0:08

>> I am absolutely thrilled to be in
conversation for the next hour-and-a-half

0:16

with Anong Migwans Beam beside me and Chaka
Chikodzi and Deirdre Logue and Allyson Mitchell.

0:26

And we are going to talk today
about their works in the collection

0:33

of the Agnes Etherington Art Centre. And we have a selection of
those with us in person.

0:40

So Chaka’s piece is the sculpture at the back. And then we also have Deirdre and
Allyson and Anong’s pieces here.

0:52

And I have — my first question is actually
about — I also have them on slides.

1:01

You know, so they’re all over us here. And I wanted to begin — I wonder,
actually, if I could ask you, individually,

1:13

the first question and then, in asking you
that question, to introduce you at that moment.

1:21

Is that okay? And Anong, I’d like to start
with you, if that’s okay. So I’ll give an introduction here.

1:30

So Anong Migwans Beam is a painter from
M’Chigeeng First Nation on Manitoulin Island

1:39

and is inspired by the physical history
of place, the natural landscape,

1:44

and the relationship between water and memory. Anong was born to artist
parents, Carl Beam and Ann Beam,

1:53

who encouraged her to develop as an artist. She was raised with a meaningful connection to both her artistic familial
roots and rich ancestral heritage.

2:05

Beam’s large format oil paintings, which
we don’t have yet in the collection,

2:11

incorporate a multitude of
image making approaches, including photo transfer,
printmaking, and collage.

2:18

And I just want to mention, too, that Anong
was just approved for a patent just last night

2:27

for Plantcrylic, a new paint. Because not only is she an amazing artist,
but she also runs a paint making company.

2:42

So Anong, I’ll ask you my first question. I have so many papers here. Can you tell us a bit about these works?

2:53

And I’ll point to the two of them
here and the two on the screen. Maybe I’ll mention how they
came in the collection.

3:00

They were — so they’re titled
Summer Monarch and Honey Bee.

3:07

And we were very lucky to receive them as part
of a larger donation from Nicholas Diamant,

3:14

who is a Queens University professor. And I should mention, too, that in accepting
gifts of artworks and collections of artworks,

3:27

we don’t take them all in an unconsidered way.

3:32

We consider the collection of its parts. And we were so pleased that
he had, at one point,

3:41

acquired your work and then gave them to us. And I wonder if you could tell
us a little bit about them.

3:50

Do you want this one? >> Sure. Am I supposed to — it doesn’t matter.

3:57

>> This one. >> Is it on? Okay. Hello. Thank you so much for coming out. It’s a real pleasure to be here and
to be with everyone on this panel.

4:08

This is so — it is really interesting. I’ve had such a unique viewpoint of
collecting, as I’m a collector myself.

4:17

And I have a wonderful collection of
art from my favourite artists and people

4:24

that I’ve met along the way and watching
my parents as professional artists

4:29

and being a child, seeing them navigate
purchases and donations, acquisitions,

4:35

art dealers, and then experiencing it
myself as an artist, but also having worked

4:42

in curatorial practice and as a
director and on the other side

4:47

of what it takes to acquire
and accept donations. And it’s really quite an interesting thing.

4:54

There’s so many facets to
this, particularly in Canada, that makes it very unique
compared to, say, the US.

5:01

And a large part of that is due to donations and
what she mentioned, the institutional attention

5:12

to which donations are considered. Because donations aren’t just accepted easily.

5:18

And there’s actually a cultural —
a group called CCPERB that’s the —

5:24

the acronym for it, but Canadian
Cultural Property Review Board.

5:30

And they oversee the relationship between
institutions and the art that they accept

5:39

as donation or are — when they’re moving,
when art is moving around in the country.

5:46

And a big part of what they have to
do and what institutions have to do is to discuss the reasoning behind kind of the
long history of the particular work of art

5:57

and the artist making it and their
relation to the cultural history of Canada,

6:03

which is really asking quite a lot. It’s almost like, you know, a university degree
or writing a book about a person or an artist.

6:12

And a lot of these documents are quite long.

6:17

Anyway, it’ll be interesting to see
how much we get into all those things. But my particular works were purchased
as part of a wedding registry.

6:29

And it was through a small art gallery
that my mom and dad and I had worked

6:35

with called Art Interiors in Toronto. And they particularly focus on
small works of art on paper.

6:42

And they had supported my practice since
I was a teenager and going to OCAD

6:49

and also my dad and early times too. And these works had been there and were
purchases as part of a bride’s wish list

6:58

for her new life with her partner. And then artworks go off
on this mysterious journey.

7:05

And it’s so interesting to see them
pop up later in different places.

7:11

Sometimes they go to different countries. And they have amazing stories all their own.

7:21

It’s interesting to check in with them, kind
of like long lost friends or neighbours. And you hear some of the things
that they’ve survived or avoided

7:29

or how they’ve come to be where they are. And it’s really interesting and always
surprising to me when I find pieces

7:37

in places you didn’t expect them. And I find that a lot with my parents’ artworks.

7:44

And sometimes people call to tell me
that they have this piece or that piece or I’ll see something unexpected.

7:49

And it is always like running into relatives
that have been off on this big journey.

7:55

And you wondered, wow. And sometimes you hear the story of it and
there’s absolutely no putting it together,

8:01

how it came from that point A to
point B in quite a mysterious way. But I’m very pleased to be here and to
be discussing all of this with you all.

8:15

>> Thank you so much, Anong. That kind of adds to our record of these works. I’m so glad to hear about a
little bit more about the path

8:23

that they had taken in their journey here. So I’ll introduce Chaka Chikodzi next.

8:32

Chaka is a Zimbabwean Canadian
stone sculptor living, working, and raising a family in Katarokwi/Kingston.

8:40

He works with volcanic rock from Zimbabwe,
where he started sculpting as a teenager

8:46

and has a studio here in Kingston
and in Mvurwi, Zimbabwe,

8:56

where he works with a team of assistants. Working with the stone here in Canada,
where he has lived for the past 18 years,

9:03

he has become increasingly interested in the
Stone itself, in the story it tells

9:09

about geological history and in the
relationship that he has forged with it over many years living between two continents.

9:19

His recent work is inspired by the beauty
and simplicity of the natural rock formations

9:24

that are unique to Zimbabwe’s landscape. And I’d also like to mention too that we
are currently working on a documentary

9:33

on Chaka’s work, which we
hope to release in September.

9:41

So Chaka, in speaking about Munhu munhu nekuda kwe munhu/People are people because of people,

9:55

which I believe is a Shona proverb, I wonder
if you could talk a little bit about this work

10:02

in the context of your own
practice and its collection here. >> Thank you, Alicia.

10:08

Oh, it’s a privilege to be here today. I’ve been an artist all my life.

