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foreign

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[Music]

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who is a designer and technologist a graduate of the MIT media lab

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she is deeply invested in Network Technologies with a particular focus on

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the browser as a space of interaction and intervention she’s concerned with

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developing critical design for Network space in particular considering it both

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from a ux UI perspective but also as a medium to develop new ways of thinking

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about culture so welcome Cali it’s nice to have you here

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thank you Ryan whatever here really means these days somewhere between

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somewhere between yeah um so uh we’re here to talk about

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um projects and ideas that were happening in our digital economies lab um and you uh had a at an interesting

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Arc as you were working through some of the ideas um early on you brought

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um some ideas together and two with a with the group that became the offer

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need machine but you uh along with Macy and Julie

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were really thinking very broadly about the ideas of ecology and uh and

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mushrooms in particular how did those ideas around trying to rethink the

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nature of networks through these ecological and uh sort of material

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metaphors come to be how did they sort of come into your practice I think it’s

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important to say that I generally like

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um I seeing technology or Tools in their

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not necessarily in under the guise of what they were designed to do

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um so very literally and in my practice I’ve always been interested in

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using slash misusing tools or

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um you know technology or different uh

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conventional ways that people have about solving problems and I think that for me I’ve always been

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really not just me I I have been curious in the history of the internet and the

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web and the history of networks that as we conceive of them in the 20th

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century which is a very technological medium because the network

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is you know through throughout Humanity the idea and the concept of a network is

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omnipresent um but specifically when it comes to the web I’ve been curious about the history and

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like essentially the way it came to be and I think that

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to the mushroom and the more uh natural ecology point you make I think that

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there’s always a lot of similarities between networks um that have been built by people to

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networks that have been built by nature and actually I think that

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most networks are built by nature in a way

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um and basically in a way the like the

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way we design and Implement um human-made man-made networks very

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closely mimics often uh the networks created and operated by nature which is

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basically the reason you know life exists on this planet uh what was it in particular about I

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think you know in terms of thinking of mycelium networks like what uh what was

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it um uh specifically about about those things because I think you know

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um the the idea of ecological metaphor of thinking of an ecosystem and a

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network um is not uh We’ve we’ve definitely heard of that and it’s like it’s

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something that we we can easily imagine these two things um having a kind of Rapport but uh

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mycelium networks is not something many of us are that familiar with so what what in particular was it about that and

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we were interested in material networks but we were also looking at the World Wide Web which is a term for how trees

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communicate at least I didn’t know all these things before um you know starting working on this and

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doing research uh and those two the Mycelia and the Woodward Network are

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actually very intimately connected because the Mycelia are the ones that do

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the signaling you know Underground um initially we kind of gravitated towards

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that direction because we were thinking in terms of

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what is not used in the manifestation of a

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network often and how can we make use of that so the very

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straightforward implementation of a network would be to just connect a few nodes and have them exchange something

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like in information or money whatever um and that’s what most networks tend to

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want to achieve we were interested in essentially kind of saying okay what is left out when

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this happens there must be something that is left out and some sort of

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um byproduct that we can maybe leverage and my Celia by Design work very much

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like that um so they facilitate processes that involved byproducts of

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other processes um and kind of digging more into that we

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started to see that the in a way the the way that those networks

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function is very similar to how networks of people would function specifically

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because we were of course interested in networks of artists or art related

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um networks that so trees that are networked together they

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tend to promote um like the soil becomes more fertile

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under the trace it’s not just the tree it’s happening it’s like let the soil around them it’s also happy so in a way

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we’re thinking oh like very clearly in a way um

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artists that live in cities that have strong cultural representation I mean

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that’s basically what an artist offers um to their surroundings and to where

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they are it’s this sort of ambient culture and I was then in still in New

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York so I was very much thinking along the line how do you take some of

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um this abstract thinking or what is the relationship for you between this abstract thinking

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um about a ecological systems you know forest and its structure how do you

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begin to translate that into a technical system that you’re thinking about or

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systems design that you’re thinking about like where where does the um what is it sort of inspiration or or

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how do you translate that uh those like High concept ideas into the building and

