Ken Greenberg
Future Cities Forum
February 23rd, 2018 Ottawa, Canada
Presented by Artengine and Impact Hub Ottawa in partnership with the National Capital Commission Urbanism Lab
A trio of keynotes kicked-off the Future Cities Forum including science-fiction writer and futurist Madeline Ashby, urban designer Ken Greenberg, and professor Tracey Lauriault, a researcher who specializes in big data and the city.
This diverse group shared their speculations on future cities in the context of emerging and disruptive technologies. How will and can we adapt the key lessons of urban design of the twentieth century and not be seduced by the same techno-utopianism that shaped cities in the past? As we are transformed and extended into the network, how will a citizen be in public or private in our new data-driven city? Who will be the heroes and anti-heroes of the cities to come?Ken Greenberg
Future Cities Forum
February 23rd, 2018 Ottawa, Canada
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0:02
um good evening everybody
0:11
i
0:12
was watching the digital wall go up
0:15
and it could almost be a summary of what
0:18
i’m going to talk about which is
0:20
essentially
0:21
what i wish for
0:23
and what i am concerned about what i’m
0:26
worried about
0:27
in this whole issue of technology i’ve
0:31
done the introduction
0:33
and
0:34
i’m my hypothesis my optimistic
0:37
hypothesis
0:39
is that there can be such a thing as a
0:41
human centered use of technology
0:45
and in fairness there should be a
0:46
question mark
0:48
after that because i think this is an
0:50
open question
0:53
what’s really interesting to me as a
0:55
starting point is how
0:58
the word technology has changed in
1:01
meaning
1:03
if you look at this dictionary
1:05
definition
1:07
the application of scientific knowledge
1:09
for practical purposes especially in
1:11
industry i’ll leave out the red part
1:13
machinery and equipment developed from
1:15
the application of scientific knowledge
1:18
only in the last perhaps 20 years or so
1:22
have we come to
1:24
an understanding of technology
1:26
so that whenever we use the word we’re
1:28
referring to something related to
1:30
computers
1:31
to the digital world which is
1:34
kind of an interesting twist
1:37
and
1:38
as you’ll see
1:41
i am going to talk as a kind of
1:43
cautionary tale
1:45
about an earlier meaning of technology
1:49
and an earlier version of technology
1:51
which i spent a great deal of my career
1:54
wrestling with
1:56
so
1:57
i think a number of things
2:00
have to be said right at the outset this
2:03
phenomenon seems to be inevitable
2:06
we’re doing it because we can there’s
2:09
something in our nature that will always
2:10
push those limits
2:12
there’s obviously a drive for profit
2:15
there’s a drive for convenience
2:18
but is this an unequivocal good
2:21
and are there and this is a rhetorical
2:23
question
2:24
critical choices that we have to make
2:27
about technology
2:30
and i want to talk first of all about
2:32
what we can learn from past embraces of
2:35
technologies in cities
2:38
uncritical adoption
2:40
leading to collateral damage to
2:42
unforeseen consequences
2:45
aftershocks reassessment
2:48
and then reaction
2:50
and i’m going to use this cautionary
2:52
tale
2:54
to
2:54
alert us
2:56
to the need to anticipate
3:00
this possibility
3:02
and
3:03
test our embrace of technology
3:06
against other values that we have so
3:09
here’s my cautionary tale
3:11
and it has to do
3:13
with the post-war embrace of the
3:15
automobile
3:17
which clearly the internal combustion
3:19
engine at the time was a wonderful
3:21
invention
3:23
which we in hindsight have overused and
3:27
abused
3:29
and i would liken this moment
3:32
to
3:33
1939
3:35
the new york world’s fair
3:38
the futurama pavilion which was put up
3:41
by general motors
3:43
which millions and millions of people
3:46
came to see
3:47
enthralled by the possibility for
3:50
transforming cities based on
3:53
the use of the automobile and general
3:55
motors at that time was not so much
3:56
selling cars
3:58
as they were selling a way of life
4:01
and people went on this moving circular
4:04
platform around a gigantic diorama
4:07
and curiously if you look at that it
4:09
looks
4:11
what that diorama
4:12
portrayed was something that looks
4:14
extraordinarily like
4:16
much of the suburban environment
4:19
surrounding all of our cities in north
4:21
america
4:22
so here was the euphoria
4:24
people thought
4:26
this these images are from white right
4:30
after world war ii
4:32
um the fact that young families could
