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foreign

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[Music]

Introduction

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welcome here we are today with Kofi oduro Kofi is an artist whose work cuts

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across poetry code video music production and so much more his most

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recent project was funded by the CBC and the Canada council is an ambient Audio

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Visual Album combining performance code video poetry but also weaving which is

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really interesting I think Kofi worked on a lot of different projects during the digital economies lab but in

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particular focused on the offer need machine which is an interesting project focusing on

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and thinking through ideas of generous exchange and mutual care uh welcome Kofi

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how are you doing today I’m doing good yeah good one week one week more till

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um out of this five months partial experiment I want to say at times of being in curfew so now maybe

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you can count me that’s impressive I think I think I lost track of everything yeah just times it was one of those

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things sort of had a norm within it which is something we’re probably going to touch on later on but there’s it made

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things more peculiar and I don’t want to say interesting and like there’s interesting and interesting and it was

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more of the latter so let’s let’s uh get right into talking

Digital Economies Lab

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about the digital economies lab and your experiences here and some of the ideas that have emerged for you

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um maybe let’s just start with the uh what interested you uh in the digital

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economies lab and how your experience has been I know we threw a lot of uh

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buzzwords in the in the opening and to sort of attract ideas around technology but that’s actually been a really

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interesting part A lot of people in the Del kind of zigged against the zag of

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our technology focused elements how what interested you and how has that

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experience been well coming from like because the thing is that when it comes to my art from what a lot of people

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think is that I started with creative coding so what happened is before the creative coding where I mix music and

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animation and different things part of my art form is that I did video editing and videography for a while and

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even before then I used to do a lot of spoken word freestyle poetry so understanding that analog is still

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prevalent even if you have digital artworks was one thing that Drew me in and the buzzwords of course like

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blockchain and all that which is now fundamental because if you watch recent news a year more about like crypto coins

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volatility how some coins are skyrocketed and now if you’re into the digital art space you might have been

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here and about nfts which are really just art forms that are are not

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necessarily just art it could be anything that’s on a blockchain and a lot of artists are using this to try to

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see how they can have Smart contracts which allows artists to be paid and taught through the whole process so when

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you’re saying that people actually rebelled against technology I find it interesting that the same discussions

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are the same types of like artist Union this and that are the same type of conversations that are being said in

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many online spaces because now German because remember Dell was right before

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the pandemic so a lot of the things of like how artists are now having to use zoom having to use multiple platforms is

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something that now is being echoed naturally due to a pandemic and now

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since more people are becoming digital it’s like what does that mean for the artist like you know now if you’re a

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teacher or an artist there’s the joke then like now if you’re teaching an artist now you’re also a digital Creator by choice you probably have to set up

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all this Tech stuff probably have to know how to zoom Audio Level I was joking with my colleagues at the

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University of Ottawa saying basically all courses whether you’re painting or sculpture are actually media art courses

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now so we just basically put that Visual Arts education but now we’re talking about what you just said is our change

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in medium but now it’s like even if you’re teaching psychology or computer science or not you have to make

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engagement content because now now it’s almost like now cheap before you know how people said YouTube universe City

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now with all these changes you’re directly competing with YouTube like you’re directly competing and well maybe

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not directly but like there is a competition level of okay now now you have to make engaging content you have

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to know how to make a joke sorry like I think now now teaching at University probably became a bit of an art form as

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well more than ever yeah I basically as a professor I had to set up a feeling

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that I was setting up a YouTube channel basically for my students when you when you think of what these changes

Playing with Technology

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um like in terms of how your experience has been um uh and how you’ve seen you know uh the

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change over the course of the year that you were just referencing was it uh you know playing with

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technology that attracted you to the program and was that an expected uh was it unexpected that you you ended up in

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the in this project that was really um about care in the way that it is yeah

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I think it is but it’s ironic because let’s remember I don’t know if you remember my application form even though

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I was playing with technology I remember for the questions I actually never wrote a sentence so I remember for everything

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I actually wrote a poem

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I was like because at the story was that I’m like okay even though I’m technologist you know what I like poetry

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this is how I express myself so it’s just funny that like even though I was brought to it in technology like I still

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showed an analog ad form to express myself and even though I do creative

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coding a lot of my stuff is based on traditional Arts right spoken word

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um music music well music is both digital and not digital but it still has a very strong presence outside of the

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screen what this pandemic and all this changes

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my assimilation to different platforms and because you know like right now like