10:16

But I have existed outside of the institutions
of art, not by choice, but by circumstance.

10:32

I’ve been sculpting since I was 13.

10:39

Like, when I first came to Canada,
I once lived in a homeless shelter.

10:50

I really hate to tell these kind of, like,
sob stories, sob self-pity African stories.

10:59

But you know, it’s true that my
story is defined by struggle.

11:09

So when I look at art, it’s a —
to me, it’s a hustle mentality.

11:19

It’s about survival. So when I first came to Canada, first of all,
I come from like a, what do you call the —

11:35

my art background is the
Zimbabwe Shona sculpture.

11:41

So when I first came to Canada,
I soon realized that there was —

11:48

there was sort of like pros and
cons of being an African artist.

11:57

So on the other hand, there’s this sort
of, like, recognizability to my work

12:06

because we were a British colony
for about 90, 90 something years.

12:17

But when we became free, we
had to fight for our freedom.

12:25

The Chinese and the Russians gave
us the weapons to fight back. So in 1980, we became free.

12:36

But the independence kind of brought a
lot of, like, publicity in the world.

12:41

Because we had Prince Charles came
down to bring the Union Jack down.

12:47

And then we also had Bob Marley, who
came and sang the song “Zimbabwe.”

12:55

So like, during that time, we got
the publicity was, like, huge.

13:02

So like, we got a huge influx of tourists.

13:09

So my uncle was one of what you call,
like, the first generation stone sculptors.

13:17

Because he had gotten an opportunity. Because prior to that, because
we were just like a new colony.

13:23

So prior to that, there was no commercial art. So one of my uncles was one of
the first who was encouraged

13:34

by this British curator, Frank McEwen. So the first exhibition was
at the Rodin Museum in Paris.

13:44

So there was maybe 15, 16 Zimbabwean
artists who were featured in that exhibit.

13:52

So that exhibit was a huge success. And then, you know, like from there, it become
an industry and then with the independence

14:02

that we had with all this huge
influx of, like, tourists and stuff. So we — it was a good thing for the country.

14:12

So like, when I came here and realizing
the guys who have that sort of, like,

14:18

experience of having travelled
to Zimbabwe or would have been to Zimbabwe were familiar
with the Shona sculpture.

14:29

So I found, you know, that recognizability. And then there was also people who were
trying to buy me or devalue my work.

14:39

Because they would say, at that time, I think one Zimbabwean dollar
was equivalent to — oh, no.

14:46

One US dollar was equivalent
to a million Zimbabwe dollars. So everyone was a millionaire, pretty
much, and billionaire in Zimbabwe.

14:55

So when people viewed my work and see my
prices here in Canada, they would say that —

15:04

or they would say to me, “Hey,
your work is too expensive. I can buy the same piece in Zimbabwe for
a price equivalent to a loaf of bread.”

15:18

Like, I’ve actually had several
people say that to me. So like, the question would be, like, okay,

15:24

how many loaves of bread did
I eat to create this piece. You know, so like, when Allyson and Mark
invited me to participate to be to the Stories

15:40

To Tell exhibit and to create a piece sort of
like connecting with the Lang collection —

15:50

for those of you who are not familiar with the
Lang collection, it belong here at the Agnes.

15:57

It’s a collection of artifacts from western
central African masks and artifacts.

16:06

And most of these artifacts
don’t really have names to them.

16:13

So like, when I started — when I was
asked, I started thinking more about my —

16:20

me being an African artist in Canada and then
looking at this collection where it’s like,

16:28

you know, my viewers are also treating
me as if everything is the same.

16:34

They can get the same piece that I have
produced in Zimbabwe for a loaf of bread. And then you have this collection here
at Agnes where you have these masks

16:45

and artifacts but you have no individuality. They are sort of like interchangeable.

16:53

There’s no, like, there was, — like,
there was only one artist who was kind

17:01

of named in the whole collection. So his name was Ogunwuyi. So when I was asked to participate, so I kind
of created a piece that was sort of responding

17:17

to Ogunwuyi because he was
the only person who was named.

17:24

So my piece was called Munhu munhu nekuda kwe munhu, a
person is a person because of a person.

17:33

Or if you — like, you could say
people are people because of people.

17:38

So this was just a commentary on the,
you know, like, on the interchangeable,

17:47

you know, they think we’re all the same. Yeah, it was just a commentary.

17:53

Thank you.

18:04

>> So the next two artists — are you
okay if I give your biographies together?

18:12

>> Yes, of course. It would be far too long
if you did them separately.

18:19

>> So Deirdre Logue and Allyson Mitchell,
I’ll give a bit about each of you

18:25

and then your conjoined practice because you work
together so closely in your artistic practices.

18:32

So Deirdre has been prolific and steadfast
in her engagement with the moving image

18:38

and has subsequently produced
upward of 60 short films and videos.

18:44

Her solo work and performance for the
camera explores anxiety, the queer body,

18:49

and the limits of ability through
video installation and projection. Deirdre has contributed over 25 years to
working with artist-run organizations dedicated

19:00

to social justice media arts
presentation and distribution and is currently the development
director at Vtape in Toronto.

19:09

Allyson Mitchell uses sculpture, performance,
installation, and film to explore feminist and queer ideas in her individual
and collaborative art practice.

19:20

These articulations have resulted in a coven of lesbian feminist Sasquatch monsters
and a room-sized Vagina Dentata.

19:29

Allyson teaches in the School
of Gender, Sexuality and Women’s Studies at York University.

19:35

And Allyson and Deirdre also direct the Feminist
Art Gallery in Toronto and satellite spaces.

19:43

And since 2010, FAG has enabled exhibitions
for artists by collaborating with institutions

19:49

like SFMOMA, Tate Modern,
Whippersnapper in Toronto, Access Gallery

19:55

and Independent Archive in Singapore. Recently, they presented KillJoy’s
Kastle: a Lesbian Feminist Haunted House.

20:02

This project is an expansive and maximalist
queer nightmare of epic proportions.

20:10

Currently, Mitchell and Logue are
developing Feminist Art Residency, FAR,

20:19

on 64 acres of conservation-
protected land, not far from here.

20:26

We call them local artists now too. And the last day of the summer
institute will take place at FAR.

20:35

I’m very excited about that. So we have a selection of your
works here that you’ve done jointly

20:41

and that Allyson has done
earlier in your career. We didn’t bring up the lesbian —
the lesbian — the Lady Sasquatches.

20:51

We do have an image of them. And we have your two drawings.

21:00

And these works have come
to Agnes in different ways.