4:35
get these automobiles there was a mass
4:37
exodus from the city
4:39
that this would be the gateway to a new
4:42
and wonderful form of life
4:45
and uncritically so and what that led to
4:48
very quickly
4:50
is a total restructuring of the city
4:53
which was replicated all over north
4:55
america and across the world
4:58
and it became what i sometimes refer to
5:00
as the suburban industrial complex
5:03
playing off dwight eisenhower’s
5:06
evocation of the military-industrial
5:08
complex and it involved
5:10
a really efficient organization of
5:13
financial institutions developers
5:15
lawyers builders brokers real estate
5:17
agents road contractors
5:19
who all became incredibly adept
5:23
at producing this kind of environment
5:25
and this could be a google
5:28
image
5:29
of pretty much any city in north america
5:32
producing this by the kilometer
5:34
very quickly and so where did that lead
5:38
um if you go clockwise in this these
5:40
images this is kind of time travel out
5:42
of the city after the war you have
5:45
upper left
5:46
a pre-automobile part of the city
5:50
as you move to the right the roads get
5:52
wider the radii on at the curbs get
5:55
larger the buildings get pushed back you
5:58
have parking lots appearing in front of
5:59
the buildings and eventually you get out
6:02
into an environment
6:05
where you really are not meant to be as
6:07
a pedestrian it’s kind of akin to being
6:09
standing on on the tarmac
6:11
in an airfield it has that quality
6:14
you’re not welcome
6:15
so
6:17
this produced all my text has
6:20
disappeared so
6:22
i will i will simply
6:26
explain that that that life magazine
6:28
cover appeared in 1961
6:31
and it was already pointing out that
6:33
this phenomenon was testing to failure
6:36
as quickly as it was created
6:38
the roads filled up the highways the
6:40
interstate highways in the u.s filled up
6:43
we polluted the atmosphere
6:46
we developed something that we hadn’t
6:47
anticipated which was a public health
6:49
crisis
6:51
from a sedentary lifestyle
6:54
where essentially we have levels of
6:56
obesity hypertension
6:59
heart disease even in children that we
7:01
had never anticipated and we developed a
7:04
complete dependence on fossil fuels
7:07
so
7:08
this is the world that we created and
7:11
belatedly we realized
7:13
that this kind of environment
7:16
could actually be harmful to your health
7:20
and so this is a wordle that shows the
7:22
heavy toll that this began to take on
7:24
people’s lives
7:26
and this is
7:28
something produced by the medical
7:30
officer of health in toronto
7:32
where you can see that as you move out
7:34
of the city center into the post-war
7:37
parts of the city that were created
7:40
around the automobile
7:41
all of those health problems that i was
7:44
mentioning start to appear
7:47
related proportionally to how much
7:49
people are car dependent and how much
7:51
they’re not walking anymore
7:53
in how much they have actually bought
7:55
into that kind of environment
7:58
so what has happened is a substitution
8:02
now which is really interesting this is
8:04
the reaction part
8:06
of the
8:07
so-called american dream or dare i call
8:09
it the north american dream which was to
8:12
have your own house your own lot your
8:13
own garden
8:15
every adult had a car
8:18
and that became a fleet of cars for
8:21
every adult in the household
8:23
to the point where we now have a
8:25
competing
8:26
and increasingly more potent version
8:29
of the dream
8:31
which is to live in a neighborhood where
8:32
you can walk to buy your groceries where
8:34
you have access to transit where you can
8:36
use a bicycle
8:37
and where you can live in a compact
8:40
environment
8:43
this has been
8:45
the subject of a book that i wrote which
8:48
has been my struggle
8:50
over the past few decades with that
8:52
earlier version of technology and
8:54
walking home i think sends
8:57
says it all
8:58
but the key
9:00
part of a
9:01
massive paradigm shift
9:03
that we have undergone is a reassessment
9:07
of the technology that drove that
9:10
transformation
9:11
of the urban world
9:13
and
9:14
the way in which it
9:17
insidiously reshaped the environment
9:20
that we live in
9:22
the pushback
9:24
started as a grassroots movement
9:27
and
9:28
my sister was an anthropologist often
9:31
pointed out to me
9:33
that
9:34
survival in culture depends on
9:38
people who
9:39
keep practices that are no longer
9:42
popular
9:43
alive so that they can be called upon at
9:45
a future time
9:47
when they’re needed for the survival of