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if we go on o o m would have o and m Comfort if it wasn’t due to uh

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quarantine maybe not because that is like the offer need machine right it’s another platform yeah that

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if you think about it as a platform that is trying to cater to a particular

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subset not of the not of the population but of a mood if that makes sense like

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we’re trying to have we’re trying to nurture base it on care we can name Twitter Facebook Zoom

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Instagram gather town every platform has a mood is trying to replicate well I think that

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there’s something about the way you know the the foundational ideas of the O M

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that were emerged even before the pandemic of rethinking the idea of the network and trying to build different

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metaphors you know what happened with the the pandemic and the challenges to

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the cultural sector is uh you you had a real strong organizing Force for what

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needed to happen uh and what how do we make something that can that can foster

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care for the artistic community and create the kind of networks that were that are being severed in a whole bunch

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of ways um I wonder if if uh if you know you were you could talk a bit about how

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you were thinking about care in relation to um connecting artists resources and all

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this that’s at the core of the o m um how has that process been shaped by

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how you understand the idea of a platform and how you use Platforms in your artistic practice

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well what was interesting before I was in O M me and uh one of the other colleagues in the Dell swintec we

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actually were trying to build experiences and all that and then one thing that came to mind was that the

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problem with online stuff is that now if everything is done by an algorithm the

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chances of something random happening does not occur so we we dubbed at the

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anti-airb experience because I don’t know if you remember like before there was Airbnb

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you guess what a hotel room look like because you know we know they do the photo shoots and whatnot so you know you

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enter their hotel room you did not know anything about it like you had to do a sweep but not with Aaron B and B

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it’s not that Airbnb so it’s the same thing with like Spotify and all those you know like how we have playlists and

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Creations and everything is almost an attack on like oh wow I didn’t

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notice a lot of your experiences are not random like you know exactly what you were

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going to get and that’s what I was one thing I was thinking I’m like how do we get that Bond like you know sometimes we

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don’t like small talk because small talk on the internet sometimes can be very tedious but it is also needed right and

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and it’s and it’s an experience that I remember because I remember when I wasn’t driving my car like you know

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taking the bus even other people like you know you you’re more likely going to meet a friend or meet someone you haven’t seen in a while but the more you

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drive the less people you see then but then you have events so it’s like oh wow I haven’t seen you in a bar but so now

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imagine when you take away events you know a lot of people are not taking public transit we’re all home

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where do you get those random moments of spark and because you know uh and this is

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where the platform idea this is why when I came on o m and doing many researches with like other colleagues from other

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projects like Mary Claire Flanagan where we would experiment by going in different platforms and seeing what

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works or not it’s like Zoom is great assume it’s great for certain things but

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now it’s one of those things that like people think it’s the end all where if I’m let’s say I need to share five

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screens at the same time Discord might be better or just see because there’s multiple

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screen shares but this mentality comes from me being like being like okay like

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a creative artist but during the pandemic I remember like the first three months like last April May June

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I was doing more consultant for my fellow peers like I remember one person like how do I what can I do to get an

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exhibition and I’m like oh maybe you can try this platform it might not be perfect I remember we just went

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to like had to Break Down The Walls of her perception to be like okay not everything is going to have get the best

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thing or another person like okay you know what for your community Discord might be better than Twitter because you

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can do x y z and that’s like one of the nuances with this thing like if you ask

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me it’s like the thing about having that random interaction is that even your recommendations were more for people

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that understood you whereas I feel on the internet like anyone can Google search anything but if

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you don’t know what to search yeah you’re lost well I I wonder you know in

The Offer Need Machine

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that um one of the big differences between the kind of platforms that you’ve been referring to and a project like the

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offer need machine is that it’s being conceived of and built by um by artists and cultural workers

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um and it’s still in a very prototype stage and you’re still Lots so many ideas are are still floating around for

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it um but you know is that um like what are the strengths and and

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sort of weaknesses of this idea because on one hand it feels like particularly within the media arts we have always

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been adapting as artists right we have always been using commercial and industrial tools to try to figure out

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how we can adapt them to an artistic end um uh and and is that is that actually a

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really important thing or there’s how do you see those string strengths and weaknesses between and that was the one thing that I kept realizing that’s why I

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think it was like important for me to mention like I was doing like honestly like conversation Consulting like okay

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how do you do a live stream on IG you know how to or a painter how can people

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view my work and then it was one of those things that’s like if we’re going to build a platform which we made sure

