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foreign

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[Music]

Introduction

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welcome we’re here with Macy sui artist and foresight strategist she primarily

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works with the studio from later she has a background in fine art has been a

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cultural worker at places like the power plant in Toronto Macy is also a licensed lawyer a

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background in law where she had a particular interest in intellectual property

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so Macy has a really wide range of experience that she brought to the digital economies lab we’re really

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excited to have her today to talk about the project offer need machine that

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they’ve been working on at the lab how are you doing today welcome good how

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are you thanks for having me pretty good um let’s start with the the basics uh do

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you want to tell us a little bit about the O M project um how how is it now because I know it’s

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changed a lot what is the project in its current state of prototyping

What inspired the project

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I mean initially the project stemmed off of a little bit of an obsession with

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mushrooms and myxelium networks and how natural

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systems are able to transfer detect and transfer resources amongst its networks

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and we were curious as to how we could maybe learn from these systems to think

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about ways that knowledge sharing and resources could be

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transferred among artist communities we know there is already a culture of

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generosity um between artists and creators mostly out of necessity out of survival

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um and it’s you know exists in usually more

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local scales and so we were curious as to whether

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um technology or digital platforms could enable

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um a wider spread of this kind of um

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resource sensing as well as transfer

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um and and so the the kind of hypothesis going into our

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research or our study our exploration was um whether

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there could be something that that could function as almost this decentralized network of reciprocity and to really

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think about um value of artistic labor in a way that

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is um not so much around market economics but how can we

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help each other support each other and almost create

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Collective collaboration and work together in a way that

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repurpose precariousness amongst artists that’s interesting one of the key

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factors is if I understand this is not necessarily exchange as in one-to-one

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exchange but that that’s the key to this idea of sort of decentralized reciprocity that there’s like you both

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contribute to it but might also draw from it and there’s there’s a kind of

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a larger nebulous network of of this that would be built out of it yeah that

Ideal hope for the project

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was I guess our ideal hope in that perhaps

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um some of the values that that already exists within like I was saying this culture of generosity amongst creators

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um could be more widespread widespread could be better leverage could could

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become you know a acknowledged system of its own and so we were

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um drawing a lot of inspiration from solidarity economy principles uh gift economy

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um practices to think about could something exist where it’s not

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yeah it’s not about this like quit pro quo exchange is not about it’s not transactionary but it’s more

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about um this almost like kinship structure

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where um you know you you know you have others are supporting you that that have your

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back and um if they’re if you have a need um it would be fulfilled or it would be

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um satisfied in a sense or you would you would get the resources needed

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um and and so the idea was to kind of uh

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stem off of a simple expectation of like a one-hour gift

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um so that you’re you’re giving in order to partake and in that sense you’re also

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embodying some of the values that we hope this network or the system could

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um promote so that’s sort of the seed entry point that of um your initiation your first step into

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the network is to is to make a contribution I

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I mean I think one of the most um interesting things and one of the

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most challenging things that that the project has taken on is is rethinking how we share and rethinking in

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particular value you know how how do you untangle

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monetary value from its sort of hold on our systems of exchange that’s like a

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really quite a wicked problem uh can you talk a bit about how you guys have have

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faced that challenge and thought about that process yeah I mean it’s it’s very hard and I

Anticapitalist alternative

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feel like more and more so it’s an expectation of artists to be everything

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to be you know the business person the pr person and also to be the creative

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and um and then and have your practice

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um so it’s it’s a system that’s really hard to topple

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um but I think we’re that’s part of kind of what we wanted to

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explore is whether um whether like an economy of care could

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become something that not replaces but um could be adjacent or

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um to to yeah to topple a little bit like to

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to become this anti-capitalist alternative um and it’s interesting though you said

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something there about the idea that um like the uh the idea of maybe eroding more

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than topple or like or even just coexisting with something that

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um Can Shore up uh the care that that that is needed like we need multiple

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systems working at once in order for us to find um a more fulfilled life right we can’t

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simply have one system and then this is kind of a way of maybe formalizing some of those elements and and I think these

Informal networks

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I mean these already exists among um you know among different communities

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within especially within like marginalized communities um racialized communities because they

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have had to survive against um institutions and um

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systems of Oppression um so how do we

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um how do we amplify those practices and how do we better recognize and