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thinking through of a Concrete Network or a technical Network yeah when you kind of want to leave the more

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theoretical plane where you talk about metaphors and ideas that do sound really

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engaging and you have to kind of you know say Okay proof of concept

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something how about we design and test something that translation is always

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where you often have to simplify things near his name or you have to kind of

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start from something very specific and I think that that is what we try doing and

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that is in turn what kind of led us to the need offer machine um

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I think very quickly we realized that we need to think more yeah we need to

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identify what this variable and what is a constant basically

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um and from that also identify what we are interested in changing or investigating

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or exploring so essentially what do we want to design for because we could not

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possibly come up with um I think we very quickly realized oh

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actually everything is so context specific um that it does make a difference if we’re

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talking about a community of artists that is you know

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um Fine Arts trained artists who paint versus the community of digital artists

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initially also those two communities might not necessarily talk to each other alone

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um so through this the process it was always like okay so what’s the ground

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zero where can we start who is the person that would actually benefit

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um it’s as if we were kind of chasing a storyline uh or trying to write the yeah a storyline

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around the Persona do you think do you think that element of of narrative

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um and even greater in the sense of language like how you talk about what

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you’re going to do um really shapes what comes out of that design process is that is that a very

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strong relationship that that you think is really important or is it sort of uh

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it really comes to Bear once you’re actually making and yes I do think that it’s specifically words are important

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but also it’s another word it’s the I guess the references that you

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structure and you create for yourself um

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a lot of times I feel like I do at least personally I Rely a lot on presidents

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and on references and other people’s work and I feel like often when I try to

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create the storyline or a sketch something even it doesn’t need to

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be designing like designing a

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an intervention it can just be sketching an interface or something

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um I do think that there’s usually two three a couple of

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things you do that tend to predetermine which way you’re gonna go uh like not predetermined maybe Prime is

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a better word I remember thinking about this when we were investigating my uh my

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cilia and the trees I was thinking well I know a lot of people from my community

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of artists and Technologies who are really interested in ecology and networks and alternative

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networks but it’s mostly given through the lens of cybernetics which is a very

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valid one um but I guess when it becomes

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the only primer um then you kind of tend to create work

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that folds very much along those tracks further down so yeah I definitely think that

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more holistically in my practice that um paying attention to what happens in

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the beginning of an idea or a project or like how you frame how you

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create it so that it opens the upper closes down from the beginning I think it’s important

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[Music] that’s uh interesting in relation to

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um one of the topics I’ve covered with a number of the Del participants and we

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have reflected a lot on it at Art engine about um

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you know when we published the call and when we when we put a framework around what we thought people would be doing in

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the digital economies lab we certainly um had a very technology first kind of uh

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tone maybe or at least you know we threw in a lot of buzzwords to try and drum up excitement but

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a lot of what happened even before the pandemic was a kind of

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um uh a reaction to that uh or seemed like

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a reaction to that framing from the participants to to shift towards

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thinking about um the human components first and not

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just as a kind of design approach but really thinking

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um where technology is an issue and how do we rethink that from an entirely

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different perspective um how do you feel about this like how did you navigate some of those those

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complexities between you know a sort of Technology first versus human first if I

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can create that false binary I think the answer to that is it’s very

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hard to do disentangle those two um

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and I at least my personal take he said techno nothing exists in a vacuum and so

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technology does not exist in a vacuum um I think that we were all very aware

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um about the things that can go wrong we were definitely more on the dystopia

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flavor of the spectrum and I still am there towards that side

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um but I think what could help and what I try to ask myself

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um and I’d also think it helps my design actually which I don’t think a lot of

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it it’s it’s not unrelated to my design as I wanted to say is asking who will

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use what I’m about to make um and I think that like thinking about that not just saying oh

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well someone would use it yeah okay you know like but but why or when or who

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will and also like who will not use it um who will be excluded from this

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technology um especially that question is I don’t

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think anyone in the who has been creating software or maybe design even

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design in the last 20 years probably I was asked that I

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think that it’s interesting um how we think about