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when we like did like some of our testing and that they cannot all be media artists we need writers involved

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we need actors because their needs are going to be dramatically different than

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what the artist is because for me I could just play platform to platform that doesn’t bug me like I never use OBS

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as much as I did during pandemic but it’s just another tool that’s like okay once you go and play around but that’s

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because of the art from that I’m part of now let’s imagine the art form

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that other people and if you’re a painter normally like this might be like an over generalization so if anyone’s

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listening sorry you know you you choose your paint colors right like you go to

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your thin I know I’m going to use this use but remember with paint unlike drying you can mix colors right

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like that’s the first thing like yo okay if there’s no baby blue as a painter if you paint it enough you

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know okay if I have blue and white I can make baby blue if you’re a graphic designer you know

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your hex codes but that’s one thing that like was the problem of with getting um like

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making a platform all that you have to realize that what is the innate knowledge or perceive to like

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presumptions of certain people and like like let’s say you go on like I

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have people tell me they don’t like Twitter and why don’t they like Twitter and I know we’re getting a bit technical but I think it is they’re like 280

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characters I cannot write a Long blog so when you’re making a platform it’s

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like sometimes you can implicitly make people think a certain way so let

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like if you like let’s say you have course how do we do this in the real world like well educate academic is a real

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world but it’s also its own world so let’s take academic a course syllabus tells you how of course they’ll assess

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the tone so it’s not only oh this assignment is due week one week two it’s also what

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words are the teacher using to describe certain things is their leniency is

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strict like there’s a tone written an online framework that you’re you’re you’re setting for what you want to

Building Trust

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happen inside well exactly I wonder if that leads into um another question that I have about

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um about growth and scale um you know that uh a lot of what the um

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the the project the O M project has been trying to focus on is

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um how do we build and build trust in order to foster care and generosity a

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trust is this really key component um so how do you set that framework

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within the platform design that’s what’s actually one of the most interesting parts of the exhibition of uh not

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exhibition of the external tests like test subject because we did interview people we talked to people that because

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at first we’re like maybe people will trust if you had a one-on-one with someone but in reality when you think

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about it people actually trust you more if they see how you react in a room of

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like-minded people think about why people like going to webinars and Conference most of the time

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you’re going to revenue not to do a one-on-one because it’s like there is an implicit trust that if I go to a

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conference let’s say a media arts I am more than likely going to meet

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other people in media arts that might have more or less experience that I can

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trust and maybe sometimes validate some of my concerns and maybe they might I might

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learn something there and there when you go online sometimes you don’t have that trust because you know there’s

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trolls there’s people that like like you know the seat because not

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everyone shows their card so so this was one of the things like the

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problem was and then when we go back to art form actors singers how do you make something that like corresponds so

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talking to people is like one of those things that like if we have a care protocol so everyone knows about terms

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of service and one of the more popular code of conducts which is similar to a TOS in a way like there’s difference

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like terminal Services you know those things that when you download an app you’re like retrue but code of conducts

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are usually shorter but more concerned and a lot of people use the Berlin code of conduct which is a very solid one

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we’re like maybe we can make a twist maybe we can make a protocol for artists

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care because one thing like if you think about the stereotypes and myths about artists

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Starving Artists having to work all the time isolated lonely not making money

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it seems like if you think about all those words the common thing is like malpractice or malnutrition in how

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they’re able to feed their soul so what about if we have a platform that is not

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about getting the most likes it’s not about being the loudest it’s about

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internal care something that if you want to receive something

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the person that is going to give you the gift will go in like think about secret

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Santa for a bit like that’s how like when we’re talking about it it’s like see consenta why does secret santa work

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so much because Secret Santa you’re not trying to outspend anyone

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it’s not about outspending you’re trying to get the right gift for someone by listening to them

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so have you realize I realized that in most secret Santos people get happy with those gifts and you know it’s not you

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like yo 5.10 25 and usually those are the gifts like you remember the rest of your life sometimes because you’re like

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wow so much great secrets and exchanges apparently yeah what well I think so

Feedback Mechanisms

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then what one of your one of your your what you’re touching on there this idea

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of um uh like this this question of scale

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right how so like and also uh time so like how do you bring uh people into

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that that condition and because you’re also kind of putting something forward around

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um not having the same feedback mechanisms right you like saying like not it’s not a question of likes or a

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question of exposure but they’re what feedback mechanisms uh do you think work

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in that context and how and at what scale do they do they function best they