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acknowledge um those values so that yeah it’s almost like can it seep through and

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and like you’re saying it erode um these other expectations you know

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um around always producing around always being busy always

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um having to make and create um and yet not having

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um uh not being acknowledged for it and not being you know compensated properly and

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also constantly struggling to find resources to continue your practice I

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you mentioned um these informal networks like how so much of it um in some ways exists

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um I I wondered about you know as you as we we sort of look towards

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um the impact of uh Silicon Valley and particularly some of the most significant sort of corporate players uh

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Airbnb lift they really have

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Excel that sort of refining a platform that could monetize

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informal networks you know Couchsurfing was a thing before ride sharing was a thing before and even had some

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technological interfacing but they really came along and figured out how to

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monetize these informal networks with with you know incredible platform design

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um how important is it for the o m to kind of uh Shore up against this

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monetization like how do you is it is it possible to to try and you know prevent

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that kind of monetization or or is it something that you worry about

Time as currency

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I don’t know I think when it comes to monetization sometimes it it shifts the values a

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little bit or a lot and I think with o m the aim is for it

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not to um not to be rooted in monetization I

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think I mean for us there is or our hypothesis are like our seed has

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time as a certain currency um that that in itself we’re also still

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um exploring and contemplating as whether it’s effective or appropriate obviously

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there’s been really interesting models around time making um

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um but when we think about an hour of somebody’s time it can there there’s

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such a spectrum of what that means right um you know

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according to somebody with certain needs an hour might not be enough at all or

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you know there’s just very different subjective perspectives

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as to what an arrow time means um and in that sense

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time as currency could also go down

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essentially like a monetization route um but yeah it’s hard because there’s a

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really interesting I think in uh Kofi and I’s conversation maybe we were talking about the subjectivity of the

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experience of time and how interesting that can be even though the unit of one hour is so tied to a kind of Labor idea

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to think about how one’s perspective on an hour of like well if I was to donate

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an hour there’s something I’m giving in terms of value but I’m I will frame a

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giving around something that you know I may have a different perception of how that time works I think that’s a really

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complicated and interesting part of the project totally and it’s something that

Need offer machine

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we’re definitely grappling with and um I think ultimately

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it’s the project has kind of gone to a direction where it’s more about how do we

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enable people to feel safe enough or um to feel like they have a certain agency

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to be able to articulate their needs or even to identify and then

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um articulate their needs so that hence like the need offer machine so

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that once those needs are um are identified they can then be met in a

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way that it’s appropriate and suitable and effective for the person who needs

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um need to be met so that’s interesting so you’re you’re talking about the idea

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that in some ways in order to go into the platformer to

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make use of the platform there’s kind of a almost a service that comes for the artist in the sense that they have to

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really articulate what they what they need and so how do you think uh how are you

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thinking about that in terms of interface like how what kind of design helps people through that process

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of thinking about what they need um I mean there are a few things and I

Rules of engagement

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think even before getting into like the interface or the design itself it’s it’s almost like thinking about

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um the The Rules of Engagement in a sense or like the terms of service that

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everyone like cringes at but how can we

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um uh uh it’s almost like what are the guidelines or that can be collectively

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made in the sense so that people would be motivated to

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um uphold it and or continue shaping it um so that you know when they are

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joining this platform or when they’re joining the space or gathering in the space

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um they would yeah they would uphold these values they would

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um behave a certain way they would feel safer they would

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um they would feel like they yeah they have the agency to be themselves

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um so I think thinking about what those guidelines might be and almost but also

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not be um not be uh

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like not dictated in a way how can it come from how can it be like a

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collective work how can it be generated collectively or how can it continue to evolve

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um as more and more people participate if it comes to that

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um so so here’s this question of trust right that’s one of the big challenges I

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mean any platform that is around um you know exchange and sharing

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um it’s it’s its biggest challenge seems to be that idea of building trust and some of those corporate platforms we

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talked about there’s there’s sort of these you know kind of legal structures there’s also financial and penalization

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and all of this but that seems quite antithetical to what what you guys are doing so how have you been considering

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trust and I wonder too in that last comment you’re saying like do trust and scale have a sort of relationship is

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there a scale that that certain types of of ways of thinking about trust are more

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suited to yeah I mean I think with those platforms