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um inclusion and exclusion um and I wonder how um you think about

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it as a designer because I know um we often uh exclusion is a negative

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and inclusion is a positive you know in in a very general sense but you know we

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we do have to or want to create people that we are are trying to serve Target

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participate in order for any group Culture to exist there has to be an

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outside on which the inside is is predicated upon right any community group any

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organization has an outside and an inside um and if you know that idea that if if

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everything is everything well then it’s nothing right so how do you think about and maybe particularly through the lens

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of uh the project in its early phases how do you think about this idea of uh

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of of inclusion exclusion if we didn’t frame it that way if we thought well who is participating and how do we have

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um artists participate um so that they are welcomed and the

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focus for me and if they’re

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rather quickly through our process while working on it it has to do with

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what are the what’s the trust model within the

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community and who shares that so for me whoever shares it is part of the community and

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whoever doesn’t is not but that obviously is a very hard quote it’s very

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difficult to Define that you usually usually identifies boundary but you

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cannot say oh it’s like yeah people need to speak uglies and wear these clothes and

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really be very good with Photoshop um all these things are true

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um and maybe maybe there are communities where that it’s easier to define the

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like shared values than other communities

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um but it’s always very difficult to design with

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to just design around the set of shared values which I think in a way I think that

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software does that and that’s why often software is very problematic because there’s a very

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that’s you know the binary thinking is something that’s very useful for software but it does tend to spill over

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in the decision making and a lot of things around software

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um so when you have the list of things that you think are important and you create

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something for only that it always ends up backfiring in a way

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um and I think not because the reason is not because you designed something trying to please a certain

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culture or a certain Community however you might consider it it’s because you

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think that you have the ability to design for it I

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think that building uncertainty or like building ways that a

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software or a design model or an interface can

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fail or just admit it’s not doing what it’s supposed to be doing is something

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that globally neither design or software has done I mean obviously I don’t I

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don’t need you know the plane to be like okay I guess I’ll just fail yeah yeah

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um so it it is I guess a bit more complex but it depends what the what

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that kind of intention of the of the system is which I think is something really interesting that you guys were

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trying to think through is how how to um build

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um the foundations of a system that would allow for this this um and encourage a way of of being

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together I I wonder if we could touch on um you mentioned these shared values but

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the kind of complicated space between values as a as a as a like a systems of

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belief and value in this monetary idea yeah we brought the digital economies

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lab participants together to think through this entangled space of of

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economy and an economy in that broad broad sense that involves values and

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valuation in all of these these um these rich and complicated problems for you

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how did you think about value in relation to this project

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it’s always uh I think as is common to other artists thinking

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about um value or money sometimes it’s like oh I should not think about this or like

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you know it shows that they care only about money or um or that something is wrong with my

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practice because I do it on for the money which I think that throughout at least especially the first uh like the

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three days we were all together I think it was clear um and uh Jeremy was very uh instrumental

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in that that you know it’s uh it’s not a bad thing to want to be played

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um and for me I think that an artist create something and they should

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you know receive some support uh I don’t know if

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it’s from the state I don’t know if it’s from private donors maybe I don’t care but I think that they do create

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something that is shared by everyone so in a way it’s almost like it’s a public

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so I wouldn’t mind paying you know raising taxes and me paying more as

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someone who’s consuming or um you know obviously in Canada things

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are way better U.S in that context because the state does support markets I

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think I’m I’m trying to keep it’s hard to

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it’s hard for people to not think of money you want to think of value and maybe my problem is more with that

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which has nothing to do with the art I think it’s capitalism

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um but I think there are other ways of

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receiving like feeling like you got something that is useful to you

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um so for example I would go

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to you know shared co-working space or community space that has a fabrication

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lab if I could access the fabrication lab for free

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um I wouldn’t mind you know not being paid for the digital art I create or for an exhibit

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that we host at that place for example um but I mean obviously I don’t as with

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many other participants I also don’t do this full-time and I’m pretty sure oh

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probably a different opinion if it was on Reliant um on that sort of income when you guys

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were in these early discussions of thinking through this um

