Ken Greenberg (Future Cities Forum 2018)

2022

Ken Greenberg
Future Cities Forum
February 23rd, 2018 Ottawa, Canada
Presented by Artengine and Impact Hub Ottawa in partnership with the National Capital Commission Urbanism Lab

A trio of keynotes kicked-off the Future Cities Forum including science-fiction writer and futurist Madeline Ashby, urban designer Ken Greenberg, and professor Tracey Lauriault, a researcher who specializes in big data and the city.

This diverse group shared their speculations on future cities in the context of emerging and disruptive technologies. How will and can we adapt the key lessons of urban design of the twentieth century and not be seduced by the same techno-utopianism that shaped cities in the past? As we are transformed and extended into the network, how will a citizen be in public or private in our new data-driven city? Who will be the heroes and anti-heroes of the cities to come?Ken Greenberg
Future Cities Forum
February 23rd, 2018 Ottawa, Canada
 …

Autogenerated Transcript from YouTube (if available)

Use CTRL+F to find key words if it is a longer transcript​.

0:02

um good evening everybody

0:11

i

0:12

was watching the digital wall go up

0:15

and it could almost be a summary of what

0:18

i’m going to talk about which is

0:20

essentially

0:21

what i wish for

0:23

and what i am concerned about what i’m

0:26

worried about

0:27

in this whole issue of technology i’ve

0:31

done the introduction

0:33

and

0:34

i’m my hypothesis my optimistic

0:37

hypothesis

0:39

is that there can be such a thing as a

0:41

human centered use of technology

0:45

and in fairness there should be a

0:46

question mark

0:48

after that because i think this is an

0:50

open question

0:53

what’s really interesting to me as a

0:55

starting point is how

0:58

the word technology has changed in

1:01

meaning

1:03

if you look at this dictionary

1:05

definition

1:07

the application of scientific knowledge

1:09

for practical purposes especially in

1:11

industry i’ll leave out the red part

1:13

machinery and equipment developed from

1:15

the application of scientific knowledge

1:18

only in the last perhaps 20 years or so

1:22

have we come to

1:24

an understanding of technology

1:26

so that whenever we use the word we’re

1:28

referring to something related to

1:30

computers

1:31

to the digital world which is

1:34

kind of an interesting twist

1:37

and

1:38

as you’ll see

1:41

i am going to talk as a kind of

1:43

cautionary tale

1:45

about an earlier meaning of technology

1:49

and an earlier version of technology

1:51

which i spent a great deal of my career

1:54

wrestling with

1:56

so

1:57

i think a number of things

2:00

have to be said right at the outset this

2:03

phenomenon seems to be inevitable

2:06

we’re doing it because we can there’s

2:09

something in our nature that will always

2:10

push those limits

2:12

there’s obviously a drive for profit

2:15

there’s a drive for convenience

2:18

but is this an unequivocal good

2:21

and are there and this is a rhetorical

2:23

question

2:24

critical choices that we have to make

2:27

about technology

2:30

and i want to talk first of all about

2:32

what we can learn from past embraces of

2:35

technologies in cities

2:38

uncritical adoption

2:40

leading to collateral damage to

2:42

unforeseen consequences

2:45

aftershocks reassessment

2:48

and then reaction

2:50

and i’m going to use this cautionary

2:52

tale

2:54

to

2:54

alert us

2:56

to the need to anticipate

3:00

this possibility

3:02

and

3:03

test our embrace of technology

3:06

against other values that we have so

3:09

here’s my cautionary tale

3:11

and it has to do

3:13

with the post-war embrace of the

3:15

automobile

3:17

which clearly the internal combustion

3:19

engine at the time was a wonderful

3:21

invention

3:23

which we in hindsight have overused and

3:27

abused

3:29

and i would liken this moment

3:32

to

3:33

1939

3:35

the new york world’s fair

3:38

the futurama pavilion which was put up

3:41

by general motors

3:43

which millions and millions of people

3:46

came to see

3:47

enthralled by the possibility for

3:50

transforming cities based on

3:53

the use of the automobile and general

3:55

motors at that time was not so much

3:56

selling cars

3:58

as they were selling a way of life

4:01

and people went on this moving circular

4:04

platform around a gigantic diorama

4:07

and curiously if you look at that it

4:09

looks

4:11

what that diorama

4:12

portrayed was something that looks

4:14

extraordinarily like

4:16

much of the suburban environment

4:19

surrounding all of our cities in north

4:21

america

4:22

so here was the euphoria

4:24

people thought

4:26

this these images are from white right

4:30

after world war ii

4:32

um the fact that young families could

4:35

get these automobiles there was a mass

4:37

exodus from the city

4:39

that this would be the gateway to a new

4:42

and wonderful form of life