9:49
a civilization and in fact in our case
9:52
the older neighborhoods the pre-war
9:54
neighborhoods
9:55
actually became a living example when
9:58
people started to embrace them
10:00
of all of those virtues of connectivity
10:04
of local shopping
10:06
of
10:07
kids being able to get to school on
10:10
bicycle or walking all of those
10:11
qualities that we had lost
10:14
with that embrace of automobile
10:16
technology
10:18
the urban land institute
10:21
had this show up on their radar screen
10:23
in 2013 this is the most prestigious
10:26
organization of developers
10:29
in north america and probably in the
10:30
world at this time and they sent out a
10:32
brochure to their
10:34
members people who are building real
10:36
estate and said
10:37
your consumers are now looking for
10:39
something else they’re not just looking
10:41
for the view from a tall condo they’re
10:43
actually looking for a neighborhood
10:46
and so my first assignment for the city
10:49
of toronto
10:50
was in this area which is east of
10:53
downtown toronto
10:56
it’s not
10:57
kind of surrounding the st lawrence
10:58
market and when i started there
11:00
recruited by mayor david crombee
11:03
back in the late 70s long time ago
11:06
that’s what it looked like it was a
11:07
gigantic parking lot
11:10
all the buildings were being torn down
11:12
to provide cheap parking for the office
11:14
buildings at king and bay in the heart
11:16
of toronto
11:18
and this is what has happened since as
11:20
part of the paradigm shift and reaction
11:23
all of the surface parking has
11:25
disappeared it’s all been replaced
11:28
by mixed income mixed-use
11:32
buildings
11:34
tens of thousands of people living there
11:36
public spaces and so on i was talking to
11:39
a young woman earlier in the crowd whose
11:41
thesis now is about what happens to
11:43
parking lots
11:44
this is actually a great example
11:46
of reverse engineering
11:49
from a
11:50
an excessive embrace of a certain
11:53
technology
11:55
we’re having to learn how to
11:58
rethink how we move in cities obviously
12:01
getting back on our feet getting into
12:03
transit who would have thought that the
12:05
bicycle
12:06
would reappear as a major form of
12:09
transportation
12:10
in the 21st century
12:12
critical political decisions
12:14
stopping the
12:16
spread of the highway network
12:19
william davis then the premier of the
12:22
province
12:23
made this extraordinary decision
12:26
and so the realization
12:29
had obviously become quite
12:31
widespread by that point
12:34
that this was extremely problematic we
12:37
have now a whole new generation of
12:41
engineering of streets
12:43
which yes we still have automobiles but
12:47
where we’ve reversed the pyramid reverse
12:49
the priority so top priority goes to
12:52
pedestrians
12:53
next cyclist next public transit and the
12:56
automobiles have their place so
12:58
the appropriate use of the technology
13:01
not its
13:03
being abolished but actually put in the
13:06
context of a different set of values
13:08
this is a street design manual from new
13:11
york city
13:12
which is actually redesigning all of its
13:16
rights of way
13:17
piece by piece all through the five
13:20
boroughs
13:21
and in light of that reversed set of
13:24
priorities so again reassessing the
13:26
technology
13:28
this is a great organization called
13:30
eight to eighty cities
13:32
which is a canadian non-profit that
13:34
argues that if you make a city work for
13:37
an eight-year-old and an 80-year-old as
13:39
indicator species
13:41
from the standpoint of active
13:43
transportation personal mobility it
13:46
actually works for everyone and here’s a
13:48
surprising finding
13:50
that people aged 60 to 79 and i fall
13:54
nicely in that category account for more
13:57
than a third of the biking boom
14:00
who would have thought this is not just
14:02
young people
14:03
who are doing this so i served as
14:06
interim chief planner in the city of
14:08
boston when the big dig was going on
14:10
this was the central artery built in
14:12
1950
14:14
which drove this enormous wedge through
14:16
the heart of the city which has been
14:18
replaced by the rose kennedy greenway
14:21
which you see here this is all about
14:22
that reverse engineering here’s the
14:25
project that james mentioned which is
14:27
this piece of elevated highway in
14:29
downtown toronto called the gardner
14:31
expressway
14:32
erected at about the same time
14:36
and i got involved with a wonderful
14:39
couple of donors
14:41
will and judy matthews