21:08

So the two drawings were
purchases that were made. And Rosie is a group — from a
group of three that were donated

21:17

by the art dealer Paul Petro. And we’re super excited and in the process of
acquiring or receiving a very generous gift

21:30

from Allyson of the Ladies Sasquatches. And do you mind just — oh, we’ll
just scroll these other works.

21:41

And then, in the last image please, Maddi. And here’s an image of them.

21:48

I hope that’s okay I’m showing
them out on — out on the FAR farm.

21:55

And I wonder if you would both just speak a bit about your representation
in the Agnes collection.

22:07

>> Thank you. It’s very wonderful to be here. And it feels absolutely freaky.

22:13

This is the first time I’ve talked in
front of people or even, like, — I teach. But I haven’t taught in front of
students for a really long time.

22:22

So I’m feeling a lot of anxiety. But I’m just going to push through it.

22:29

But there’s so much to tell
about the history of these works.

22:34

And it’s kind of difficult
to know where to begin. But I know that we have each other to
lean on if I do say something weird or —

22:43

>> I’m right here, babe. >> Okay. Great. >> I’m right here. >> So this one, this Rosie is interesting.

22:50

It’s the first piece that, like, in terms of
time, when I made it, it’s in the collection.

22:58

It’s very early. I think I made this in 1999 or 1998.

23:04

And these three pieces were donated
by my ex-art gallerist, Paul Petro.

23:12

And I’m so happy that they’re in the collection. But I feel very distanced
from the work because, well,

23:22

this piece showed in my second
ever commercial gallery exhibition

23:27

at Catherine Mulherin’s space in Toronto with
my ex-collaborator Lex Vaughn.

23:34

And I remember Paul purchasing this piece. And it was so exciting.

23:40

And it was priced at, I think,
something like $375.

23:46

But he also did barter for the price to come down for a family discount, I
guess because we’re both gay.

23:55

And I also acquiesced, even
though I would never do that now.

24:04

But — especially from a white,
gay male gallerist with money.

24:09

But at that point, I was,
like, he had a lot of power. And I didn’t have formal representation.

24:18

And I was really hoping to be
represented in his gallery. So I said yes.

24:23

And I was also very glad for it to
— I mean, at the time, three hundred and something dollars was significant as a
graduate student and needed the money too.

24:38

And so this starts the — but
this also triggers, for an artist, to have your work in a collection,
even though, I mean, I don’t —

24:47

I didn’t financially gain from a
sale to a museum or even a donation,

24:53

which would receive a tax
receipt for that donation.

25:00

Paul Petro would have benefitted
from that, financially. However, for a Canadian artist,
it’s important to have a foot

25:10

in the door in institutions like that. Because it begets — it’s like getting
your first grant from an arts council.

25:19

It begets other grants and other
funding and things like that. And it also means you’re counted as an artist.

25:28

And I was, you know, I’ve always been
fair — like, not so much recently, but insecure about my identity as an artist.

25:34

I’m not trained. I work a full-time job in a kind
of not arts based profession

25:45

as a professor in a non-art department.

25:53

And so it has huge weight to know that the
work is in the collection and especially

26:00

at an institution like Agnes
Etherington that I very much respect and love more and more every day.

26:09

So that’s, I think, enough to say
about that earlier, earlier work,

26:15

unless you think I’m not
hitting it an important point. >> No comment. I think you’ve done a great job.

26:20

>> Okay, great. And then to — so let’s talk about, then,
the drawings, which are part of an exhibition

26:29

that Deirdre and I had together,
collaboratively, here at Agnes a few years ago.

26:36

And the exhibition was called
I’m Not Myself At All.

26:41

And it was happening at the same time as
an exhibition that was curated by Alicia

26:47

and Tobi — I’m forgetting her last name. >> Bruce. >> Bruce called the Artist Herself,
which was a historical exhibition

26:55

of women’s artists, women artists. And there was one daguerreotype photograph
of a woman with a kind of dour expression.

27:02

And on the back of the photograph was
written, “She’s not herself at all.”

27:12

So we named our exhibition as a kind
of echo around self, around identity,

27:20

and around kind of like the
idea of a woman even.

27:25

And so these two drawings are pencil
drawings that we made in honour

27:32

of the two cultural queer feminist theorists
that the ideas in our exhibition orbited around.

27:41

So the one on the — your left
is José Muñoz, queer theorist.

27:47

And the one on the right is Monique Wittig, who
was a lesbian feminist theorist in the 1980s.

27:56

And their ideas were very
revolutionary and still are.

28:01

Wittig talked about how lesbian as an — or was thinking through this idea that
lesbians are outside of the category of women,

28:09

if women are defined in relation to men. So it’s almost like an idea of being
freed from that social construction.

28:18

It’s flawed and problematic. But it’s like there’s something
really interesting in there. And José Muñoz is well known for his work
around theorizing how queerness is not here yet,

28:34

but something that we strive for on a
horizon as a kind of potential utopia.

28:41

So the work in the show was
around trying to think — explain, just like I did in an awkward way to
you, what these theorists were thinking about

28:49

but using film, paper mache,
drawings, and sculpture.

28:56

And during the exhibition, Jan
Allen, the previous director,

29:02

proposed that the gallery is — the museum is
interested in purchasing these two drawings.

29:08

And we were talking about what —
you know, how do you value that. How do you price that?

29:14

So Deirdre said — >> Are you sure you want to say this out loud? >> Yes! Yes! >> It was about — I think it’s also important
to know that these were made during —

29:22

while we watched the Katy Perry documentary. >> It’s true. >> So I just wanted to point that out.

29:28

>> But yeah. So we were talking about, like,
how do you price, like, a drawing.

29:34

We’re not quite sure. And so Deirdre said, “Well, what did you pay
the last white male artist for a drawing?

29:43

Because we want twice that.” [ Applause ]

29:52

>> Which still wasn’t a lot. Okay. Just like, [crosstalk] your expectations. >> People got to know that story.

29:58

>> Okay. Because — and here’s why. Because no one tells you how to do this, right.

30:04

No one tells you how to negotiate
with a museum or a collector. >> Or an art dealer. >> Which goes back to the, I think, a
very difficult tale around Paul Petro.

30:13

But it’s also you know in your gut
that, when you approach these systems,

30:23

that there are inherent in them these
discriminations, these discrepancies,

30:31

these slippery slopes, these lacks of clarity. So you know, art school or no art school,
you often find yourself in a position

30:41

of not knowing what to say
or how to value your work. And we often, I think, also try
to diminish it, undervalue it.

30:50

It’s like just please take them. Just please take them, you know. So you know, it’s a cheeky monkey way.

30:57

But it’s a good way to say,
“Well, how does it normally work?

31:02

We would like it to work that way too.” So it’s a good illustration of using the
way the system already doesn’t work for you

31:13

to your advantage or to your, at
least, to your knowledge base. So you just say, “Okay.