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uh this that some of these value questions um did you think of uh this Paradigm

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between say like we want um a system of exchange for artists

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um that would help them survive in a kind of fit under the capital system or

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one that is decidedly anti-capitalist was that a discussion that you that you had like when we kind of

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God more into the specific projects for us he was and actually what ended up being the

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need of a machine it’s very much in exchange of something you know it’s not the currency it’s it

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doesn’t have a monetary value or numerical value but because you think

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it equals the effort of someone else then you go into exchange it

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I mean yeah of course I would love to overthrow capitalism any day

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um I unfortunately I yeah I don’t know how

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I don’t actually don’t know how art would exist in that

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um post-capitalist world because if you

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think about it a lot of art has been very very close I mean art has always been very very close to money

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um in its very literal science and we would be talking about the very

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different consumption of the art world which I’m also having that discussion

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but I think it’s gonna be a long one well I think is that is that part and

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parcel um uh a bit of a say a different position around a project like this

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where um it’s maybe uh about eroding uh some of

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those components as opposed to fighting against them but uh but thinking about offering up incremental and interesting

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ways and alternatives to the ways things are being done in order to to to Foster

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the kind of networks of care that are needed within a cultural community we all say we hate capitalism you know

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we are against it whatever um but I think it’s hard to sit and

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think in what ways you actually are part of it and I think for

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example the way we immediately um our minds think of money every time

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we kind of know we owe someone something or someone else or something

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um so the fact that yeah the the word value has been almost

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uh made a synonym of money that is a very like the essence

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um kind of trying to undo that that would be huge

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um but like actively saying okay maybe it’s not money maybe it’s like one hour

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of something totally random like I don’t know you are an artist and you have a

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kid maybe it’s one out of me babysitting your kid because you want a heart obviously the specifics of that and like

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how do you make sure it’s an equal thing to whatever that’s another story but

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I think understanding that we don’t necessarily need to think in

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terms of money in terms of trade

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as a monetary like Financial financially

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uh as a financial I guess in the financial context

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um but also like all the other things that come with being in a capital Society

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like comparing ourselves um working us ourselves to the ground or

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like thinking that if you’re not poor or if you’re not really tired then you’re

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not a good artist yeah there’s always they seem to be Side Story lines but

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they think they’re very core they’re actually very much too hard and you mentioned uh this uh the hour and I know

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that that’s something that um uh the project was thinking through this as a unit and I it sounds like a

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bit what um you were trying to do was a bit like separate the the the monetary value that

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we put on an hour and have users begin to think about an hour as a unit but

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that’s not necessarily related to like how much would you be paid for that hour but what how would you like to fill an

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hour uh and what would you be able to offer for another in an hour because exactly like at the end of the

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day it’s an hour of if we think in those terms and I’m not

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gonna suggest that a doctor should think in those terms for

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example um like if you want to have an operation you should have the entire three hours

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um but again in the context of a community or like a group of people have agreed okay for

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us this is true then what difference does it make if it’s me or you it’s still one hour human who seems to think

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um the lines of every humanist community um

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and yeah we’re kind of trying to get to what has this been done like essentially we

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the per hour salary is a very common with like everywhere in every country

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yeah I was I cannot remember the details but

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remember looking it up like the history of how did we end up paying people by the hour

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I’m pretty sure it has to do with um really ancient times and like the Army

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basically as do many things

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um but oh yeah like even

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I guess yeah soldiers that are paid by not their own country to fight

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um which is kind of insane uh who thought of that

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that there’s a lot of problematic histories if we look back into wage

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wages that’ll just that that’ll be a rabbit hole that uh a darkness that we’ll have trouble emerging from

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um but which is I think uh what I find interesting um about that and kind of like

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um embedded in it is there some sense of subjectivity of time as well like that

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there’s a there’s a sort of like objectivity of the unit like an hour of time

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um but the idea of trying to build a system around how we might uh what what

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kind of things we could give to others where one hour of that for us is

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actually kind of either a joy to give or simple to give or easy to give because of a built up embodied knowledge which

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means that our would be a completely different experience for the receiver uh that was the I guess the point where the