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get more like a natural pay it forward like you know like okay I’m willing to

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give advice I’m willing to give support I wanted to listen to you because everyone can benefit from

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talking to someone and uh and that was one of the things that we were thinking of it’s like okay

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what is a good time scale because if you know because one thing that a lot of people are saying and if you do a lot of

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research a lot of organizations they claim like okay the Superstar volunteer you know like that one person that

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carries the load at times once that person leaves some organizations crumble we see it in schools we see them in

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sports teams we see it so we’re like how do we negate that Superstar feeling that everyone feels they have a role but it

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doesn’t burn anyone else so one question we started asking is if we can get like-minded individuals to

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understand under this care protocol that an hour what is an hour worth

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and most people tell you oh an hour’s worth ten dollars twenty dollars but then when you talk to other people it’s

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like an hour it’s just worth that I’m able to get my ass my question answered or I’m able to have a conversation that

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just makes me feel better because now let’s say we take that hour so right there it’s like

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it’s not capitalism that we’re based in the hour on and it’s not even socialism it’s not even communism it’s not none of

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like the isms let’s say that hour is based on a mood and experience and the things that we naturally do this

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we just don’t realize when you listen to your favorite album you’re set in a mood so in that hour

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you’re setting a tendency if you want to binge watch a show those hours that you’re binging it’s because of money

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sometimes it’s really because in that hour you need a certain mood so you’re trying to pay for a mood but there’s an

Other Units

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interesting connection there I mean you mentioned the isms and uh obviously the hour as a unit of pay is very tightly

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tied to this to that you know billing and Contracting did you guys explore other units because I think that unit of

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time like is really interesting um to maybe use it as a symbol of the

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thing that you’re trying to undermine but did you guys talk about other units or other ways to think about that yeah

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so we’re like what what do you value so one thing is in in that like one question we kept asking people and kept

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asking ourselves what were the best mentorships you had what were the best experiences working on a team what moods

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like some people are like oh I really I really appreciate if I are honesty

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so it’s like one of those things that you’re like hmm if people value different stuff can it

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be an equal equation there’s like something called fairness model so let’s say

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you’re hungry and I’m not that hungry and we both bought a a slice of pizza if

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you eat seven slices and I eat three that might not be equal but if you’re

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hungry and I’m not hungry then that makes it more fair hmm and that’s the one thing it’s like

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this hour so one thing that we try to play with the hours that the hour is not

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based on the person given so that it’s more there’s there’s sort of it’s based on

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um on the need yes on the need because because then you

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reframe the hour right because now if we’re gonna like if we’re gonna talk about the unit now that hour We’re

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putting a weighted sum on the receiver in the sense that but in a try to do it

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like but since we added the care protocol in the beginning now that some is not a heavy burden it’s

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more like I’m in a space that maybe my needs would be respected so now we

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change the formula from like an hour must equal that employee or employer

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both have to be satisfied with this in the contract now it’s like within an hour

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person out of their heart or like out of goodness

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provides X Y and Z information let’s say two person and set person is satisfied

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and happy that’s experience so if the person receiving is sad or whatnot we

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did not do our job yeah and have you thought like did the

Types of Exchange

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discussion revolve at all around um uh looking at types of exchange that were

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in this realm so like you know um certain kinds of care are certain kinds

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of our exchange that needed but maybe in like you said information is another category you know basically like a skill

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of something like someone who is you know is it does it come down to

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something like accounting and bartering but also mentoring and counseling like how have you thought about these

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different ways that people might exchange this unit well I actually have thought that was swim tax so there’s

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something that we were doing on like you know an anti-rb experience the randomness we were thinking like okay

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the random experience how do you get that oh there’s one thing called like a knowledge Circle so one unit before I

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did O M I was thinking about knowledge circles so I was like okay if we have an hour or such unit where one person

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teaches one week and another person teaches the other week and then by the end everyone would have skills in

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something else and thought that’s one that’s also one exchange to knowledge exchange and then there’s something I

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think many cultures have this but I I’m going to speak from like the West African mindset there’s something called

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Susu so Susu will be like okay one month everyone gives a hundred dollars

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the person uses all and then the next month we all like someone like receives all the hundred dollars in a group and

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then by the end everyone has gave the same amount but received the same amount so in the end hopefully the I the idea

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is that hopefully in the end give and take

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so and then so like you can play that with knowledge so as artists

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and this is where the tricky part comes in on artists we might have different wants and different needs