4:45

and uncritically so and what that led to

4:48

very quickly

4:50

is a total restructuring of the city

4:53

which was replicated all over north

4:55

america and across the world

4:58

and it became what i sometimes refer to

5:00

as the suburban industrial complex

5:03

playing off dwight eisenhower’s

5:06

evocation of the military-industrial

5:08

complex and it involved

5:10

a really efficient organization of

5:13

financial institutions developers

5:15

lawyers builders brokers real estate

5:17

agents road contractors

5:19

who all became incredibly adept

5:23

at producing this kind of environment

5:25

and this could be a google

5:28

image

5:29

of pretty much any city in north america

5:32

producing this by the kilometer

5:34

very quickly and so where did that lead

5:38

um if you go clockwise in this these

5:40

images this is kind of time travel out

5:42

of the city after the war you have

5:45

upper left

5:46

a pre-automobile part of the city

5:50

as you move to the right the roads get

5:52

wider the radii on at the curbs get

5:55

larger the buildings get pushed back you

5:58

have parking lots appearing in front of

5:59

the buildings and eventually you get out

6:02

into an environment

6:05

where you really are not meant to be as

6:07

a pedestrian it’s kind of akin to being

6:09

standing on on the tarmac

6:11

in an airfield it has that quality

6:14

you’re not welcome

6:15

so

6:17

this produced all my text has

6:20

disappeared so

6:22

i will i will simply

6:26

explain that that that life magazine

6:28

cover appeared in 1961

6:31

and it was already pointing out that

6:33

this phenomenon was testing to failure

6:36

as quickly as it was created

6:38

the roads filled up the highways the

6:40

interstate highways in the u.s filled up

6:43

we polluted the atmosphere

6:46

we developed something that we hadn’t

6:47

anticipated which was a public health

6:49

crisis

6:51

from a sedentary lifestyle

6:54

where essentially we have levels of

6:56

obesity hypertension

6:59

heart disease even in children that we

7:01

had never anticipated and we developed a

7:04

complete dependence on fossil fuels

7:07

so

7:08

this is the world that we created and

7:11

belatedly we realized

7:13

that this kind of environment

7:16

could actually be harmful to your health

7:20

and so this is a wordle that shows the

7:22

heavy toll that this began to take on

7:24

people’s lives

7:26

and this is

7:28

something produced by the medical

7:30

officer of health in toronto

7:32

where you can see that as you move out

7:34

of the city center into the post-war

7:37

parts of the city that were created

7:40

around the automobile

7:41

all of those health problems that i was

7:44

mentioning start to appear

7:47

related proportionally to how much

7:49

people are car dependent and how much

7:51

they’re not walking anymore

7:53

in how much they have actually bought

7:55

into that kind of environment

7:58

so what has happened is a substitution

8:02

now which is really interesting this is

8:04

the reaction part

8:06

of the

8:07

so-called american dream or dare i call

8:09

it the north american dream which was to

8:12

have your own house your own lot your

8:13

own garden

8:15

every adult had a car

8:18

and that became a fleet of cars for

8:21

every adult in the household

8:23

to the point where we now have a

8:25

competing

8:26

and increasingly more potent version

8:29

of the dream

8:31

which is to live in a neighborhood where

8:32

you can walk to buy your groceries where

8:34

you have access to transit where you can

8:36

use a bicycle

8:37

and where you can live in a compact

8:40

environment

8:43

this has been

8:45

the subject of a book that i wrote which

8:48

has been my struggle

8:50

over the past few decades with that

8:52

earlier version of technology and

8:54

walking home i think sends

8:57

says it all

8:58

but the key

9:00

part of a

9:01

massive paradigm shift

9:03

that we have undergone is a reassessment

9:07

of the technology that drove that

9:10

transformation

9:11

of the urban world

9:13

and

9:14

the way in which it

9:17

insidiously reshaped the environment

9:20

that we live in

9:22

the pushback

9:24

started as a grassroots movement

9:27

and

9:28

my sister was an anthropologist often

9:31

pointed out to me

9:33

that

9:34

survival in culture depends on

9:38

people who

9:39

keep practices that are no longer

9:42

popular

9:43

alive so that they can be called upon at

9:45

a future time

9:47

when they’re needed for the survival of

9:49

a civilization and in fact in our case

9:52

the older neighborhoods the pre-war

9:54

neighborhoods

9:55

actually became a living example when

9:58

people started to embrace them

10:00

of all of those virtues of connectivity

10:04

of local shopping

10:06

of

10:07

kids being able to get to school on

10:10

bicycle or walking all of those

10:11

qualities that we had lost

