0:01

Simranpreet: Well, so normally a Phulkari is not embroidered on an embroidery hoop,

0:07

but because this is an antique Phulkari,
it was woven so long ago that the

0:12

the warp
and the weft of the fabric has sort of bonded together over time.

0:17

And so you sort of need a hoop in order tp hold it in place.

0:22

But usually when you weave fabric,

0:25

if you’ve just spun the thread and stuff, it’s a lot

0:30

crisper, the fabric hasn’t softened over time.

0:34

So I’m using an embroidery hoop to embroider this today.

0:39

Usually Phulkari is much larger than this. It’s about 3.5 ft by 8 ft.

0:45

And this is a Phulkari that was
cut up into cushion covers and then gifted to me

0:54

So you can tell like from the edges being cut and

1:00

even the hard crease that sort of won’t go away.

1:04

But also how the embroidery stayed intact in the edges of the

1:09

pillow case that were, I would imagine, you know, folded in.
I was really interested in how it’s worn away over time

1:16

because the silk floss, which I’m using to embroider it, is unspun
and you can see

1:23

these pieces of silk and how they

1:26

start to fray over time. I might have to cut some of this off.

1:29

And because of the history of Phulkari
it’s very hard to learn it from someone.

1:38

Phulkari is from Punjab, which is a state in modern day India.

1:44

But the British colonized India and when they left in 1947,
part of what happened is that state of Punjab got split into two

1:55

and they drew an arbitrary line across the land
and everyone on this side of the line had to

2:02

go to Pakistan and everyone on this side was India.
So if you’re Muslim you went to Pakistan,

2:07

and if you’re anything else you went to India.

2:10

And so a lot of people
were displaced because of it and Phulkari

2:16

is something that is really tied to the land
because people would grow their cotton and

2:20

grow their dyes and it was a very sort of home based practice.

2:25

And so the practice kind of stopped overnight during partition.

2:30

So you’ll find a lot of antique Phulkaris
that you don’t really know the provenance of

2:37

because those families had to leave all of their belongings behind.

2:40

And so now people will sort of find them and collect them
and sell them,

2:45

which I’m imagining is where this Phulkari came from.

2:48

So they would be passed down matrilineally,

2:51

but I don’t have any Phulkaris that were passed down to me,
because I think they were all lost during the partition.

2:58

My partner, his great grandmother, wove and embroidered two Phulkaris

3:02

that we have now, but yeah, I’ve been really interested in this practice and learning this practice.

3:07

And so one of the things about embroidering it
is that when you look at the back,

3:13

all you see are these dots.

3:15

And that’s because silk has been and is very expensive.

3:20

And the idea is for the silk
to remain on the front side of the embridery.

3:26

So you can see this part
that’s white that I’ve embroidered and the back side of it,

3:33

and that I have these very messy dots of embroidery,
but I’m really trying to count the stitches

3:43

and make these geometric patterns, but also learn from whoever
the woman was that embroidered this in the past.

3:49

For me, it’s really learning Phulkari through the textile itself
because it’s really hard for that knowledge

3:57

to be passed down now, especially through the multiple migrations
of like Western Punjab to East Punjab.

4:02

And then my family coming to Turtle Island and then me being here.

4:07

So it’s kind of learning from the material that you have at hand.

4:11

And so this practice is tied to that. And so

4:14

my intervention is all of the white embroidery, which

4:17

is sort of ivory color, and you can see the floss that I’m using.

4:22

So this piece would be called a Panchrangi Bagh.
And panch is related to five, rangi is colors.

4:30

So it was a Phulkari that was five colors and Bagh means garden.

4:35

So usually a Phulkari that is fully covered in embroidery is a Bagh, and

4:41

Baghs are usually quite auspicious

4:46

and there is a particular Bagh called the Chand Bagh, and Chand means moon and garden.

4:53

And so I’m interested in the Chand Bagh
and how that would be like a very auspicious Phulkari

5:00

that would be given at a wedding or a birth
and the sort of celebratory aspect of it.