14:43
in creating
14:45
something which through a public
14:47
competition is now called the got the
14:49
bentway
14:51
we originally called it project
14:52
undergardner and we have repurposed that
14:56
space 10 acres
14:59
almost 2 kilometers under the gardner
15:01
expressway
15:02
as a public space on january 6 we opened
15:06
a skating trail
15:07
which you see here we had 20 000 people
15:10
who came out the first weekend
15:12
in 30 below weather to actually
15:15
experience this and we’ll be running
15:16
year-round
15:18
programs in this space so again
15:20
taking something that was designed for
15:23
one purpose that was an unloved
15:26
hidden space hiding in plain sight in
15:29
the heart of the city
15:31
and turning it into something completely
15:33
different
15:34
in light of a totally new set of
15:37
priorities and this this is what
15:39
happened on social media a virtual
15:41
uh explosion when people found
15:43
themselves able to use this space in an
15:47
entirely different way so i would argue
15:49
that that this is part of a whole
15:51
movement that has occurred of seeing the
15:55
city completely differently of instead
15:57
of
15:59
the pattern that we had fallen into
16:02
of
16:04
having a mental map of the city which
16:06
was described by numbered highways or by
16:10
major
16:11
vehicular arterials
16:13
we’re starting to understand the city
16:15
and this of course is toronto
16:18
navigating it
16:20
by greenways by ravines
16:23
by public spaces by a whole network of
16:26
active transportation
16:29
which is kind of reflecting this flip in
16:32
values that we’re experiencing
16:34
so now let me apply that cautionary tale
16:38
to where we are now
16:40
we are just at the beginning
16:43
i think early days or perhaps
16:45
significantly already into
16:48
another paradigm shift
16:50
which is coming about through the
16:52
embrace of this new version
16:55
of technology
16:56
it is touching every aspect of our lives
17:01
as was pointed out it is absolutely
17:03
pervasive
17:05
and can we draw some parallels
17:08
with our experience
17:10
with the automobile in terms of making
17:12
choices about how to use this technology
17:16
clearly it opens many remarkable
17:19
possibilities
17:21
for cities
17:22
but also raises many very valid concerns
17:25
including concerns around privacy
17:28
control ownership use of data
17:30
potential for social isolation
17:33
narrow banding
17:35
loss of common ground with implications
17:38
for the heterogeneous society that we
17:40
are particularly in canada
17:43
diminished
17:45
human non-virtual encounters
17:48
which is a great preoccupation for me
17:51
loss of social skills people who are
17:54
uncomfortable actually talking to each
17:56
other
17:57
would prefer to text and talk which i
17:59
find
18:01
absolutely incomprehensible
18:04
but the question is can we selectively
18:08
and consciously
18:09
harness
18:10
harness the best that technology can
18:13
offer in a mindful way
18:16
without sacrificing the qualities of
18:18
cities that we value
18:20
now eliminating human
18:22
contact is nothing new this is the
18:24
automat from new york city in the 1940s
18:28
this was a big deal instead of going
18:30
into a restaurant and dealing with a
18:31
waiter you walked up to this wall and
18:33
all these
18:34
meals appeared from behind the wall
18:37
there were actually
18:38
cooks behind there this wasn’t being
18:40
done by robots this was all being done
18:42
by hand but this was a great novelty
18:44
that you could
18:45
avoid human beings this way and this is
18:48
the contemporary version
18:51
of the automat called itsa
18:53
where again you’re pulling your food out
18:55
of a wall and you’re not interacting
18:58
with another human being
18:59
and then this phenomena which is
19:02
becoming very
19:04
quickly
19:05
arriving upon us
19:07
of getting to shopping being entirely
19:11
alone essentially replacing
19:14
all human contact so the real question
19:16
for me
19:18
and i use retail or shopping as an
19:21
example
19:22
is
19:23
shopping only about consuming and
19:27
getting the goods and services that we
19:29
need in the most efficient
19:31
cheapest way
19:33
or is there something about the
19:35
experience of being on a shopping street
19:38
being in a market
19:40
as a social experience
19:43
the sights the sounds the smells the
19:46
contact the chance encounters
19:49
the ability to act to and interact with
19:52
other human beings
19:54
that actually brings an entirely
19:56
different set of values do we really