10:14

with that embrace of automobile

10:16

technology

10:18

the urban land institute

10:21

had this show up on their radar screen

10:23

in 2013 this is the most prestigious

10:26

organization of developers

10:29

in north america and probably in the

10:30

world at this time and they sent out a

10:32

brochure to their

10:34

members people who are building real

10:36

estate and said

10:37

your consumers are now looking for

10:39

something else they’re not just looking

10:41

for the view from a tall condo they’re

10:43

actually looking for a neighborhood

10:46

and so my first assignment for the city

10:49

of toronto

10:50

was in this area which is east of

10:53

downtown toronto

10:56

it’s not

10:57

kind of surrounding the st lawrence

10:58

market and when i started there

11:00

recruited by mayor david crombee

11:03

back in the late 70s long time ago

11:06

that’s what it looked like it was a

11:07

gigantic parking lot

11:10

all the buildings were being torn down

11:12

to provide cheap parking for the office

11:14

buildings at king and bay in the heart

11:16

of toronto

11:18

and this is what has happened since as

11:20

part of the paradigm shift and reaction

11:23

all of the surface parking has

11:25

disappeared it’s all been replaced

11:28

by mixed income mixed-use

11:32

buildings

11:34

tens of thousands of people living there

11:36

public spaces and so on i was talking to

11:39

a young woman earlier in the crowd whose

11:41

thesis now is about what happens to

11:43

parking lots

11:44

this is actually a great example

11:46

of reverse engineering

11:49

from a

11:50

an excessive embrace of a certain

11:53

technology

11:55

we’re having to learn how to

11:58

rethink how we move in cities obviously

12:01

getting back on our feet getting into

12:03

transit who would have thought that the

12:05

bicycle

12:06

would reappear as a major form of

12:09

transportation

12:10

in the 21st century

12:12

critical political decisions

12:14

stopping the

12:16

spread of the highway network

12:19

william davis then the premier of the

12:22

province

12:23

made this extraordinary decision

12:26

and so the realization

12:29

had obviously become quite

12:31

widespread by that point

12:34

that this was extremely problematic we

12:37

have now a whole new generation of

12:41

engineering of streets

12:43

which yes we still have automobiles but

12:47

where we’ve reversed the pyramid reverse

12:49

the priority so top priority goes to

12:52

pedestrians

12:53

next cyclist next public transit and the

12:56

automobiles have their place so

12:58

the appropriate use of the technology

13:01

not its

13:03

being abolished but actually put in the

13:06

context of a different set of values

13:08

this is a street design manual from new

13:11

york city

13:12

which is actually redesigning all of its

13:16

rights of way

13:17

piece by piece all through the five

13:20

boroughs

13:21

and in light of that reversed set of

13:24

priorities so again reassessing the

13:26

technology

13:28

this is a great organization called

13:30

eight to eighty cities

13:32

which is a canadian non-profit that

13:34

argues that if you make a city work for

13:37

an eight-year-old and an 80-year-old as

13:39

indicator species

13:41

from the standpoint of active

13:43

transportation personal mobility it

13:46

actually works for everyone and here’s a

13:48

surprising finding

13:50

that people aged 60 to 79 and i fall

13:54

nicely in that category account for more

13:57

than a third of the biking boom

14:00

who would have thought this is not just

14:02

young people

14:03

who are doing this so i served as

14:06

interim chief planner in the city of

14:08

boston when the big dig was going on

14:10

this was the central artery built in

14:12

1950

14:14

which drove this enormous wedge through

14:16

the heart of the city which has been

14:18

replaced by the rose kennedy greenway

14:21

which you see here this is all about

14:22

that reverse engineering here’s the

14:25

project that james mentioned which is

14:27

this piece of elevated highway in

14:29

downtown toronto called the gardner

14:31

expressway

14:32

erected at about the same time

14:36

and i got involved with a wonderful

14:39

couple of donors

14:41

will and judy matthews

14:43

in creating

14:45

something which through a public

14:47

competition is now called the got the

14:49

bentway

14:51

we originally called it project

14:52

undergardner and we have repurposed that

14:56

space 10 acres

14:59

almost 2 kilometers under the gardner

15:01

expressway

15:02

as a public space on january 6 we opened

15:06

a skating trail

15:07

which you see here we had 20 000 people

15:10

who came out the first weekend

15:12

in 30 below weather to actually

15:15

experience this and we’ll be running

15:16

year-round

15:18

programs in this space so again

15:20

taking something that was designed for