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project really started morphing into the need of a machine um

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because we were thinking yeah it’s so powerful when someone like my partner

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he’s an architect and she’s really good with you know Rhino and all the 3D

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modeling software so obviously one of him doing that in

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one hour meeting not today yeah so in a way you were thinking wow this

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can the scaling when you have a constant

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which is one hour but you have the immense knowledge and skill that someone who

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really delves into the details or something like artists do uh like it’s exponential how big of a difference that

32:30

can make to someone created thinking more uh broadly about

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um about infrastructure I think you were um you know already very interested in

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infrastructure before you came into the program as part of your training was to

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think about technological and web infrastructures uh

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how did your thinking about infrastructure change and morph

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throughout the program or how has that been because we you know we we brought together a group of people to really

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think through cultural infrastructure um how how has that been over the course

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of the year and you’re thinking around infrastructure I have to say because I think I’m the only well not right now

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I’m in Canada but when I started I didn’t know what’s going to be to come down yeah

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and I stay in car still blows my mind how compared again to the US uh how

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supported or I guess not uh totally frantic uh the other participants were

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because I think again in the U.S which many things are more exaggerated you

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there’s no way I would have been able to be part of a program where people were discussing okay we have this funding and

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we are pretty confident that the um you know support from the uh Arts

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Council and the government will actually be there um what can we do which feels so open

34:04

and positive um exactly as it should I’m sure there’s problems obviously like everywhere but

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um I remember thinking that yeah there’s

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it felt very different from the U.S model where especially in New York you have to

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work your contacts and you have to there’s a very strong gallery

34:30

obviously system um and there are opportunities but they

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come in very different ways nothing is

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supportive it seems like and I know that in Europe it’s more like Canada in

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depends on the country but in many countries in Europe the Arts are not apps over hectic sort of Arena honestly I’m

34:57

still impressed by that um by how good and like it felt to me that people

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could have a decent living or maybe not you know most lavish of Lifestyles

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um and then I remember thinking that I was also impressed by the discourse

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around um indigenous Arts um and the fact that we were very

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all these things were very new to me um they still huh and

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yeah I remember thinking well people here at at least they’re not feeling like they’re being chased by something

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which definitely felt like in New York was the case even though I do think that

35:46

it being chased makes you run and when you run maybe you create something great

35:51

well I think I think you know speaking from the Canadian perspective especially

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you know growing up through uh through and emerging in like the cultural

36:02

environment but always having exchanges with the American organizations and artists and

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um and I think prior to the the last year not just the pandemic is huge but

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also um the last few years arising Consciousness about trying to you know

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bring reconciliation to some kind of a better place in Canada with indigenous

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peoples uh the black lives matter movement all of that rethinking Notions of uh of care and solidarity

36:35

um I think some of that intensity that maybe used to be enviable from the

36:42

outside in America of that that that running that you spoke of seems suddenly

36:47

very tiring once again and that this this

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um this idea of a really

36:57

deepening the safety net that is around cultural practice um how do we and that’s the question I

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think that’s one of the big conundrums it seems like how do we manage um maintaining the safety net and

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fostering Innovation at the same time um and maybe you know people like

37:18

yourselves who are moving between the two spaces will be will be able to to cultivate inside there yeah I mean it’s

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that I think that is a very good question I have a sense that in smaller countries slash communities like I was

37:32

actually thinking of the Netherlands right now um where I know that there is again like

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Canada quite a lot of support but they’re very small and it’s just much easier to think of

37:44

yourself as a to like be you know collaborate with many institutions

37:51

before I I definitely think that

37:56

nothing sustainable especially when it comes to like

38:02

reconciliation with uh you know tense uh Concepts like the

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indigenous population and its role in Canadian culture and Society you cannot

38:16

really resolve things unless you feel supported so I think that

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and for example I don’t think that’s happening in the U.S so back still on the question of

38:30

infrastructure um as a designer and technologist

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um you know how um how is that um part of your practice uh changed over

38:44

these last few years and even before the the DL I know you were like attracted to