31:18

well, these are the systems that
seem to work well for these people. We’d like — we’ll mimic that.

31:25

We will ask for that.” I also think it’s important to note, too, that
these drawings are not the kind of drawings

31:32

that you would, I don’t know, we call
them sort of like masterpieces, like,

31:39

it’s like things that are
part of the ephemera

31:44

and the production of something else. So they’re not meant to be works that exist, in
some ways, outside of the production of the work

31:56

that we did for our show here at the Agnes. But they are foundational in our thinking,
along with Katy Perry documentaries.

32:06

And it’s really important
to note that they are — that they’re small and in some ways, unassuming.

32:14

And they come with a kind of, I guess,
they bring a theory along with them

32:20

that we hope people will become curious about. When seeing the work, they also became —

32:27

they’re formative in a larger
video art installation piece.

32:32

So you know, in theory, these
drawings should also have the other —

32:38

some of the other key elements of the
exhibition in order to contextualize them.

32:44

So two more quick thoughts. One is is that how does an institution
collect work without collecting all of it

32:55

or at least a bunch of it or some of it. How do you contextualize these drawings
in your collection without all the rest

33:04

of the work that was made alongside it? So how do installations complicate
this question of collecting?

33:12

I think the other elements that these
drawings bring up for me is just how, in fact,

33:20

once these drawings are unmoored, how are they
affected as the theories around them change.

33:26

So the Wittig and the Muñoz theories occupy a
very particular time in queer theory history.

33:34

How do they change? How do those theories get
troubled and change over time? And what does that do to
either recontextualize the work

33:42

or make it problematic or
make it more interesting?

33:48

We don’t know. So how do you — how do you take something
out of all that history and all that context

33:54

and expect it to have it when you show it? Do you bring the artist back to speak
to it every time, to tell your stories?

34:05

Or do we — do you have to read the
Wittig book to be able to talk about it?

34:11

I would say yes. But it’s a question I would have. And lastly, I think media, the video work
that we made called Hers is Still a Dank Cave,

34:23

which is still available for
purchase, it has this in it in ways

34:30

that I think it’s lonely without. So these guys being here
on their own are just —

34:37

the video work that embodied their energies
is also like where did everybody go.

34:48

So you know, can you really parcel things out? Can you really pick and choose
how to collect an artist’s work?

34:55

Or do you just have to be all in? I would say you just got to be all in.

35:01

I also think in collaborations,
like it’s never going to happen.

35:06

But what if we broke up? Like, you know, you really —
like, life and things change.

35:12

Your relationship with Paul Petro changed. Who’s laughing? We’re not breaking up.

35:17

But you know, it’s a strange thing to come back
to the history of how something was acquired,

35:24

knowing that so much preceded
it and so much followed it. And so those would be my only
additions, however brief.

35:35

>> So I almost want to run with
your set of questions instead, Deirdre, the ones I have scripted.

35:42

So I’m going to try to weave in
one of the questions and jump ahead of the questions to take that up.

35:49

I would like nothing more to
reinstall the artist herself as well, for you to be alongside I’m Not Myself At All.

35:58

And full disclosure to Allyson, I was very
excited but also very nervous about talking

36:05

to you all, even though I love you all. And all of you have been a part of
a film that we did in association

36:15

with another historical exhibition, Finding
Authenticity, talking with Tyler Tekatch.

36:25

Although, all of you are just kind of
being in the same space with each other for the first time, having this other
conversation that feels like an extension.

36:34

And that you can find online,
too, through our website. But full disclosure, I am a historical curator.

36:42

And so often, I — it’s like
I’m the angel of death. Often, I am working with artworks in the
collection quite a ways down the road.

36:54

So I really appreciate hearing about
what is it that your works need

37:02

In their life in this collection. Because they’re going to
be in it for a long time. We don’t call them permanent for nothing.

37:09

And once that — once your works
enter a collection and in a way,

37:17

become physically separated from you, even if
there is an in-between sale or an art dealer

37:24

that is that interface, what do you hope
for your work, for its long-term care,

37:31

for its exhibition, for its
publication, for its digitization?

37:37

What would you like for them? And I don’t know who wants to go first.

37:45

Should we go back to you, Anong? Do you want to?

37:50

>> Okay. Okay. Well, it’s so interesting hearing
this because this is exactly the kind

37:58

of conversation that, you
know, you don’t really hear. I didn’t — I don’t remember
hearing this in art school.

38:04

And I went to four of them. And yeah, it’s something that really
needs to be talked about a lot.

38:13

I guess I have a couple of interesting
anecdotes that maybe kind of show some of this.

38:19

So my dad was a really well-known artist, Carl Beam. And when I was a little kid, I would go with him
to these pretty landmark exhibitions like Land,

38:29

Spirit, Power and Indigena and big
things in the ’90s and the late ’80s.

38:38

And I remember, there was
a big exhibition in Ottawa. And he was so proud to be in the shows.

38:43

I’m pretty sure it was Land, Spirit, Power. And it was at the Museum of Civilization.

38:50

I think it was an exhibit there. And he is dressed up in a suit jacket.

38:55

And we’re going in. And it’s a big deal. And as soon as we walk in the building,
he’s just stopped in his tracks.

39:02

And there’s a vitrine, like a
standing case with a piece in it.

39:09

And it’s my great aunt’s basket. And nobody knows that.

39:16

So the people who run that
institution had no idea that she was related to him,
that they were related.

39:24

And I don’t think that she knew
that that piece was there in Ottawa.

39:30

It had been collected by a collector,
like who was buying things from —

39:35

as a tourist on Manitoulin, where we lived. And then it travelled through a doctor’s
collection and was donated to the Museum

39:43

of Civilization, or back then,
I think, the Museum of Man. It’s had so many name changes.

39:48

And now it’s just the history. And but that’s what he saw
as soon as he walked in.

39:54

And he was just really struck that she had — she had beat him there to this
like big venue, this big showcase.

40:02

She was already there. And nobody knew it. And she didn’t know it.

40:07

And it just kind of — I think it
was like a sobering kind of a moment

40:13

and funny when you think about it. But also, years later, I had
an experience being a curator

40:20

and then director at Ojibwe Cultural Foundation. And I had this experience of my dad
searching for Ojibwe or Anishinaabe ceramics.

40:31

And being that we all made ceramics and dug
clay and had a ceramic history in our family,

40:38

he was always looking for it in museums. And it was never shown. And museum places would always says, “No,
Anishinaabe people don’t have ceramic history.

40:48

The Mohawks do. It’s a Haudenosaunee thing.” And it was always really kind of, you know,
there was no physical indication otherwise.

40:58

And you’d go to the Gardner
Ceramic Museum or any ceramic museum with cultural ceramic pieces
and you would not see that.