5:05

But then also visually like the sort of sorrow
or mourning of white within South Asian cultures.

5:12

and how that becomes a part of the textile. And there
would have maybe been multiple people embroidering it

5:23

because it would

5:24

it would be a very social practice
and this is why I’m interested in working and embroidering

5:29

with other people rather than just sitting by myself.

5:34

But even when I’m embroidering it,
I can see the ways in which like on the back of the textile,

5:40

the ways in which the stitch sort of
changes in different parts of the textile.

5:46

And you can imagine that were different people working on it.

5:49

So you can see this seam down here.

5:55

So what would happen is that because people
were weaving these at home, they would have a very small loom

6:03

and the panels are usually about this wide
and there are three panels

6:08

on a typical Phulkari.

6:12

And so you can see that this panel was woven to this width
and then attached to another panel

6:18

and so there’s so much planning that would go into it
because on the front it’s

6:24

you don’t see, like there’s no interruption
in the actual pattern of the embroidery usually.

6:30

And if there is, it’s all so planned out.

6:33

So there’s a lot of sort of meticulous planning
that went into the making of the textile

6:39

from just the weaving and counting, of the warp and the weft,
and then making these very geometric patterns.

6:47

And this particular pattern is sometimes called
a barfi pattern, and barfi is like a

6:54

Punjabi sweet and it’s usually cut in these diamond shapes.

6:59

And so even though it’s like very geometric and sort of abstract,
they’re these things that would go from daily life

7:05

into the patterning of the Phulkari.
And so not all Phulkaris are these geometric patterns.

7:11

There are a lot of different designs
if you look through the sort of different styles

7:17

of Phulkari and they would be related to the families
or the women who are making the textiles.

7:23

So there are some that are a little bit more figurative.

7:25

They’ll have illustrations of people on them or jewelry.

7:31

Later on into the colonial period,
you would see people put trains on Phulkaris.

7:38

So it would be
these wishes that people are having for their children

7:43

or grandchildren to travel or to have jewelry,
so they’re woven or embroidered into the textile itself.

7:51

But this pattern of Phulkari is very common to the place
in West Punjab, which is now Pakistan that my family’s from.

8:01

So I’m also interested in this particular textile for that reason.

8:06

Jaimie: So would you say that these are regional too? Can you tell the region?

8:11

Simranpreet: Yeah, so you can kind of tell the region.

8:14

It takes a lot of research to know where something’s from, especially because people don’t really make them in this way anymore.

8:25

You get a lot of machine made Phulkaris nowadays,
because Phulkaris are still important in rituals.

8:32

So even if people don’t have these like really meticulous,
handmade textiles, you still have the sort of emblems of the Phulkari

8:42

that are part of Punjabi culture.

8:45

Yeah, so the different styles are attributed to different regions,
but also sometimes

8:52

because Phulkari is also a practice that’s not Hindu,
Sikh or Islam it would be sort of just related to the family.

9:02

You get sort of some differences based on
maybe what the perceived religious background of makers would be

9:10

because they would add things
that are emblematic of their faith based practice into the Phulkari.

9:16

But it’s also a very interesting practice to me in the sense that it

9:21

it crossed those boundaries of faith and that women of all faiths… and with the sort of current

9:29

political climate of India, it’s changed a lot more for religions
to be or spiritual practices to be very discreet.

9:36

But people were a lot more mix and intermingled at the time.

9:41

And current politics have really played into it.

9:44

And this idea of, you know, like the separation of Pakistan
and India and one being like a Muslim state and one being a,

9:52

I’m forgetting the word,
but it’s supposed to be a multitude of different religions,

9:59

but it’s not really with the rise of right wing movements
and so it’s changed

10:06

a lot this also having discrete religious practices
and things like Phulkari

10:12

that broke those boundaries are also not as prevalent.