Trust and risk

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um the idea is that the the people who are on it are essentially

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consumers um but how can we think of

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um participants as like co-conspirators or um does not put that user or consumer

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lens to it but in thinking more about the relationship of people within a

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platform um and I mean trust is a really powerful

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and also like renewable human resource um and

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I think at the core of it is really about feeling like you are able to make

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yourself vulnerable to another person or another entity and

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um I guess feeling like whoever you’re interacting with is also being vulnerable to you

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um and obviously there’s like an element of risk in it um and I think sometimes in the other

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platforms that risk is like paired up against convenience or

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um you know being able to to do things quickly or

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um yeah okay have you seen we’re sort of using the the straw human of the

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punching bag of this corporate structures um what are the kinds of projects that

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have inspired you in in the research that you’ve been doing along the way like are there models from within

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culture or are you looking to adapt uh models existing models to a cultural

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context how have you been thinking about those parts there are different things that we’ve looked at obviously

Mentorship

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mentorship programs um or mentorship uh models as one

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um or a lot of asynchronous learning models are happening where you know

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people are contributing to study together learn together and facilitate you know conversations or

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hard conversations together there is um yeah like Gatherings at

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um a really cool Collective organization uh for example is a virtual Care lab

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um based in LA and they’ve been doing a lot of interesting things in terms of

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gatherings that’s rooted in care but also in providing like a platform for artists

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creatives other practitioners to experiment and

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um and knowledge share so I think especially with

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um you know the impact of covid and things going online there’s been a lot of

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interesting community building that’s happening in unexpected spaces I think we’ve been looking at a lot of these

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different types of models um and there are others that have like

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sorry go ahead an openness to using technology in unprescribed ways I think

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that that’s definitely hopefully something we can carry forward in a wider community that they’re that there

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is a sort of been a forced digital education for a lot of people

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um that you know has led to doesn’t necessarily mean not like a utopic thing

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but that there is just a little bit of increase in in a wider range of digital

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literacy meaning that we can maybe repurpose things in new ways you

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mentioned the the gatherings in LA and and um in your project I think I always kind

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of assumed it as a digital Network that

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could you know being the sort of country territory that we are is quite expansive

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but do you think that that is the the the way that you would like it to start

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it out or do you see it as having to have a physical human interface like

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um in in space meeting component of it as well I

Exchange

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mean I’m definitely biased in the sense that I prefer

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um in person or maybe I’m just completely zoomed out but

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um there is a bit of magic in in an in-person Gathering but I’ve also

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seen an experience myself um ways that online Gatherings have been

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facilitated um in a way where you are feeling that connection and that bond with those

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people who are sharing that space with you um so

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it would be interesting to kind of um explore that uh toggling between the in

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person and the online space and and also what other third spaces might emerge yeah yeah do

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you when you guys think of the kinds of exchange um I mean I think

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readily you know available ideas for me are like you know I think we’ve

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even mentioned them before like bookkeeping or you know some kind of administrative perception or editing a

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video or you know there’s um is is that where the place to start

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is the things that are sort of really easily transferable

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um and maybe a more complicated question is like is is it a bit of a cliche that

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there’s like an overabundance of certain kinds of skills within the artist community at a con significant lack like

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there’ll be one person donating all the bookkeeping and there’ll be a whole bunch of people wanting to give

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Photoshop experience I mean I would hope that it would be more than these very

Hard conversations

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specific heart skills I would hope that it would facilitate car like harder

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conversations that maybe creatives don’t normally have amongst themselves or

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maybe it’s between like culture work or even a practitioner within an

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institution um and an artist um and

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yeah I think we’re increasingly interested in digging into how power

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dynamics can be not manage but um

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what’s the word I guess like knowledge but also

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um uh

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not reverse but I don’t know balanced out a little bit or

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um within the interactions of um people in the network or on the platform

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um so I think I think part of um my own personal

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um aim is to have this platform be something where people are able to have hard

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conversations to think about um what institutional biases there are or

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what other types of biases exist within um

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um artistic communities and adjacent

24:13

um organizations spaces um I wonder if sometimes

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um the sometimes those things uh happen in parallel like I think of the idea of the

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way uh cooking or sharing food or uh you know working with tools which are really

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pragmatic uh things uh often have a parallel tract of uh you know sometimes

