people in the public Workshop to do future imaginings and it’s because it’s

30:26

so it’s so hard to not to imagine your needs being met in this world actually

30:33

so I found that I think when people I think the people that I invited to the

30:40

original the the smaller Workshop are people I know who already do this

30:45

practice or are very Advanced and they they are they built their own Library already um some of those people

30:51

but I think that it’s letting people articulate their

30:57

needs um it just it’s the theme that comes back over and over and it’s the same issue

31:03

that uh we’re dealing with when we’re because we’ve done all this publication and talking about

31:09

um AI but uh we it’s it’s just a theory because we’re

31:16

just talking about protocols to the possible building of AI but what becomes clear to me is that we haven’t figured

31:21

out we haven’t started the process of being like okay we’re building AI what what is it needed for

31:27

um and that’s the same thing with this almond app okay so I can’t assume everyone’s needs but I can

31:34

give them the tools to organize themselves I think that’s I mean take

31:39

lots of inspiration taking from the way um activists create organizational tools and they’re not necessarily saying this

31:45

is how you organize they’re saying um uh these are the Frameworks that are working for us you should try them too

31:53

can you um Talk a bit more about the how you saw

31:58

the relationship between some of those ethical Frameworks around building computer building Ai and how that

32:06

dialogue happened for you with this project and and that previous research or that ongoing research

32:13

yeah so I mean so it’s just protocols and artificial intelligence working

32:19

group and position paper and um you know this is the global research

32:26

assistant so I was helping organize and bring folks together internationally to meet in Hawaii in uh 2019 and the the

32:37

thing that I I learned so much because Jason Lewis my advisor and who was the

32:43

lead on this project was uh had already done many many Community indigenous

32:48

Community workshops especially with youth and so the it was very clear what kind of protocols

32:56

or the basic Frameworks of bringing indigenous folks together in a good way

33:01

um but you know we learned way more in Hawaii because um Hawaiian folks have really clear

33:07

especially if you could visit um New Zealand very clear Protocols of how you meet and

33:14

um and they tell you very clearly so it’s really nice because we were able to have an office ceremony and introduce

33:19

ourselves for a really long time um and not even begin to think until like

33:25

you know we’re almost halfway through because those steps were so necessary and so I learned that those were how and

33:32

we were going to articulate some in a very intense idea of the future

33:37

we had to start it takes a really long time um and so I learned a lot from that and

33:44

I’ve been trying in these workshops and the ones with Alicia uh and they’re just

33:49

in class just to really try to figure out okay what are this we want to have

33:54

these amazing new ideas about new technologies the almanac the AI just an artwork

34:02

like what neces what steps and even in my own art practice like there are what

34:07

are the preliminary steps that make new knowledge and good new knowledge

34:13

um and what can I skip because like oh I don’t have time to introduce everybody

34:18

in this way or oh we skipped that and it didn’t work this time but I I again it’s

34:25

like I really am I think that the methodology for creating something new um is more important than

34:33

because we’ve seen we’re using the tools that are made to like the methodology is

34:38

just to sell as things um but we I don’t think we often get to

34:43

use tools that are made to help us

34:49

um like as you as like beans yeah what you mentioned time I think and is that

slowness

34:55

that’s that idea of slowness um as well like I think it’s come up a

35:01

number of times in our conversation of like uh the space of of introduction where uh how important that is in order

35:10

to to get to the thinking part um and you know it’s it my I it must be

35:16

very difficult to um uh to try to maintain this Vision on

35:22

slowness in obviously uh a society and a group of technologies that is like

35:29

constantly um built around speed and and and engagement that this like

35:36

um I mean even the idea that you mentioned at the top of of of napping like using the technology of

35:43

Engagement to connect but actually to slow down and yeah I mean that’s I mean when I’m want

35:52

to learn more about is there’s a when we really look at okay so we want to have good we want to have ethical new

35:58

knowledge we want to make new things that are that do good things but um the way we’re doing it is in this

36:05

specific way of doing things of of but if I look at

36:10

the way uh other traditions of making other epistemological Traditions you

36:16

know one of them is very clearly dreaming and you know you dream something and then you you know how to

36:23

do it and you know I I know lots of different people who do lots of different ways of dreaming my my partner

36:29

and his father they and his his father more so Dave ronenberg he built

36:34

experimental airplanes and when he sleeps he solves problems I don’t think this man rests but he solves complete

36:41

difficult impossible engineering problems in his sleep every night and

36:46

it’s crazy and then and my partner does that too you know Saul wakes up with the

36:52

answer and I’ve heard about that but but there’s other forms I mean the traditional form so in um uh Lakota

36:58

culture there’s uh you really you need to dream um certain designs in order to make them

37:05

um we have something called the double woman cult where you or this woman she says powerful figure who delivers you

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things that must be made and you are absolutely you absolutely are committed your responsibility to your dreams to

37:20

create them and you know that’s where I see I mean Trisha Hersey’s nap Ministry

37:26

is so inspiring it’s really for black folks to say like you you don’t have to work yourself uh to the Bone you can

37:34

rest and and so that’s what’s so inspiring and it’s um

37:40

you know that’s what I’m I think in the original DL workshops I was I was really

37:46

drawn to this idea where I was like oh my communities in many communities that I know don’t actually participate fully

37:53

in capitalism they kind of pretend to participate in capitalism but

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are and why is that because time to rest time to dream time to have visions

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because the way I was doing the dream having the dream resting long enough so you can have a dream

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is necessary in order to make something’s never been made before [Music]

38:17

that’s wonderful yeah I mean it makes me think about

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um uh you know as a young human I was you