41:05

It didn’t exist anywhere. And in the ’80s, my cousin was on
an archeological dig on the island

41:14

where we live, like just a few minutes away. And he dug up a pot. And he came back, told my dad about it.

41:23

He was part of a high school
group helping archeologists. And there was no picture
or there was no discussion

41:30

to our communities about
what they had found there. It was actually just observed, collected,
numbered, marked, put in a box, and like gone.

41:40

And then there was only this memory
of what this high school age kid, my cousin, remembered he’d seen.

41:46

And my dad was trying to figure out what he saw. And he said, “Well, it looked like yours.” And then that was all we ever heard of it.

41:53

And years go by. And my father passes away. And I have a job. And I move. And I come back. And then I’m at this institution.

42:03

And one of the jobs that they get is that an archeological department
closes down due to lack of funding.

42:10

And these archeological pieces are rehomed and
repatriated back to Ojibwe Cultural Foundation,

42:17

who’s supposed to, then, repatriate them
back to the communities they came from.

42:22

So then they sit there for
years in this back room. And I inherit a long, overdue
project for FedNor or something.

42:32

It has to do with going through the actual — I started reading this book that’s the
archeological side of what my parents had seen.

42:41

And in it, there’s all these listings
of ceramic pieces that were found, like,

42:47

you know, 10 minutes from where I grew up. And they list the amount of them.

42:53

There was 123 vessels, like
a significant portion.

42:58

And I’m like over the moon. They’re supposed to be there. But they aren’t.

43:03

And this is the first time that — it was this
whole like unfolding of the accidental nature

43:11

of collections and care and the
viewpoint of who’s looking at it as far

43:16

as what is important to talk about or show. And the thing was that Indigenous Anishinaabe
ceramics weren’t even called

43:26

that because the guy who dug
them up called them Algoma ware. And then they just went into
a box as Algoma ware.

43:32

But what was that? It just happened to be the name
of what he said that that was.

43:38

It didn’t attach it to the
community or the people or the actual practising ceramic artists
right there who kind of had to work

43:47

in their whole adult lives doing something that
they felt in their bodies and that they learnt

43:53

from their families but that they were
consistently told wasn’t really authentic

43:58

to their group, which is so bizarre. And many years later, to come back to that and
find that out, it was a real cautionary tale

44:08

to me about the power and the nature of
collecting and collecting and removal.

44:17

And I think Indigenous communities and
also what you spoke to about the pieces that you’re reacting to, how they can
be collected and taken out of context

44:29

out of countries and displayed as
groupings when they are made by individuals.

44:38

And the people of that community would know
those individuals or their relationships

44:44

that can be supported or harmed very — in powerful ways through the act of
curatorial collecting, removal, and display

44:56

and deciding what’s displayed
and what’s not and who gets to explain what it is and who gets to name it.

45:04

That was, you know, it’s
really quite interesting to me. And so I’m really glad that we’re
here having this conversation.

45:17

>> Thank you. Yeah, for me, I don’t have that
many, I guess, expectations.

45:26

But I just hope that I won’t
be in the same position

45:32

as the artists who are in the Lang collection. Because they ended up with no names and
they are just, like, a grouping of, you know,

45:42

they are all the same, interchangeable. So I hope I won’t end up
in the same situation as them.

45:50

Thank you. >> And part of the question you asked was
how do you hope the institution will care

45:58

for your work in a collection. Well, and I have no doubt that pretty much any
institution would probably take better care

46:08

of my art than I have had the capacity to,
just materiality, the stuff of it, the time.

46:17

I have no doubt that the materiality
will be really well cared for.

46:23

And something — I mean, if
you can go ahead to the slide

46:28

with the big sculptural work, the Ladies Sasquatch. I mean, to have this work collected
is beyond exciting because it means —

46:42

it’s a very large installation of unwieldly
shapes that don’t fit into boxes, that are,

46:53

you know, would probably take a
million years to rot in a landfill because they’re Styrofoam and acrylic material.

47:04

But they need to be cared for
or they had to go somewhere.

47:11

We could not really sustain the stewardship
of the work any longer for the cost

47:23

of storage lockers for a material art practice. I was talking to a couple artists outside
earlier around just like how unsustainable it is

47:33

when you do have a material practice of
where that work gets stored and you depend

47:39

on the kindness of family, friends, and
relations, damp basements and barns and things

47:44

like that to take care of the work. So that piece is really important.

47:51

But also, to know that the work and the hope is
that the work is cared for in a way that allows

48:02

for accessibility to the public and
conversations that need to happen around work

48:12

that was made that came out of a particular
politic in a moment that will not,

48:17

like you were saying earlier, that won’t
mean the same thing in 25 years or 50 years

48:24

or 100 years and to become an
archive in a way of an ideology

48:30

or a way of living or a way of thinking. And so that’s an important piece to be
cared for, is providing people the context.

48:45

But also, an important piece for me and that
was reassured for me when you came to our place

48:53

to pack up and talk about these sculptural
works was that you said that I could always,

49:01

while I’m still alive, access them, that
my family could access them, that you know,

49:08

we could — they would be available. They wouldn’t be in a vault
where people wouldn’t be able

49:16

to show them or touch them ever again. Because one big part of these
giant monsters that are made

49:26

out of a tactile fabric that’s
meant to be touched,

49:31

part of what makes the work come alive is
that it’s not behind some heavy museum glass.

49:37

It’s not behind a plexiglass
whatever you call it that you put over sculptures, that it’s like touchable.

49:47

And that’s a really important part for
the politics around queer community and culture making, is that it requires the
activation of a public for it to be alive.

50:02

Or else, it doesn’t matter. >> Yeah. It’s true.

50:08

I mean, when you look at galleries and museums,
you’re like look at the size of those doors. You could really make something
big to put through those doors.

50:17

So yes, I mean, if museums and art galleries
are publicly funded and privately funded

50:26

to make art available, I think there is
a very important question as to how do,

50:32

then, collections become reanimated. And to what extent can that
recontextualize the work?

50:41

But what is the institution’s
responsibility to making sure that the artist is participating
in that recontextualization.

50:48

So yeah, I do think that there are
important questions for future museums

50:58

and future publicly funded art galleries. To what extent are you obligated to collect?

51:06

I would say that you are obligated to
collect as part of your core function.

51:12

And of course, there’s always the, you
know, the donations are so important.

51:19

But the fees are also important
because there is this notion, again, that art is just somehow made.

51:26

But it’s not. It’s not just made. It’s paid for all the time, over and over and
over again through those studio, you know,

51:35

rent checks and those storage
lockers and those materialists.