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laughter sometimes Joy sometimes tears sometimes just heartfelt connections

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that when we’re we’re somehow doing something we release ourselves to have a

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different kind of connection with others so I wonder if even fostering some of

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the like that the two coexist I guess that fostering some of those pragmatic exchanges

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alongside those things happen more significant things that you don’t you

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don’t push or Force yeah for sure I like that

Expectations

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um I can definitely see that happening as well and I think yeah we’ve talked to

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um different people who have you know put out interesting mentorship models and

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um learning insights from how those might form and you know whether it’s

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more rigid guidelines where you know expectations are set like from an

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organizational point of view or whether it’s like much more emergent from the participants themselves

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I think I think agency within how

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um participants Define their own expectations with each other is really

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important um but also for the platform to you know have resources for them to do that in a

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way that makes sense for them or in a way that’s accessible to them is

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equally as important if we go back a little bit to the strategies of actually arriving at

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some of your thinking at this point in the project it was really interesting to watch

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um you guys as a group form around very esoteric ideas of thinking about

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biomimicry and and the inspiration from uh even specific ways that as you said

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mushrooms organize and communicate and forests as well uh

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did you did you you put off a long time thinking really

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um like practically about the design you know sort of like the UI or the in

27:03

technological infrastructure inside was that and does that continue to be a kind of deliberate strategy to try and get

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somewhere more interesting and more unseen or is it’s just kind of like you

27:19

still just was it just kind of another kind of looseness what was the motivation there I think it’s just it’s

Blueprint

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not wanting it to be solution focused because I think we acknowledge that we have so

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many assumptions right now and I certainly don’t feel like I’m we’re even

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at a point where we’re able to you know blueprint maybe an experience

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um I feel like we kind of started off very generative and took you

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know inspiration from a wide variety of things and then we kind of came up with

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a concept and um now we’re testing the concept A little bit in terms of just speaking to

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different people seeing what other models might currently exist or have existed in history

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um and just trying to derive insights from that and I know it’s like a very

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um privileged position to be able to do the research that way

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um but and I’m grateful for that opportunity um I I for us it was very exciting to

28:36

see someone taking uh take the group taking the challenge in that way and in a way that we hoped

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um the the lab would offer that like to to to you know to have a lot of uh

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terrain to move around in and explore and experiment and see you know uh and

28:56

fail in some ways right to think of things that might go wrong uh and even try some things out

Shifting concept

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um yeah and I think I think the concept is shifting I mean even the idea of the one

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hour gift has we’ve heard a lot from um different people from different

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communities where you know just like questioning that hour um so we’re like would this even work

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I’m not sure um and what other ways would be more appropriate

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um so yeah I think I mean I guess it’s so it’s interesting

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to kind of just constantly to utilize research to be like okay we have we have a concept like how can it

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be broken how can we break it and then how can we rebuild it um to something that is more resilient

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um yeah what uh if we can go back to the question of uh technology

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um and because I think it’s something we’ve talked about with everyone uh in the in these conversations about the

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digital economies lab that you know we proposed a lot of Frameworks that

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were very Tech centered um and a lot of the participants and kind

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of pushed back against that um and what emerged in some ways was

30:21

maybe a a sort of binary between sort of the idea of human-centered design versus

30:27

Technology Center design or maybe solution-centered design maybe that was some of the binary there but do you do

30:33

you think do you think that’s actually a useful and real binary or do you think like did you yourself feel that desire

30:41

to make something human-centered or was it kind of just a a different way of

30:47

thinking that these things are actually quite entangled I

30:54

mean increasingly I’m also just like against the focus on human-centered I I’m more

Humancentered design

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interested in what’s beyond that because I find being human-centered you’re ignoring

31:09

um all the deeply entrenched ties that we have you know with our environment with other beings with you know spaces

31:17

um so I mean something that’s come up um is like the idea of society-centered

31:23

design where you are acknowledging you’re designing for the collective

31:28

you’re designing for a broader context of systems that we know as humans we impact

31:34

and in rethinking kind of our social contract with um with each other with

31:40

spaces with other living things um and also the the notion of like more

31:45

than human um so I think with human centered design there

31:52

is you are I guess in a sense going from

31:57

um the ground up a little bit in in um in paying attention to

32:05

um to needs that you observe um in people or in

32:12

um in interactions between people and then technology becomes the tool to to

32:18

think of what would meet those needs or what would uh help or support those needs