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so if we have different wants and different needs and how do we make that fair because

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remember that pizza thing that I told you if you have seven slices while you’re hungry and I have three slices

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while I’m not hungry it’s not equal but it’s more fair so it’s one of those things that I like I said we were both

Building a System

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parsing out those two ideas and how you incorporate that into a system fairness and equality in a sense of like a

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quantitative equality uh versus say you know the qualitative is maybe more about

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about fairness about about thinking through these different different values so there is a there in some ways do you

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see it as trying to build a system that has almost two phases like there’s the

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phase of being of moving into the system of figuring out how you fit into these

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care protocols and then the actual activation of the system of how you do

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this exchange and how yeah I think I think that’s right and then like I said because it uh like I want to go back to

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the Susu a lot of people have bad experiences because at times you can call it fraud like some people have called fraud because I think you

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understand like if everyone gives you one and you run away everyone just lost the money I want shot

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but there’s a lot of other people that will tell you no no it works because of something that has been passed down generation to generation like this is

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not a New Concept it’s done in Century so you have the good experience and the bad and what does that come to your

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trust level right away that’s that so and then of course putting money directly affects people of

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course which I’m not gonna We’re not gonna lie like if I give you 200 and you ran away right now I’ll probably be mad

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but and does that relate back to that question of scale in terms of size like um you know if if you’re doing this in a

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small community where you actually see each other it’s pretty hard for you to uh to like find The Willpower to dute

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people um but obviously if you have a more a large-scale Anonymous structure it’s

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it’s sort of easier uh to to perpetrate kind of fraud within a system or

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question yeah so or is it just a question that we’re overly anxious about that is that actually not as much of an

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issue as as it is but yeah that’s the thing though but a lot of things that we have to do have to be care right so it’s

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like that’s why I laughed at what you just said that’s why I laugh at that notion sometimes like I understand when

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people say self-made but it is that to be a self-made millionaire to be a self-made artist and all that you still

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needed someone to co-sign you right like it’s one of those weird Concepts that like regardless of everything we do

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we’re such social creatures that sometimes we need a cosine and I don’t mean a validation if there’s a

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difference I mean like like unfortunately how our society works is like you cannot call yourself maybe

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something unless someone sees it right like like if you ever do grants if you ever want to like well there’s always a

Ecosystem

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doctor system around us whether that ecosystem even just at the base natural or nurturing level of feeding and

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clothing us we are not we are not and never are uh uh individuals

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um we are you know beings within a larger a larger system and it do you

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think of the ecosystem as something as a metaphor and a way of talking about what you’re trying to do maybe even under the

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platform 100 because if I’m not mistaken like the project was also a form of like how mushrooms grow that whole network

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and fungus grown it’s one of the most interesting things to me like how insects make their colonies

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because like we’re saying like insects are not as smart as stuff but the way they grow they just grow and then they

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survive and then they base our thing right like I think there’s one of those things that like if you kill an ant or

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or like a spot or like a spider they give off a scent so the other ones like

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naturally know what occurs or or even like that whole thing that like if I’m

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eating honey that honey came from a bee which came from a plant which came from a traveling Birds pollinator see like

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we’re all part of this pollination so maybe it may be maybe maybe an idea of what we’re trying to do is that instead

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of trying to do like those grand dose things on the scale maybe maybe it’s like the ultimate scale back in a way

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when you think about it that what we’re really trying to do is we’re not trying to give you the truckloads of fruits

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because that has the logistics that has them maybe it’s just like building off that

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pollination because before you could even think the fruits there’s an ecosystem that started the

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pollination right like bees going in and then like the random fact that I’m gonna go in is that there’s like this math

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thing called the nearest salesman it’s like okay how efficiently can you go from place to place so you know like ups

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and all that they go from like when they deliver they deliver house to house a lot of people don’t know that Beast

30:48

actually can like almost solve that problem right because think about it if you’re a b you’re small you’re going to

30:54

like these flower like these flowers think of them as houses you have to suck it go in so you’re trying to naturally

31:00

and we don’t think about that because we’re not in that process so it’s one of those things that like maybe having a

31:06

process that’s built in just pollinating germinating like you know

31:11

ferment things maybe that process can lead have a bigger effect so maybe we’re just

31:18

trying to build like maybe o m is similar to that flower that pollen that just by pollinating other phlegms

31:24

once you leave that ecosystem maybe by the way you’re paying it forward will help your community blossom into a