10:17

So my family has a Sikh background and some of my other work,

10:22

so I have this work
that I’ve been making that I’m hoping to have a series of,

10:27

but I took this photo in my partner’s grandparents house
and it has these two images of the Sikh Gurus. And

10:38

I’m really interested in these portraits
because you see them in so many diasporic homes.

10:44

So even if you go to like South Hall or Brampton or Surrey,
like all of these places that have like very dense Punjabi

10:51

populations, you’ll see these portraits, like across the world.

10:54

And so I’m really interested in how this particular image

10:59

has circulated, and it’s because this sort of governing body of Sikhs

11:05

that also has these relations with colonial rule
and religions having to be discreet.

11:12

And I also don’t think of Sikhism as like an ism
because that’s

11:18

a very colonial way of…
And for me, it’s much more of a spiritual practice

11:23

than a quote unquote religion because that’s also a term
that, you know, the British introduced to us.

11:30

And so you see those
portraits that were commissioned by the governing body

11:38

being like the first photo realistic painting of the gurus,
and it’s also,

11:44

you know, codifying what a Sikh should look like
and that’s in a way making Sikhs more discreet

11:53

from Hindus or Muslims, and really creating Sikh identity
that then perpetuates throughout households.

12:00

And so with this photo project that I’m doing, I’m interested in
like how those portraits are situated within households,

12:08

but then also like what that intimate place looks like
and what are the other sort of things

12:15

that inhabit these spaces and how do they change or not change
when you go from house to house.

12:21

But definitely it’s become much more of a

12:25

you know, you belong to this thing
and this is like your space and it becomes a lot more discreet.

12:31

And I mean, you can also draw that back
to the British sort of divide and conquer. So, yeah.

12:39

Jaimie: So have you found while you’re doing the embroidery
as you practice more and more,

12:44

have you gotten better, I guess?

12:48

Simranpreet: Not yet, because it’s so well done on the back,

12:52

it’s really hard to read where they started and finished,
and also because it’s not an entire textile

12:59

and it’s only a piece. And I think once I’m done this work,

13:04

I want to… I actually found a Phulkari that is incomplete,

13:09

like a full Phulkari that’s incomplete. So I’m interested in looking at that and seeing where

13:16

maybe they started and learning through that textile in that way
and then hopefully completing it in some way

13:22

because that’s like a real collaboration between this person
that’s unknown and myself. But

13:29

it’s harder in these

13:30

pieces that have like really random parts that are missing
because you don’t follow the thread all the way through.

13:37

And it’s a lot more sort of — I start and then finish, start
and then finish. And you can sort of see that my embroidery

13:43

is a lot looser there because you can’t get it as taut versus
these bigger patches that are missing

13:50

it’s a lot easier to follow the thread all the way through
and then reverse it back.

13:57

So you can tell that the parts that are interspersed
with the previous embroidery

14:03

are a little bit looser, and that’s because there are all these smaller
pieces of thread rather than like a really long piece of thread

14:10

that’s like following through and back and through and back.
But I don’t know if I’m better at it yet.

14:16

And also Silk is such an interesting medium
to work with because it’s so fragile

14:24

and slippery compared to a cotton embroidery floss.

14:28

So it behaves very different
and I think more than like getting better at it

14:33

I’m starting to learn the material
a little bit better and how it behaves

14:39

which is really interesting, like how different materials…

14:43

And you really get a sense of
where these materials come from and their

14:49

like haptic qualities.

14:54

But yeah, I also want to over time, it’s really

15:00

at least how I’m thinking about it right now,

15:02

like a lifelong practice of you know, learning how to

15:06

spin the cotton and make it into thread and then weave it.
So I know how to weave and I’ve woven fabric,

15:14

but I’m hoping to embroider a full Phulkari, but it’s just so time

15:18

consuming, and I think it’s okay for it to be a slow practice,

15:23

because like the forces of labor and capital extraction,
make you want to make things fast and like sell things.

15:31

And for me, it’s more of just like, make it and make it slowly.

15:35

And then also too, not necessarily like… I think if I ever sold the work, it would be when it’s complete.