32:25

um but I think increasingly we need to think Beyond just a human

32:31

um into our relationships with other I love what you’re kind of describing as a

32:37

kind of multi-scaler design like that neither of these should be that

32:43

exclusive either right that there there’s a sort of structural or systems thinking but that’s that can’t be the

32:50

exclusive mode that you need to be able to switch through to the scales and think about how these things interplay

32:57

and and and create different different outcomes and like kind of moving to

33:04

different perspectives zooming in and zooming out to see all of these different ways of thinking

33:09

[Music] um but yeah it can get very messy sometimes and muddled and I feel like

Messy

33:17

that’s that’s where we’re at right now um in in the stage of this exploration

33:25

um I was just listening to uh an interview with Keller Easter easterling uh and her

33:31

new book medium design uh and they were talking about that kind of uh that

33:37

messiness right that uh that idea of if it does get messy you know if you’re

33:45

working with through all these scales but if you release the idea that you have a very specific solution that will

33:53

be solved by your project but rather be more open to flexible and all different

34:00

kinds of outcomes then that’s not that messiness is not as much of an issue

Funding

34:07

mm-hmm and sometimes it’s along with the scale is like um could we zoom in uh to a specific

34:13

element or a specific issue as a start and you know

34:20

um put that as a focus and then Zoom back out or could we you know with

34:26

respect to that specific issue um put out something that we could test but being open-minded that you know it

34:34

could go in different directions and and keep our biases in check and and think

34:40

about how our assumptions should be broken so uh

34:45

you guys uh came through the the the Del and actually have moved on to another

34:52

stage got some funding from the Canada council’s digital strategy fund which is really really exciting so to where can

34:59

you tell a bit about where the project is and where it might be headed and even though we’re recording this we won’t

35:06

hold you to that Arc but um we’re I think we’re yeah we just got

35:13

the news which is very exciting and very grateful um so I think we’re essentially

35:21

revisiting [Music] um everything that’s been done so far in

35:26

terms of um you know secondary research um in looking at different models as

35:32

well as uh interviews that we’ve had with different with artists with

35:37

cultural workers and others um to really hone in on yeah what like

35:44

is our does our concept still stand um and if not where can it what

35:51

directions can it move to um what are possible gaps or opportunities that we can move towards

35:59

and um and then kind of go from there

36:04

um I mean we still ultimately do want to build a prototype of sorts

36:12

um and I think we’re holding ourselves to the idea of a prototype and not

36:17

something that’s like pristine and you know uh very efficiently workable

36:25

um because we just we acknowledge that we’re not

36:30

um we’re still learning from everyone that we’re speaking to and from

36:35

you know what we’re encountering throughout the process um

36:41

so that’s kind of where we’re at right now um and so kind of still defining

36:49

the work plan for I guess the next um two years for it

36:55

um but excited to continue with it yeah yeah that’s great I mean I love I I like

37:03

the idea that care is also built into the process

37:10

of developing your project in the sense of this this sense of time that

37:15

um that in order to do something um that can really have an impact it it’s

37:22

okay sometimes quick Solutions are important but that it’s it’s it’s actually really important to also have

37:28

that time to develop and expand uh and uh really work on a project that will

37:34

have a sort of great foundation and a longevity so that I really respect that and what you guys have been doing

Conclusion

37:40

yeah and I think we’re also trying to embody the values that we do want to

37:47

um want whatever comes out of this to to promote and to have and to amplify

37:55

um so we’re yeah we’re utilizing like you said our own process to to think about yeah

38:01

like what are what is our own contract or agreement or guidelines for ourselves

38:07

as a team um and how how might that morph or evolve throughout

38:13

um our work together and what could we learn from our own discomfort or our own

38:20

um conflicts um and bring that into uh what we would

38:27

like to design well I I really want to thank you for taking the time and uh

38:32

working up to this uh this interview uh it’s a great great conversation it’s a

38:38

really interesting uh project and I really look forward to being around to

38:44

see it develop and hopefully participate in any way we can for sure for sure thank you thanks again

38:51

for joining us and we’ll take care thank you [Music]

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