51:41

So it’s a, I think, a question moving forward. And I think we should open it up to the audience
to participate in, as many of them are artists

51:48

and curators and have been collected. However, all it takes is one.

51:57

But it’s, yeah, it’s like what do future museums
have to do with this notion of collecting

52:04

as a form of curation and care to bring it back
to the general theme and to what extent does

52:11

that care involve the artist as part of
what’s getting cared for along the way.

52:18

So is it enough to have the work? Or is there a pact there, that as long as
the artist is alive, they get to touch it.

52:27

They get to talk about it. And they get to benefit from its exhibition. So the exhibition right is another piece.

52:33

You know, when you put this on display,
institutions are obligated to — this is the part of my CV
that gets a little boring.

52:40

People are like, “Oh, no. She was on the CARFAC board. I forgot. We should have not let
her, you know, not invited her.”

52:46

But you know, these institutions are obligated to pay an exhibition rate
to the artist every time.

52:53

And in that is another kind of economy
for the artist that’s important. But it’s also, it can deter collection.

53:04

And it can discourage exhibition. So we need to think about how the artist and the
institution and the works themselves can work

53:15

in collaboration to make visibility possible. Yeah. >> One more piece on what you just
said, which is that, you know,

53:23

that exhibition right is something that was hard
won by artists, by CARFAC fighting for something

53:30

that the National Gallery fought against
and took CARFAC to Supreme Court of Canada

53:36

to fight having artists be
paid the right to exhibition. >> Yes. CARFAC National took
the National Gallery to court.

53:44

It was many years, almost nine years. It cost a fortune. CARFAC almost went bankrupt.

53:50

Anybody from CARFAC in the audience? Okay. There’s some — thank
you for your service.

53:55

But the National Gallery felt that they
were the best entity in the narrative

54:03

around collecting an artist’s work to
choose or exhibiting an artist’s work to choose what they would pay that artist.

54:10

And CARFAC’s argument was
that CARFAC had a fee schedule and the National Gallery
was obligated to pay it.

54:15

When they lost, which they
did, I was in the room. It was fantastic.

54:22

The Supreme Court took about
30 seconds to decide. And now CARFAC basically gets to choose
what the National Gallery will pay,

54:31

instead of them just picking up
the old fee schedule easy way. But yes, I guess, that’s an important part,

54:37

that these are not closed door
conversations between curators and artists.

54:44

These are public debates. These are questions for audience, as
well as artist, as well as curator,

54:50

as well as museum director,
benefactor, patron, technician,

54:56

and everyone involved in making this machine go. And how the works are — how works
are acquired is a collaboration

55:08

between these institutions and these people. And I think the more we treat it like a
relationship of care, one of mutual benefit,

55:17

the richer the context for
the work and the institution.

55:26

>> On the subject of display — oh, no. I’ll mention to you that Kim
Ondaatje, who was one of the early —

55:32

one of the founders, the only woman founder
of CARFAC, lives not too far from here, won a Governor General’s Award, along with
Tony Urquhart, who’s no longer with us.

55:43

But we’ve got that good feel,
that good vibe happening here. And but on the topic display, I
wondered, Chaka, I would love to pull this

55:53

out of you just a little bit more. Because you supplied us with — we’ve had
this work in the collection since 2016.

56:03

And you recently supplied us with a
display case or plinth for this work.

56:11

And I wonder if that goes along with
the degree to which an artist desires

56:20

and should inform the display of
their work, the framing of it. And so I wanted to ask a little bit more
about your intention in supplying that plinth.

56:34

>> Oh, right. Yeah. Like, yeah, the stand, yeah, when
it comes to sculpture, it’s like, yeah,

56:47

it’s always about the aesthetics
of you know, displaying it.

56:54

Or I guess, you could call
it the politics of display. But so I created this stainless steel base.

57:05

At first, I kind of thought it was too shiny
because it’s stainless steel and it’s kind

57:10

of got this made kind of look to it. But then, when I put the sculpture
on, it wasn’t actually taking away.

57:18

It was actually elevating the
sculpture and bringing out all the,

57:25

I guess, beauty from the sculpture. So yeah, I like the fact that, you know,
this is like a continuation, like you said.

57:37

The piece has been here since 2016.

57:42

It was kind of a surprise for me. I was — it was actually Canada Day when
I was in the park not too far from here,

57:54

at City Park doing the Artfest craft show.

58:02

So I got a call about, you know,
inquiring about the piece and the price.

58:08

So like you said, like, you don’t know how
to kind of like come up with the price.

58:14

And especially if you haven’t sold
any piece, too, like an institution. And a big art institution like Agnes, it’s
kind of like, you know, experience only comes

58:27

from actually being able to do it. So in the park, they ask me,
“Oh, how much is that piece?”

58:36

I was like — so with most artists, I
think it depends on how broke you are

58:42

or if you have any money that’s
saved up in the bank account. So like, it was what it was.

58:49

It was a very good experience. I felt very honoured that my piece was going
to come and be part of a public institution.

59:00

Whereas like, you know, my whole — throughout
my whole career, I think I had reached a point

59:06

where I sort of, like, gave up to the point
where I was like, “Well, you know what?

59:11

I don’t think that’s going to
be, like, the root to my success. I think I can still get there with other means.”

59:18

Because you know, I’m from the streets
in, like, Zimbabwe and South Africa.

59:25

So I knew that, you know, whether I’m
in the art institution or I’m not,

59:30

I’m still going to be able to meet the people. Because you know, we had that whole
experience of when we became independent

59:41

and the tourists coming to Zimbabwe. We realized that we had, I guess, in
English, you could call it cultural capital.

59:56

So yeah, it’s something that
we have at our disposal.

1:00:01

So either way, you know, I thought, you
know, I had given up or I had given up on

1:00:09

that feeling of being an outsider. So I mean, I’m here now.

1:00:15

I’m very, you know, I feel honoured
that my piece is part of the Agnes.

1:00:23

And you know, I feel like, since I came here
to Kingston, I’ve been here 10 years now.

1:00:31

And the first exhibit that I was
involved in here was that Stories to Tell.

1:00:37

And then, soon after, I got invited by
Sunny for his curated show called Dig.

1:00:47

So since then, that’s been since 2016. And then now, 2022, I’m kind of
pleased with the change, you know.

1:00:58

I know there’s more change, you know. I was involved in that Lang collection. And then I saw the exhibit that was
here not too long ago, Opened Mouths.

1:01:11

So I feel like, you know, that is kind of
given me a sense of, like, you know, belonging,

1:01:19

a sense of home and you know,
watching all these changes and stuff. And you know, it’s a good feeling to see
that or to think that my work has been part

1:01:30

of that sort of like Agnes transformation. You know, and I feel that my
work is part of that or connected

1:01:38

to that change over the last six years.