31:30

flower right so that what bees and birds do right pollinate that go and so it’s one of those things like I think you

31:37

said the right word ecosystem well do you think ecosystems do you think in that way like that sort of bringing the

Digital Backend

31:45

question of the digital backend to it um is the work of the O M As you move uh

31:53

forward into this like deeper into this prototyping stage do you think the work

31:59

that you’re trying to do fits well into the realm of the digital is the digital

32:07

a problem uh that needs to be sort of solved or is there is there something

32:13

inherent in the Way digital technology is working right now and platforms that

32:18

actually is very well suited to the o m oh I think it’s a mix of both I think

32:24

it’s one of those things that since we’re dealing with a lot of cultural things and mine that we have to like

32:29

since we’re dealing with care protocol is that we’re actually trying to make people people right so no matter and

32:37

because a lot of digital things that are like you’re more of a user but in this case you’re not a user

32:43

you’re a being part of this like that’s why I think the pollination idea is good the pollination the fungus like things

32:49

that just go on like sometimes like sometimes we have this Romanticism that

32:58

we have the next big idea which maybe you do maybe you don’t right like you know how we always you know that saying

33:03

like Okay this is the greatest sense of sliced bread or because of this like you

33:09

know when you ever like look at the like the greatest Canadian invention might be the sipper

33:14

and you’re like how and then you’re like oh it has so many different things so maybe it’s one of those things that like the grand dose ideas or the Big Ideas

33:21

that we’re having when we’re going on platforms maybe if we just bring it back to a

33:27

human scale you consider that if you have like you know when you look at some of these like term of services and all that it talks

33:34

about like users big scale but maybe the care protocol since we’re bringing it back to like no matter how many people

33:40

that protocol brings it to one person like you are a person we care like if

33:46

you follow like if you follow these steps or don’t follow this is how it’s about and that changes your mind

33:53

like it’s like I want to give a bad example but I remember I had a basketball coach and he was saying sometimes people cut themselves because

34:00

sometimes you set the tone of the team that people realize that is not for them

34:05

so they find like some people find ways to self-sabotage or sell this and that but what if you have a care protocol

34:14

what is there to self-sabotage in a way right like if you’re trolling

34:19

you’re actually affecting you you’re not affecting others so maybe you come in maybe you want to

34:24

trouble maybe you don’t believe but since we set these protocols if you’re not a fit it might show easily

34:31

might not like depends if people are actors and maybe trolls not all trolls

34:37

are bad maybe that’s something that we might figure out maybe like sometimes you’re just trolling based on

34:43

what you have read somewhere else yeah I think it sounds like you’re you’re also Reckoning with the the

Defining Participant

34:49

challenge of how you um Define and maybe participant is a better word than user for for the O M

34:56

that that is this uh right for you that the care protocols that you’re trying to

35:03

build as an entryway into the into the platform are

35:09

um as much about uh defining Behavior as as defining you know and identifying or

35:17

seeing yourself within this this is for me I actually want to participate uh in

35:22

this in this generous exchange and I want to participate in a system of care uh and so you sort of are self-selecting

35:29

you’re kind of defining um the the type of user that you that

35:35

you want to participate yeah like that’s why right like when you see work culture

35:40

this and that and sometimes the tenants that internet culture sometimes spread in but there’s

35:47

a for as bad as it has been and there’s a lot of things that go wrong there’s been a lot of good right like you know

35:52

sometimes GoFundMe campaigns or you know when we see that story like someone just got accepted into grad

35:59

school and then strangers are taking care of you and unfortunately there’s been death in your family

36:05

and you see strangers out of nowhere comfort you like oh I’ve been through this don’t worry so there’s been

36:12

instances that humanity is not bad it’s just that sometimes we don’t gather all of that so

36:20

it’s maybe and maybe it’s like well maybe it’s one of those things that maybe we can Infuse more care maybe

36:25

we’ll get to going on because for like I said as bad as the internet has been

36:31

there’s been like I don’t know if that’s many good things because what is good right and relatively what is good or bad

36:37

and I think that’s one thing like one more thing about o m it’s one of those things that like

36:43

what will make most receivers recipients good

36:49

because you know those gifts you know like there’s like 100 personally I don’t think I have this in my circle but you

36:54

know there’s like weirdo stories that like where someone’s like yo someone just gave me this gift

36:59

but it’s not really what I want it’s like they don’t listen that is a horrible user experience that’s a