19:58
want
19:59
amazon to wipe out all of our main
20:02
streets
20:03
which is their avowed purpose
20:05
i think that’s a reasonable question to
20:07
ask
20:09
so this this is just a
20:11
cartoon from the new yorker that i quite
20:13
liked
20:16
but here we are now no more cashiers
20:20
is this fun this is the new amazon store
20:23
you can walk in and out without
20:25
exchanging a word with anybody
20:28
never encountering a human being who
20:30
would know anything about any of the
20:32
products that are there the produce
20:35
the fish the meat the cheeses all the
20:37
things that we like to talk about when
20:39
we actually go to a market
20:41
clearly there’s a place for this
20:44
but do we want is that the world that we
20:46
that we want to live in
20:48
to what extent are we
20:50
willing or
20:51
[Music]
20:54
deciding
20:56
without being conscious about it to
20:58
retreat into
20:59
virtual cyber worlds eliminating human
21:03
contact this is something that drives me
21:05
crazy in the airports there is an
21:07
american company
21:09
that is actually installing these
21:12
screens
21:13
excuse me
21:15
everywhere in the waiting areas in
21:17
airports so rather than sitting and
21:19
talking to people you wherever you sit
21:22
down
21:23
you’re immediately face to face
21:25
with a screen which is bombarding you
21:27
with information obviously trying to
21:29
sell you things
21:30
i like this quote from michelle obama
21:32
recently when she came to visit toronto
21:35
social media can do two things it can
21:37
bring us together or can keep us
21:38
isolated a life looking into your phone
21:41
is not a life she said you have to break
21:44
out of your silo
21:47
there was a really interesting piece in
21:49
the globe and mail
21:51
last week
21:52
this was a conversation between jim
21:54
vasily and a psychiatrist named david
21:58
dodge deutsch rather
22:00
i would really urge you to read it
22:02
particularly the comments of david
22:04
deutsch the psychiatrist
22:06
but he was really arguing that phone
22:09
addiction and fomo fear of missing out
22:13
can actually stunt growth
22:15
particularly in this next generation of
22:18
children
22:19
that it does things to our brains
22:22
that make it
22:24
increasingly difficult for us to
22:27
actually have and enjoy social
22:29
interaction the fear of talking
22:32
to other human beings of making eye
22:34
contact
22:35
uh all of those social skills
22:37
that are put at risk and it’s a very
22:40
chilling
22:41
conversation
22:42
so the question is do we want this is a
22:45
starbucks starbucks of course are
22:48
designed
22:49
for no human interaction
22:51
everybody is sitting there with their
22:53
laptop or their phone
22:55
do we want to be alone together
22:59
or do we want to actually be together
23:01
together this is a little cafe in my
23:03
neighborhood that i really like you’ll
23:05
see the screens there it’s not the
23:06
technology
23:07
isn’t present
23:09
but i want you to look at where people
23:12
are sitting there’s a counter
23:14
where you sit and have your coffee and
23:16
your pastry or your sandwich it’s 30
23:19
centimeters wide
23:20
it’s a long plank
23:22
so when you sit there as those people
23:25
are doing
23:26
you are actually invited to have a
23:28
conversation with your neighbors
23:31
and it works
23:32
and you don’t feel like you’re pressured
23:34
to do so but it is an environment that
23:37
is designed for people to interact now
23:40
what are the implications for a
23:41
heterogeneous society i’ve mentioned
23:43
that this i love this pair of
23:45
photographs on the top at the old gurman
23:47
wards distillery in toronto
23:50
you had the guys and they were guys
23:54
in the early part of the 20th century
23:55
who worked there who all lined
23:56
themselves up against the wall
23:59
and more recently the people who work in
24:00
the distillery district decided to
24:02
replicate that photo and of course you
24:04
see
24:06
the gender differences you see people
24:08
from all over the world all ages
24:11
society has changed completely
24:13
what if we never get to actually know
24:16
each other face to face
24:18
what are the implications of that what
24:20
if we’re only encountering each other
24:22
online or through the windshields of
24:24
automobiles
24:26
as our society becomes more and more
24:28
heterogeneous
24:29
these are the kinds of things that can
24:31
happen this was in brampton
24:33
where a group of people from western
24:35
canada came in and started putting this
24:37
poster up
24:39