1:01:43

Thank you.

1:01:51

>> Anong, I wonder if we — if you would mind
sort of extending that a little bit to talk

1:01:56

about what you think the role a
collecting institution has for your work.

1:02:01

And I know you are very much involved,
also, since you mentioned your father

1:02:07

and your father’s estate and you had talked
about CCPERB early on in this discussion.

1:02:16

So — and have been an executive director
yourself of cultural institution.

1:02:24

>> Okay. Thank you. I think it’s a really —
it’s a really great question.

1:02:30

And it goes so deeply to
the role of art in society.

1:02:35

And that’s such a personal question. For me, I view that as that art has to
do with the expression of the culture

1:02:46

and the society that we’re living in. So the responsibility, I think, of an
institution is to observe and react to that

1:02:55

as closely as they can to help reflect back
to society, who they are, the different parts.

1:03:04

Because it’s so important for different groups
to be able to see themselves there and for youth

1:03:11

to see themselves there and not
just to see one segment of society and their values reflected back at everyone,

1:03:19

but for us to all gain a deeper
understanding of each other. And obviously, that’s really
hard to do in an underfunded way.

1:03:29

And I think that, in case any larger
governmental institutions listen to this,

1:03:35

I think that the Canadian art
institutions are really underfunded

1:03:41

as far as their collections and care. And I think that that leads
to a dependence on donations.

1:03:49

The acquisitions are not really
considered very highly on operating budgets

1:03:55

as necessities for art institutions. It’s more about other — other priorities,
depending on who is in government

1:04:03

and which province, etc., etc. But I think that,
if we were to look at the over larger scheme

1:04:10

in Canada, which is unique to Canada. I don’t think it’s not like this
in so much in other countries.

1:04:16

But in Canada, where we depend on donations and then we establish a broader governing group
called CCPERB and have them and the people —

1:04:28

the extra work that that creates for people
at collecting institutions to dedicate

1:04:36

to writing these novelesque reports on the
work that they want to accept as donations

1:04:43

and then the government giving a tax
receipt to the donor, who, you know,

1:04:48

may or may not have paid, you know, however
that goes, which oftentimes is quite minimal

1:04:55

to the artist, if all of that was,
instead, given to art institutions directly

1:05:03

and then maybe we could kind
of break a cycle of donations

1:05:10

and really recreate a more equitable
relationship between art institutions

1:05:16

who represent the Canadian
public and the artists who represent Canadian psyche in society.

1:05:24

That would be really healthy. I would really like to see
that in some form or another.

1:05:30

I’ve kind of been a different — I
was a member of OAAG briefly. And I’ve heard from a lot of different
art institutions in Ontario and beyond

1:05:38

about their woes and their budgets
and balances and everything.

1:05:44

And I think that, in general, most
institutions with a collecting mandate want to be actively pursuing their own
curatorial collections and not having

1:05:55

to work — donations can be challenging.

1:06:00

I think there is probably a lot of
horror stories from anybody who has been

1:06:06

in arts long enough to have
interacted with art dealers.

1:06:11

And not that they’re the bad guys. I have an art dealer I’m
really happy to be with now.

1:06:18

But I remember a lot, coming
and going, and seeing my dad and the things that he had to work with.

1:06:24

And back in the ’90s, he produced quite a lot of
beautiful artwork that was acquired specifically

1:06:31

for the purpose of giving as a donation. And a lot of people refer to that as — it was
something that was exploited in the late ’90s —

1:06:42

as a tax donation scheme or shelter. And a lot of people who weren’t actually
artists were propped up by middlemen

1:06:51

who pushed their artwork into
collecting institutions in Canada.

1:06:57

So it became this way for art institutions
and CCPERB to kind of cast a bit of a shadow

1:07:06

on anybody whose work was donated. And this really involved a lot of unknown people

1:07:12

who didn’t have artistic
background and Indigenous artists. And I think that, when you are an
artist who’s working from your —

1:07:21

to support yourself and your family, like my
dad was, like a lot of art Canadian artists,

1:07:29

really struggle to support themselves. And that can put people, gallerists
or donors in a very powerful position.

1:07:41

And I don’t feel that it’s — it can
be really, really unfair in the end.

1:07:49

In the end, the artwork exists and continues. And it isn’t the donor or other people who
are celebrated along the way, you know.

1:07:59

But for all the artists who are living a hard
life out there, it would be really great,

1:08:05

as Canadians, for us to trust our
cultural institutions a bit more

1:08:11

and to trust their education and
judgement and curatorial direction that —

1:08:17

to ask for them to be funded better so that
they can make choices and choose artworks and support actually purchasing
from artists and their agents,

1:08:26

rather than a circuitous route through donors.

1:08:39

>> I thank you, Anong. And I’m also mindful of time.

1:08:44

And so maybe we will open it up. I know that Deirdre has been
wanting to for a while now.

1:08:51

>> Open it. Open it. Open it. >> To ask if there are any questions or any
points that all of you would like to bring up.

1:09:02

And I will run towards you with this
chorded microphone so you can talk into it.

1:09:16

Great. Heather.

1:09:21

>> Hi, everyone. I’m an archivist. This has been like, I could talk
CCPERB, CARFAC, everything for days.

1:09:29

This has been very exciting little roundtable. I didn’t know with your involvement with CARFAC
and with some of the things that have come

1:09:38

up around the resale, the artist resale
right that is currently sort of ongoing,

1:09:43

if you wanted to speak to that a little bit. Is it something that people should be
sort of supporting and that sort of thing?

1:09:56

>> The resale right is a really
great thing that you raise.

1:10:02

And I think, again, it illustrates
the complexity of acquisition.

1:10:09

So institutions, the resale right
doesn’t happen in the same way, even though they can often be part of
a resale issue or a resale exchange.

1:10:20

But the resale right is —
we don’t have it here. But it exists in other parts of the world.

1:10:26

So if Allyson bought one of my
works and she sold it to Pamela,

1:10:35

I would get a cut of the resale value
as the artist who produced the work.

1:10:41

Because over time, as we know how cultural
capital works, it has its pros and cons. It has those who benefit
from it and those who don’t.

1:10:49

But when works are acquired, I mean, I’m sure
it happened to your father’s work many times,

1:10:55

where it gained cultural capital and value. But when the collector sells that work to
another collector or it goes back to auction,

1:11:05

the artist is cut out of any profit. So the resale right lobby has been
struggling for years, decades in Canada.

1:11:15

They have it in other places. But the fact is is collectors
don’t like to return the benefit

1:11:23

of their collecting capital to the artist. And that, if they do, then well it’s one of those
things it’s like, well, if I gave it to you,

1:11:32

then everybody is going to want it. But the truth is these works were
made by the individual artist. And it is their cultural capital, initially,
that made them valuable to the collector.