15:23

one purpose that was an unloved

15:26

hidden space hiding in plain sight in

15:29

the heart of the city

15:31

and turning it into something completely

15:33

different

15:34

in light of a totally new set of

15:37

priorities and this this is what

15:39

happened on social media a virtual

15:41

uh explosion when people found

15:43

themselves able to use this space in an

15:47

entirely different way so i would argue

15:49

that that this is part of a whole

15:51

movement that has occurred of seeing the

15:55

city completely differently of instead

15:57

of

15:59

the pattern that we had fallen into

16:02

of

16:04

having a mental map of the city which

16:06

was described by numbered highways or by

16:10

major

16:11

vehicular arterials

16:13

we’re starting to understand the city

16:15

and this of course is toronto

16:18

navigating it

16:20

by greenways by ravines

16:23

by public spaces by a whole network of

16:26

active transportation

16:29

which is kind of reflecting this flip in

16:32

values that we’re experiencing

16:34

so now let me apply that cautionary tale

16:38

to where we are now

16:40

we are just at the beginning

16:43

i think early days or perhaps

16:45

significantly already into

16:48

another paradigm shift

16:50

which is coming about through the

16:52

embrace of this new version

16:55

of technology

16:56

it is touching every aspect of our lives

17:01

as was pointed out it is absolutely

17:03

pervasive

17:05

and can we draw some parallels

17:08

with our experience

17:10

with the automobile in terms of making

17:12

choices about how to use this technology

17:16

clearly it opens many remarkable

17:19

possibilities

17:21

for cities

17:22

but also raises many very valid concerns

17:25

including concerns around privacy

17:28

control ownership use of data

17:30

potential for social isolation

17:33

narrow banding

17:35

loss of common ground with implications

17:38

for the heterogeneous society that we

17:40

are particularly in canada

17:43

diminished

17:45

human non-virtual encounters

17:48

which is a great preoccupation for me

17:51

loss of social skills people who are

17:54

uncomfortable actually talking to each

17:56

other

17:57

would prefer to text and talk which i

17:59

find

18:01

absolutely incomprehensible

18:04

but the question is can we selectively

18:08

and consciously

18:09

harness

18:10

harness the best that technology can

18:13

offer in a mindful way

18:16

without sacrificing the qualities of

18:18

cities that we value

18:20

now eliminating human

18:22

contact is nothing new this is the

18:24

automat from new york city in the 1940s

18:28

this was a big deal instead of going

18:30

into a restaurant and dealing with a

18:31

waiter you walked up to this wall and

18:33

all these

18:34

meals appeared from behind the wall

18:37

there were actually

18:38

cooks behind there this wasn’t being

18:40

done by robots this was all being done

18:42

by hand but this was a great novelty

18:44

that you could

18:45

avoid human beings this way and this is

18:48

the contemporary version

18:51

of the automat called itsa

18:53

where again you’re pulling your food out

18:55

of a wall and you’re not interacting

18:58

with another human being

18:59

and then this phenomena which is

19:02

becoming very

19:04

quickly

19:05

arriving upon us

19:07

of getting to shopping being entirely

19:11

alone essentially replacing

19:14

all human contact so the real question

19:16

for me

19:18

and i use retail or shopping as an

19:21

example

19:22

is

19:23

shopping only about consuming and

19:27

getting the goods and services that we

19:29

need in the most efficient

19:31

cheapest way

19:33

or is there something about the

19:35

experience of being on a shopping street

19:38

being in a market

19:40

as a social experience

19:43

the sights the sounds the smells the

19:46

contact the chance encounters

19:49

the ability to act to and interact with

19:52

other human beings

19:54

that actually brings an entirely

19:56

different set of values do we really

19:58

want

19:59

amazon to wipe out all of our main

20:02

streets

20:03

which is their avowed purpose

20:05

i think that’s a reasonable question to

20:07

ask

20:09

so this this is just a

20:11

cartoon from the new yorker that i quite

20:13

liked

20:16

but here we are now no more cashiers

20:20

is this fun this is the new amazon store

20:23

you can walk in and out without

20:25

exchanging a word with anybody

20:28

never encountering a human being who

20:30

would know anything about any of the

20:32

products that are there the produce

20:35

the fish the meat the cheeses all the

20:37

things that we like to talk about when

20:39

we actually go to a market

20:41

clearly there’s a place for this

20:44

but do we want is that the world that we

20:46

that we want to live in

20:48

to what extent are we

20:50

willing or

20:51

[Music]