trying to develop fear and phobia about
24:42
the
24:43
south asian population
24:45
and they took a photograph which was not
24:47
canada at all it was a riot that
24:48
happened in india and what i loved was
24:52
the high school students in brampton
24:54
replicated the poster
24:56
and
24:58
portrayed themselves and said yes this
25:00
is really the world that we want because
25:03
they were being told by this other
25:05
poster to fear it
25:07
i think in order for that to happen we
25:09
need the human interaction
25:12
so this this is where i am kind of
25:14
coming to this is from uh i don’t expect
25:16
you to read this this is from a recent
25:18
article i wrote in spacing
25:20
i would encourage you
25:22
to have a look at it but what i
25:24
basically argue and this is the reason i
25:26
have involved myself
25:28
with sidewalk
25:30
is that we have to not ignore
25:34
this
25:34
wave of technology
25:36
we have to proactively engage with it
25:40
we have to raise these issues we have to
25:42
bring
25:43
value-laden questions into the
25:46
conversation
25:47
talk about appropriate use of the
25:49
technology where we want
25:52
sophisticated technology where we want
25:55
low-tech or no-tech
25:57
in our cities and make conscious choices
26:00
so the question at the i’ll just read
26:03
the last sentence the questions for me
26:04
often come down to how a human-centered
26:07
urbanism
26:08
could be aided by technology not be
26:10
subverted by it
26:11
can we assess potential solutions
26:13
against human values and decide when to
26:16
say no not exactly
26:19
bend inflect and choose
26:22
so here is a younger colleague of mine
26:25
expressing
26:27
what she sees as the bargain
26:30
her name is zara ibrahim she’s very
26:33
involved as a community activist in many
26:35
things in toronto so this is what she
26:38
said to me the change in our
26:39
expectations that’s being shaped through
26:41
our digital lives
26:43
i.e i’m giving you my data give me a
26:45
better experience
26:47
is about to hit our urban lives as the
26:50
urban data movement hits us
26:52
citizens will expect a relatively
26:55
biometric city organic responsive
26:58
nuanced in understanding what they need
27:01
that’s can we turn the inevitability
27:04
into a virtue in other words and i’m
27:07
going to end by just
27:09
saying as i have been working with the
27:12
sidewalk project in toronto i’m just
27:14
going to give you a few examples of
27:17
areas where i think the technology used
27:19
properly
27:21
can actually bring great value
27:24
and judiciously so one is this notion of
27:26
radical mixed use
27:28
as we move away from segregating where
27:31
we live from where we work we shop
27:33
recreation culture in our cities
27:37
separating income by geography and so on
27:40
there are ways in which we can use
27:43
technology in terms of developing
27:46
flexible fungible building types
27:49
that actually are far more adaptable in
27:52
accommodating those kinds of seamless
27:55
mixes and interactions
27:57
mobility options
28:00
the famous last mile
28:03
a lot of our cities are very sparsely
28:05
populated too sparsely for conventional
28:08
public transit
28:09
can we use for example the inevitability
28:12
of automated vehicles
28:14
not privately owned but as part of
28:17
transportation services
28:19
to pick up
28:21
areas which conventional transportation
28:24
is not able to address
28:27
dealing with waste and waste management
28:30
clearly there are all kinds of ways in
28:33
which the sorting of waste the
28:35
transmission of waste through our cities
28:37
can be approved by new technologies
28:40
weather mitigation features making the
28:43
shoulder seasons
28:44
in our cities more adaptable now this is
28:47
going to be a combination of low-tech
28:50
no-tech and high-tech in order to
28:52
accomplish that
28:54
there’s a whole area of wood composite
28:58
modular buildings which is being
29:00
explored by sidewalk
29:02
innovations in regulation and financing
29:06
and this has a lot to do with affordable
29:07
housing so these are just a few of the
29:10
many many areas
29:12
where i think with a hard look
29:14
and
29:15
with a
29:16
an eyes-wide open view of the technology
29:20
we can benefit
29:21
but i go back to my essential point
29:24
what we have to be careful of is an
29:26
uncritical kind of euphoric embrace
29:30
of the technology letting it tell us
29:33
what kinds of lives we would like to
29:35
live
29:36
thank you very much
29:50
you
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