38:51

some of these ideas of changing and thinking differently about design but certainly uh changes has come in rather

39:00

forceful and all-encompassing ways over the last year

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um no of course there’s still um uh interested in rethinking and

39:12

creating well there’s I I think I operate in two modes there is a mode where I find

39:19

it goes through phases where I have time to read um and kind of look at

39:25

other people’s work and when I do that then suddenly things just come to my

39:30

head but there’s also this other mode where some days I wake up and I’m like oh I have a great idea and then I try to

39:39

either design it usually a work be doing both design and software so if I like I

39:46

want to create this software that does X and Y usually I can

39:53

kind of conceive of how it will look and I can also program it

39:58

um so for me that’s like a Sprint um in the past months I feel like I’ve been

40:04

able to operate more like that I think when I was at the lab

40:10

because of the environment because you have more I guess it’s a more of an academic place

40:16

they used to I read a lot um often I feel like those two things

40:21

are kind of intention with each other whenever I read a lot maybe you’re not making as much and whenever I make it

40:27

don’t make a lot um I am wondering how the last I guess year

40:34

I have been wondering okay how the way what I make and the way in which

40:40

I share it mattered to me um and how can I

40:47

especially in the context of you know what’s going on social media but also questions of authorship and things like

40:54

that um so I’m I am still trying to figure out okay do I just create things and

41:02

release them and tell people on Twitter or do I put on a website do I try and

41:07

apply for uh residencies or like some sort of show

41:13

I still have no family right answer uh I do think that it’s Project Specific though

41:20

um and I I mean the question of networks and how

41:27

can we how can our current tools be better and

41:33

how can I promote help promote a critical conversation I think I will always think about those things for sure

41:40

uh this has been a great conversation and I and I were as we sort of draw to

41:46

the end here maybe can you tell us a little bit about what you’re working on now or where you’re headed next

41:52

yeah um so for the last I guess here yeah

41:58

I’ve been interested in um gestures

42:04

and computers uh so basically interaction

42:09

but in this very Elemental way so clicking scrolling

42:17

um dragging and in a way I’m asking myself okay what can

42:25

I make with this like very simple first of all it’s really interesting

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that we are the way we use computers and interfaces

42:37

um is still governed by the same rules that the people who first designed them came

42:44

up with um which maybe it makes sense maybe nothing

42:50

um so in a way okay what if scrolling was behaving in a different way or what

42:56

if a browser which I usually prefer to work on because I think it’s such a powerful

43:02

window into so many things um what if a browser looked completely

43:08

different um or what if the desktop metaphor just doesn’t exist anymore and we can each we

43:15

can conceive of computing in a very different way so like personal computing

43:23

um and that usually takes the form of uh small I guess executables I mean I

43:30

create like this small software that you can install on your computer and just pops up a window where

43:37

the default interaction behaves very differently so

43:43

you try scrolling and it something else will happen or like you try clicking and

43:48

you need to click in a specific way or for the browsers I’ve been curious on

43:54

whether people can make their own browsers so basically this already exists there are

44:00

open source browsers um but more specifically I’m interested

44:05

in how they they the interface so the

44:13

the verticality I guess the feed I think a lot of things in the last 10 years

44:19

that a lot of 10 15. so think of social media

44:25

um they 100 depend on the on scrolling basically for swiping up and down

44:33

um so what if that didn’t exist what would you do

44:38

um how would the feed I was thinking what if the feed was like files on your desktop that would be so

44:46

stressful um which then brings me to the question of

44:54

like okay what what am I doing and how am I sharing it um which yeah I still don’t have nothing

44:59

to do but I just enjoy the exploration that’s great that sounds like we could

45:06

start a whole other conversation just about to feed and the and and speculate on what it would be like if we didn’t

45:12

have feeds in our life in setting new development yeah the

45:18

endless stream and that that is a curse and a blessing uh

45:25

well thanks very much for your time today uh and uh I look forward to seeing some of these experiments soon

45:32

thank you bye-bye

45:42

there we got an actual goodbye they actually left because they have a meeting in like eight minutes

45:47

[Music]

45:59

as well [Music]

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