38:27

know fairly activist oriented uh Anarchist animal rights activist and

38:35

there was a kind of um against-ness right a kind of like uh

38:40

being inspired by thinkers of revolutionary thinkers and and but I I

38:46

think a lot about that in the current moment um as we tried to think of other ways of

38:53

creating a kind of slower more percolating Revolution like it what if

38:59

these this transformation doesn’t look like the transformations of modernity in the 20th century but look like we Foster

39:08

different relations with each other and different ways of thinking about you know creation development technological

39:15

development organizations that isn’t sort of the destructive impulses of the

39:21

20th century but is something completely different I don’t know what that that is but I think it it uh I think a lot about

39:28

it in terms of those kinds of ideas that you’re mentioning about care

39:34

about rest about how do we sort of cultivate that uh and that it has much

39:41

more power than it’s often given credit for yeah I agree I think that becomes clear

39:47

when you ask people to really sit down and imagine a future where their needs

39:53

are met and one of the prompts that Alicia and I do is ask people to uh go as far into the future as it takes

40:00

for you to have those needs be met and so for some people they can they can be like I’m 10 years

40:07

um I’ll have X Y and Z but for other people it’s like in a thousand years

40:12

um X Y and Z and then in 10 000 years after the Super Volcano blows that’s

40:17

mine that’s my favorite one to do after the Super Volcano um wipes out everything and

40:24

re-animates the Earth that that’s a little extreme but the um I’m sure some

40:30

people always have apocalyptic Visions though they can’t like you know uh it’s hard to avoid them I mean there’s a

40:36

really great Hawaiian future Psalm and Enos who who imagines um who can who has really this amazing

40:43

skill of imagining like 50 000 years into the future and it’s really amazing but the you know we ask people to do

40:51

that because you know when I one of my one of the participants was a cousin of mine Clementine Bordeaux

40:57

in one of the I think the dreaming workshop and uh I you know asking her

41:03

what her because she’s Lakota you know what the future is for her and it was

41:09

really I mean it centers around our you know most intense kin the uh the bison

41:15

and and having bison uh be come back and and which can never really come back the

41:22

way they were because the the genetics are gone uh but you know having the

41:28

Bison come back is a really specific vision and actually my vision is is even

41:34

smaller than that I just want to have a multi-generational household that is like you know healthy and and functional

41:41

that’s really what a joy that would be and what a gift but that might not be

41:47

possible for all of my relatives in this lifetime you know we might we might need

41:52

20 50 years to get there so you know there’s so many different types of needs

42:00

and Futures and um and they really change you know

42:05

person to person and but hopefully they equal with some some kind of hole

Future

42:13

um I wonder if uh if we can turn towards the future of the of the project as you

42:20

see it do you have uh in more perhaps more in the immediate uh unfolding uh

42:27

where do you see um and how do you see the work of the of the of the project over the next

42:33

um you know six months to a year do you see it uh needing more time to kind of ferment in this current state or or is

42:40

it sort of gaining a kind of momentum yeah I think uh sadly I have to do my

42:48

PhD work so I have I’m like trying I don’t know anything about that kind of thing uh I have to like actually focus on but

42:57

it’s nice because hopefully it’ll it’ll Aid everything else because I’ll get to do a deep dive into how a specific

43:03

groups of people make new knowledge um together with non-humans that’s my PhD work yeah and so I have to do that for

43:10

like two years um maybe hopefully not longer hopefully shorter but uh you know no promises but

43:18

the uh I would really like this project to if once I have the capacity

43:25

to get some programmers because I think that I think that a framework software I

43:32

the one of my favorites piece of software right now is Paul shatane and it’s um it just it just allows you to

43:38

send numbers from one kind of video or audio software to the other it just

43:44

links things it’s just a linking situation it’s not as crazy as Max MSP and it’s not it’s not like coding in

43:52

Python it’s just like and I think I love that program because it’s easy for me to

43:57

use and and I don’t have to do any coding and that is kind of what I see as

44:03

possible where you can where there’s some sort of Hub that you can build yourself that lets all of these

44:09

information flows send to each other and numbers I know are

44:15

fraught worried about mediation and data all the time but yeah um but I love that program yeah I I

44:22

think I mean that’s really interesting and I think um you know I I I think

44:29

um I see some you know this nugget of some of the interesting parts of the earliest conversations that we were

44:35

having when you came to the workshop here of like you know I was thinking about well so much that exists already

44:41

and trying to understand okay well how um we don’t need to reinvent a resource

44:48

thing but what what you’re articulating there is so fascinating because it’s

44:54

about giving away to make a personalized kind of a personalized sounds overly

45:00

individualistic but a more customized resource thing how do we pull together

45:06

nodes of information um but that for our for ourselves and

45:13

for others around us for our community or whatever so the tools to kind of that that really interesting way to think

45:18

about that kind of flex flexibility or customizability whenever we I and I mean there’s even a

45:25

poorness of the language around it because as we try to talk about it I know for myself you trying to avoid the

45:33

association with some of the sort of Silicon Valley you know bro development

45:38

culture that dominates so many tools um that even like a word like

45:43

customizable which just kind of opens up this question of it feeling like features on a thing that you buy and

45:50

that’s we’re trying to get so even trying to get to the language to talk about it is sometimes sometimes

45:55

challenging um well uh this has been a really great

46:01

uh conversation I really want to thank you for your for your time and and uh

46:07

and I it’s really wonderful to hear about the Arc of this this project and I’m glad that it’s still sort of

46:13

fermenting and keeping going so thank you I’m I’m so excited to share

46:19

like they’re so and I’ve just said it a little bit and there’s we generated so much information it’s so overwhelming

46:26

and even looking at it it’s like it’s like hundreds of sticky notes and thousands of like it’s like so much

46:32

information so it’s nice to try to like say something about it today so thank you for having me thanks very much

46:40

bye-bye

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