20:54

deciding

20:56

without being conscious about it to

20:58

retreat into

20:59

virtual cyber worlds eliminating human

21:03

contact this is something that drives me

21:05

crazy in the airports there is an

21:07

american company

21:09

that is actually installing these

21:12

screens

21:13

excuse me

21:15

everywhere in the waiting areas in

21:17

airports so rather than sitting and

21:19

talking to people you wherever you sit

21:22

down

21:23

you’re immediately face to face

21:25

with a screen which is bombarding you

21:27

with information obviously trying to

21:29

sell you things

21:30

i like this quote from michelle obama

21:32

recently when she came to visit toronto

21:35

social media can do two things it can

21:37

bring us together or can keep us

21:38

isolated a life looking into your phone

21:41

is not a life she said you have to break

21:44

out of your silo

21:47

there was a really interesting piece in

21:49

the globe and mail

21:51

last week

21:52

this was a conversation between jim

21:54

vasily and a psychiatrist named david

21:58

dodge deutsch rather

22:00

i would really urge you to read it

22:02

particularly the comments of david

22:04

deutsch the psychiatrist

22:06

but he was really arguing that phone

22:09

addiction and fomo fear of missing out

22:13

can actually stunt growth

22:15

particularly in this next generation of

22:18

children

22:19

that it does things to our brains

22:22

that make it

22:24

increasingly difficult for us to

22:27

actually have and enjoy social

22:29

interaction the fear of talking

22:32

to other human beings of making eye

22:34

contact

22:35

uh all of those social skills

22:37

that are put at risk and it’s a very

22:40

chilling

22:41

conversation

22:42

so the question is do we want this is a

22:45

starbucks starbucks of course are

22:48

designed

22:49

for no human interaction

22:51

everybody is sitting there with their

22:53

laptop or their phone

22:55

do we want to be alone together

22:59

or do we want to actually be together

23:01

together this is a little cafe in my

23:03

neighborhood that i really like you’ll

23:05

see the screens there it’s not the

23:06

technology

23:07

isn’t present

23:09

but i want you to look at where people

23:12

are sitting there’s a counter

23:14

where you sit and have your coffee and

23:16

your pastry or your sandwich it’s 30

23:19

centimeters wide

23:20

it’s a long plank

23:22

so when you sit there as those people

23:25

are doing

23:26

you are actually invited to have a

23:28

conversation with your neighbors

23:31

and it works

23:32

and you don’t feel like you’re pressured

23:34

to do so but it is an environment that

23:37

is designed for people to interact now

23:40

what are the implications for a

23:41

heterogeneous society i’ve mentioned

23:43

that this i love this pair of

23:45

photographs on the top at the old gurman

23:47

wards distillery in toronto

23:50

you had the guys and they were guys

23:54

in the early part of the 20th century

23:55

who worked there who all lined

23:56

themselves up against the wall

23:59

and more recently the people who work in

24:00

the distillery district decided to

24:02

replicate that photo and of course you

24:04

see

24:06

the gender differences you see people

24:08

from all over the world all ages

24:11

society has changed completely

24:13

what if we never get to actually know

24:16

each other face to face

24:18

what are the implications of that what

24:20

if we’re only encountering each other

24:22

online or through the windshields of

24:24

automobiles

24:26

as our society becomes more and more

24:28

heterogeneous

24:29

these are the kinds of things that can

24:31

happen this was in brampton

24:33

where a group of people from western

24:35

canada came in and started putting this

24:37

poster up

24:39

trying to develop fear and phobia about

24:42

the

24:43

south asian population

24:45

and they took a photograph which was not

24:47

canada at all it was a riot that

24:48

happened in india and what i loved was

24:52

the high school students in brampton

24:54

replicated the poster

24:56

and

24:58

portrayed themselves and said yes this

25:00

is really the world that we want because

25:03

they were being told by this other