37:06

horrible user experience so how do we prevent that user

37:12

experience how do we prevent those experiences from a rising from

37:18

coming to life but you can’t please everyone too right because statistically that’s impossible

37:24

no I think it needs to be a work in progress yeah yeah but but what if you let someone know that that it is a work

37:30

in progress like what if you like this character in because characters are ever like let’s say terrorists are ever a lifelong

37:38

evolutionary process yeah does that change how you approach it maybe probably and that’s probably one of the

37:44

things we have to like try to find out so

Digital Changes

37:49

um I wonder if we can uh still talk a bit more about the digital and maybe

37:57

um how the digital has changed how you’ve seen change both in artistic creation

38:04

and arts organizations how has that element changed over this year and how

38:11

has that changed you know you can maybe start with the the O M machine but maybe it’s it’s larger than that for you I

38:20

will say scalability and imposter syndrome and Celebrity Status so why do I mean

38:27

scalability a lot of organizations now are getting more people from outside the region right

38:32

like before you have to think like oh you have to feel bad okay we kind of stuff International artists we can

38:38

accept people from other Province because we have to pay for the lodging blah blah that’s where the whole webinar thing

38:44

comes in because now we’re like okay we can find people of similar interests similar stuff so things have to be

38:50

scaled bigger but at the same time while some things are getting bigger

38:55

some festivals have to get smaller to try to make that intimate but also you’re competing

39:00

because now every now there’s like a lot of stuff going on like let’s say you were in a city that there was tennis

39:06

events going on for your particular thing per month now since everyone has moved online or

39:12

hybrid that 10 moved to like a thousand so now what now now you’re almost gone

39:18

in and that’s lease also into sometimes the Imposter syndromes like am I really good at what I do do I have the

39:24

followers do I have the likes how come no one is paying this this and

39:30

that so it’s one of the things that like it has good scalability but with that scalability you start realizing your

39:37

strengths and your cons and some people are able to write like it’s one thing I

39:42

guess not to like mistake like that if you have a lot of followers

39:49

that that means that person is great or vice versa I think that’s one of the most important things to part of what

Local Erosion

39:56

you’re saying there is an erosion of the local is what you’re seeing like there there’s really uh your uh sense as a as

40:06

a Creator this combination is partially because it no longer um are you being measured only in

40:13

relation to the um or you know the weight of of your local impact of being part of a

40:20

community has actually been eroded because now you know where everything is global all of a sudden

40:27

and so big big has gotten bigger uh and the long tail has gotten much more difficult to navigate but also I think

40:35

also with that like some things that were Niche because we can I know Niche is not really local but there’s also

40:41

like I think the concept of Niche becomes like shot up right

40:47

yeah and the thing like and and there’s good and bad on that because you don’t want to be a

40:53

gatekeeper and I think gatekeeping is wrong I think that like if people want to go in but then also

40:59

you start getting side steps I was like you know and this is where I think that like as digital artists and meat artists

41:06

sometimes we might be like problematic with this

41:11

right when you think about it so let’s say as a media artist

41:18

I don’t know anything about this but oh since I can code it it will work we just have we have a

41:26

little glitch it’s because Cali has got the same interview uh she’s our interview this afternoon oh

41:32

no problem I don’t know it’s probably just testing out was that long enough though I don’t mind I think that was a

41:38

good convo or if there’s more you wanted to talk about her well we can uh what we’ll do is uh

41:44

um if you want you can kick Cali out she might hear us say that and there we

41:52

go um and then we’ll take that we’ll we’ll go back and take this question again I

Final Question

42:00

think we were talking about uh uh what were we talking about just before Cali came in

42:05

um and the digital and arts organizations the local erosion of the local

42:16

um I think we’re we’re hitting to like into the 40 plus minute Mark so our brains

42:21

are probably starting to wear out for a conversation so what we can do is Let’s uh we’ll take a kind of uh uh we’ll take

42:29

a step back and then we’ll like maybe try and wrap up with the final question what do you think

42:34

up to you yeah okay yeah we can go on Final question now and then let me know how it

42:39

is and yeah what do you think that sounds good okay so we’ll uh

42:47

cut ourselves in again in five four three two

42:55

so um we were talking about uh this idea of

43:02

the way that the the erosion of the local can have sort of good and bad you were talking about

43:08

Gatekeepers and the idea of um uh

43:14

inclusion I think um do you have do you want to touch back on those things

43:20

yeah because I just feel like the problem is is that

43:26

ah it’s easy to assimilate into different formats right now because like you know like like you said like if