15:43

But also to someone who understood the weight of the labor and the labor of love that goes into making something like this.

15:55

Jaimie: And the labor to understand
and to learn the process and the material.

15:59

I see this almost like a document
that you’re reading.

16:03

Simranpreet: Yeah, it very much is because you really learn a lot
from the back of the embroidery, but you have to look at it

16:11

so closely in order to learn from it
because every stitch is so meticulous and

16:19

you read it like it’s a different language.

16:25

It’s a visual language, but it is a language.

16:28

And I’ve really wanted to find people who are elders
in our community who could teach me, but it’s like

16:35

people have stopped making Phulkari for so long
that a lot of the women who ever made one are, you know,

16:42

in their eighties and nineties and it’s not possible for them to do
this kind of detailed work or teach this sort of detailed work.

16:49

And there are other artists who are really interested in Phulkari.
Jagdeep Raina is one of them.

16:55

So I think there are a lot of us who are from this region ancestrally that are artists that are really thinking about Phulkari and

17:06

its history and its relationship to artistic practice.

17:10

So it’s been also nice to be a part of,
you know, an artistic community.

17:15

But that also has taken so long, because the arts are

17:22

something that our community has sort of lost

17:27

its love for over time and

17:31

even becoming an artist is like such a big deal.

17:33

Like there are so few Punjabi artists,
not even just in Canada, but in the world.

17:39

And so you know, finding other people who are part of that community both artistically and culturally is such a big

17:48

important thing as an artist to me
because it’s such a small community and

17:54

a lot of us are also displaced from that context

17:57

of Punjab and our families aren’t there anymore
for a variety of different reasons.

18:02

And so it’s also like traveling the world
to find that connection, which is a very

18:10

difficult thing, but also a beautiful thing at times.

18:15

Jaimie: Finding those networks and connections to

18:20

cultural resurgence in a way through practice
and yeah, learning together,

18:25

that’s so beautifully said. And across the board I think also that’s happening in so many different nations

18:36

through textiles
and form and material, and it’s just incredible to see.

18:41

Simranpreet: Yeah, and I think these are, you know, especially at this point of

18:49

the world that we’re in, with this kind of global
climate catastrophe that we’re going through,

18:55

it’s really important to think back to these more sustainable ways
of living and thinking and working.

19:03

And these practices are so tied to those things,
like a really deep connection to the land and understanding of land.

19:12

And it’s also like, you know, really hard for me to say that
as someone who’s a settler on this land,

19:19

because it’s like in one way I’m disconnected from the land
that I’m from, but I’m also a settler

19:27

who’s in some ways contributing to the extraction
from the communities that are from here.

19:32

And it’s like really important for me as a person
and as an artist to understand those complexities

19:39

and to be aware of them and to know my place. But

19:45

I think that is a kind of continual

19:47

learning that needs to happen, not just from me, but from everyone.

19:54

Jaimie: And learning I think, and building relationships,

19:59

in diverse communities are so important.

20:01

And that’s how that knowledge transfer happens. Like it
builds relationships,

20:08

like these exhibitions, artists are talking and communities start happening outside their own communities.

20:15

And I think that’s so important to share that knowledge.

20:18

Simranpreet: It’s interesting, so I’ve done…

20:22

Like I had a major exhibition
that was at The Reach, and so with that exhibition

20:27

I did a lot of Punjabi media. So like Punjabi radio and Punjabi TV.

20:32

And it was interesting
because one of the things that they would ask me sort of about

20:41

what do I want to say to the community?

20:44

And one of the things I really like tried to
express was that we need to go

20:51

see art. And not just like Punjabi artists,
but also Indigenous artists and Black artists and other artists,

20:58

and really understand what’s happening in other communities
because art is such a conduit for those knowledges.

21:08

And I think that’s also like making art more important within our community.

21:14

Jaimie: It’s so true, with learning through arts, and different textures of knowledge too,

21:19

because not everything can be read or understood by text or talking heads, but through materials, and then connecting people and making those relationships.

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