25:05

poster to fear it

25:07

i think in order for that to happen we

25:09

need the human interaction

25:12

so this this is where i am kind of

25:14

coming to this is from uh i don’t expect

25:16

you to read this this is from a recent

25:18

article i wrote in spacing

25:20

i would encourage you

25:22

to have a look at it but what i

25:24

basically argue and this is the reason i

25:26

have involved myself

25:28

with sidewalk

25:30

is that we have to not ignore

25:34

this

25:34

wave of technology

25:36

we have to proactively engage with it

25:40

we have to raise these issues we have to

25:42

bring

25:43

value-laden questions into the

25:46

conversation

25:47

talk about appropriate use of the

25:49

technology where we want

25:52

sophisticated technology where we want

25:55

low-tech or no-tech

25:57

in our cities and make conscious choices

26:00

so the question at the i’ll just read

26:03

the last sentence the questions for me

26:04

often come down to how a human-centered

26:07

urbanism

26:08

could be aided by technology not be

26:10

subverted by it

26:11

can we assess potential solutions

26:13

against human values and decide when to

26:16

say no not exactly

26:19

bend inflect and choose

26:22

so here is a younger colleague of mine

26:25

expressing

26:27

what she sees as the bargain

26:30

her name is zara ibrahim she’s very

26:33

involved as a community activist in many

26:35

things in toronto so this is what she

26:38

said to me the change in our

26:39

expectations that’s being shaped through

26:41

our digital lives

26:43

i.e i’m giving you my data give me a

26:45

better experience

26:47

is about to hit our urban lives as the

26:50

urban data movement hits us

26:52

citizens will expect a relatively

26:55

biometric city organic responsive

26:58

nuanced in understanding what they need

27:01

that’s can we turn the inevitability

27:04

into a virtue in other words and i’m

27:07

going to end by just

27:09

saying as i have been working with the

27:12

sidewalk project in toronto i’m just

27:14

going to give you a few examples of

27:17

areas where i think the technology used

27:19

properly

27:21

can actually bring great value

27:24

and judiciously so one is this notion of

27:26

radical mixed use

27:28

as we move away from segregating where

27:31

we live from where we work we shop

27:33

recreation culture in our cities

27:37

separating income by geography and so on

27:40

there are ways in which we can use

27:43

technology in terms of developing

27:46

flexible fungible building types

27:49

that actually are far more adaptable in

27:52

accommodating those kinds of seamless

27:55

mixes and interactions

27:57

mobility options

28:00

the famous last mile

28:03

a lot of our cities are very sparsely

28:05

populated too sparsely for conventional

28:08

public transit

28:09

can we use for example the inevitability

28:12

of automated vehicles

28:14

not privately owned but as part of

28:17

transportation services

28:19

to pick up

28:21

areas which conventional transportation

28:24

is not able to address

28:27

dealing with waste and waste management

28:30

clearly there are all kinds of ways in

28:33

which the sorting of waste the

28:35

transmission of waste through our cities

28:37

can be approved by new technologies

28:40

weather mitigation features making the

28:43

shoulder seasons

28:44

in our cities more adaptable now this is

28:47

going to be a combination of low-tech

28:50

no-tech and high-tech in order to

28:52

accomplish that

28:54

there’s a whole area of wood composite

28:58

modular buildings which is being

29:00

explored by sidewalk

29:02

innovations in regulation and financing

29:06

and this has a lot to do with affordable

29:07

housing so these are just a few of the

29:10

many many areas

29:12

where i think with a hard look

29:14

and

29:15

with a

29:16

an eyes-wide open view of the technology

29:20

we can benefit

29:21

but i go back to my essential point

29:24

what we have to be careful of is an

29:26

uncritical kind of euphoric embrace

29:30

of the technology letting it tell us

29:33

what kinds of lives we would like to

29:35

live

29:36

thank you very much

29:50

you

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