43:31

you’re a teacher you’re making a YouTube channel but for some people like are you doing the proper like if you do photography you

43:38

have the proper thirds or whatnot some some some niches don’t mind some niches do and that’s the problem was like this

43:45

Global thing is that problem and not problem is that it brings shine like right now I know I’ve been plugging

43:51

like so many different platforms like the other day I was watching a documentary on like yo-yoing again

43:57

fantasy hairstyling and in my head I’m like oh damn yo-yo is

44:03

a big community and fantasy hairstyle in how do you get into that how do you get

44:08

into that professionally but then when you think about how do we get into other stuff professionally

44:13

by watching that documentary I think I actually watched like more yo-yo videos that I have watched since I post

44:19

probably like 10 11 and maybe even then I didn’t even watch that many because you know I didn’t have that access

44:26

to so by watching that documentary others people might get into yo-yoing

44:31

but then you get into yoyo it’s like are you in it for the tricks are you in it for the fundamentals right because it’s

44:36

a niche thing so it’s there so sometimes like people might gatekeep and I’m not saying gatekeeping is right

44:43

because I think that we should be open but I think that you should also let people know about how your system works

44:49

or how your care works and all that so I think that is one thing I was trying to

44:56

emulate that the part the thing with the

45:01

scalabilities that things are becoming more known so more people can interact you you’re not having that sense of like

45:07

you’re lonely or that you’re just a few that do it but then at the back side it’s like sometimes

45:13

things can wash away like you know when you were acting before like if some platforms change dramatically by how

45:20

many people use them right right we’re on Zoom right now but like zoom zoom fatigue really is because

45:27

everyone you zoom for everything yeah yeah I’ll be friends yeah so it’s one of

45:32

those sentences like it’s like okay do we get fatigued from our own niches do we get scalability how

45:39

do we make sure that as things get larger it’s harder for organizations to keep track

45:46

of everyone so once you do this International Outreach or this globalization I said rather should say

45:53

how do you make sure that like even people that like don’t feel like they have a say in the organization

46:00

are still part of it so um as we uh as we wind down our

Whats Next

46:06

conversation maybe we can touch quickly on your on what’s next for you and and what’s what’s happening right now uh I

46:13

know you’re in the the next phase of uh prototyping for the O M

46:20

um you’ll be a part of that is there other stuff that you’re working on that you’re um want to talk about I have been

46:26

working on census so the whole local idea has been something on like how do I make things feel local in these so I’ve

46:32

been making like I just released this like Shameless plug I just released like an album called colorscape where every

46:38

track I code based on the color value so the title like let’s say the title is

46:43

the baby blue so let’s say like zero one zero one zero one any number you found

46:48

in that hex file I would make a track so it’s like an internal monologue but now the more I think about I’m like oh if I

46:54

can miss maybe I can miss taste you know so one thing is like you know how food is like some

46:59

food have color so you know orange like chocolate so maybe I could do something where I make a representation of like

47:07

the sounds to get people to think about taste and smell and then do all that because that’s one thing I realized the

47:14

more I do online stuff that I really want to play with people’s senses and emotion and connection but then I’m like

47:21

what is the easiest way to do a father algorithm do it what is the human way and I’m like oh cue cards are just say

47:27

random words because like you like uh so one example for that you know when you wake up in

47:34

the morning depending on what you hear the weather’s going to be might change your output so if it’s cold you probably

47:41

you’re probably drinking hot chocolate maybe if it’s summer you’re probably not drinking as much so try to play with

47:47

those little variables online to make that connection so yeah so you’re keeping you keep

47:52

working in the in this format in the in the Audio Visual Album that’s something you really enjoyed

47:58

it was it was fun but also like I’m like but also I’m thinking about like let’s say we’re back in person so one thing is

48:04

like that audio visual things like let’s say like there’s a room that has different colors and based on the color

48:09

you’re listening to you go to that color because I want to bring that hybrid back so you know how like everyone’s moving

48:15

to digitization I once I want to have stuff that could live on a digital space but if we’re physically with each other

48:22

they can still be emulated in a different experience so something that’s both static and

48:29

dynamic at the same time cool and also using cell phones very much for

48:36

your time today I look forward to seeing uh what comes next both with the o m and your own stuff thank you very much take

48:43

care thank you

48:53

before foreign

49:00

[Music]

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