1:11:42

So it’s one of the great things about the Canadian cultural
landscape is we have public funders.

1:11:49

But we do not have sufficient patronage at all. And we fail to manifest the resale right
here, as well as other rights and freedoms

1:11:59

of artists in Canada that are long overdue.

1:12:04

I’m not very good at explaining things
in more complicated terms than that.

1:12:10

But I know if you wanted
to contact CARFAC National, they could probably explain it with math.

1:12:16

But thanks for bringing it up.

1:12:24

>> Hi Deirdre. So I worked for CARFAC National
at the same time —

1:12:30

>> Hi. I hope I didn’t say anything wrong. >> Well, no but — >> But if I did, correct me.

1:12:36

>> I wanted to share some happy
news that was recently in the news. >> How recent? >> Very recent.

1:12:41

I’m just looking at the article right now. >> Just say it was from today. Okay. Just say it was from today.

1:12:46

Okay. >> No, no. August 6, but there are some happy developments
happening with the Canadian copyright law —

1:12:53

>> Okay. >> — around artist resale rights. >> Let’s hear it. >> So I can share the article with you.

1:13:00

And I’m surprised it didn’t make more news. But under reforms of copyright law being drafted

1:13:07

by Innovation Minister Francois-Philippe
Champagne and Heritage Minister Pablo Rodriguez,

1:13:12

artists would get a resale right giving
them a royalty during the term of copyright.

1:13:18

So it’s not yet law. But there’s some happy developments happening.

1:13:23

And hopefully they come into effect very soon. So I just wanted to share that. [ Applause ]

1:13:33

>> Thanks. That’s great. Good work.

1:13:47

>> Actually, yeah, actually, I just
had a quick two cents about the CARFAC. And that, interestingly, there’s a part
related to CARFAC, which I don’t really —

1:13:57

I belong to what was CRC,
Canadian Copyright Collective.

1:14:02

And I think that that’s changed names too. Although I still deal with amazing people.

1:14:08

And it’s been ongoing. But there’s a really, really great thing to
support if you are an artist or if you work

1:14:16

with artists is Canadian Copyright Collective. Because I was able to sign over my whole family,

1:14:23

all of our copyrights now
have belonged to CRC. And it’s really great to have
that third party in between.

1:14:31

Because oftentimes you can discuss
reproductions and different groups

1:14:37

or people will try to pressure
you to donate those. And it’s really handy to be able to
say, “No, I don’t manage my copyright.

1:14:47

I don’t own — I have another
group that does that.” And they do it so excellently and
professionally and it’s amazing

1:14:56

to have a group like that in Canada. Yeah.

1:15:04

>> I really — I just gave up. I pass it on. Is there anybody else who has any questions.

1:15:21

[ Inaudible Speaker ]

1:15:27

>> I have a question. Hello. It’s — the question is a
little bit more around the collection.

1:15:33

The question is around the collection. The — like I was just — because I was able to
look at some of the items in the collection and some

1:15:44

of the finding aids were shared with me. And there’s lots of baskets that
— and so there’s a very vague —

1:15:51

there’s vague provenance for
like a lot of the times, which you know, and that’s kind of what you were
talking about in terms of the masks

1:15:58

and things, that there’s not that. And I was thinking about the baskets and
your anecdote around basket at the Museum

1:16:06

of Civilization, not having its, you know,
the maker’s name and things like that.

1:16:12

And I now that’s a process because
those big collections get donated. I don’t even know the history of like how come
you have — like the Agnes has a lot of baskets.

1:16:22

But it’s interesting just like just
seeing the, like, looking at it

1:16:28

and seeing Anishinaabe question
mark, Anishinaabe question mark, Anishinaabe question mark, like, as
the maker or the origin or the nation

1:16:37

of its origin, I suppose, those items. And I know that, probably, it’s a process that
maybe, you know, the museum is going through.

1:16:45

But I guess I’m thinking about just approaches or
ways of changing the question marks or maybe

1:16:55

like all that ceramic — all those ceramics
in so many museums, yeah, have been called —

1:17:02

have been, you know, maybe
designated as not Anishinaabe.

1:17:08

And but maybe there’s — maybe they were,
right, like the taxonomy or the ways

1:17:15

of categorizing and things like that. So anyway, I just thought maybe
would you be able to speak to that? Is that a process that Agnes is going through?

1:17:22

And I figure it probably is. And I’ll say one more thing. Something that was really inspiring
to me was a couple summers ago,

1:17:31

well, it was before the pandemic. But it was in Parry Sound,
there’s a small museum.

1:17:39

And again, it’s probably
called the Parry Sound Museum. And I went — there was a Potawatomi gathering at Wasauksing,
the reserve there, the reserve right near there.

1:17:47

And Maria Hupfield did a show where she got — took
all the baskets that were in their collection.

1:17:54

And then a bunch of baskets, I think, I might
be — this is how I understand it anyway. So if I’m wrong, whatever.

1:18:00

But this is my impression of what happened. And she displayed them throughout the museum. So the museum had like little like
diorama type things, spots, you know,

1:18:09

like this was the country kitchen. And this was this or that. And so they were just covered in baskets
and also lots of baskets from the community.

1:18:17

Because lots of basket makers in Wasauksing. Anyway, I just thought it was, like, this
really, really kind of intimate and special kind

1:18:28

of visiting, in a way, that she encouraged by
bringing all these baskets together and anyway.

1:18:34

There’s my basket story. I just wanted to, like, ask
that question and offer that. So thanks.

1:18:48

>> Thank you for that question, Lisa. And I will try to speak to it. And I also open it up to my colleagues
to speak to that responsibility

1:19:02

and care that we hold here at Agnes. And I know that is a conversation that
will continue through the summer institute.

1:19:12

And it connects to those baskets
that you were visiting here

1:19:20

and the Lang Collection to which Chaka spoke. To speak to those baskets, a lot of
— most of the cultural belongings,

1:19:34

the Indigenous cultural belongings that
reside here that may be also considered

1:19:42

to be a living ancestors, were brought
here before Agnes was founded in 1957.

1:19:51

I don’t say this to alleviate
our responsibility to them. They came to Queen’s as part
of that university enterprise

1:20:01

of collecting: must represent
all cultures in this way.

1:20:07

And they became dislocated
from their communities of origin,

1:20:14

from their makers who would have been
known as Anong said and brought here.

1:20:23

When Agnes was founded in 1957, a
lot of these ancestors were moved

1:20:31

to this location in storage here.

1:20:36

Recently and in working with fantastic
colleagues that I do work with here,

1:20:44

I’m like the longest — I’ve
been here for the longest now. It’s hard to believe, as a curator. And I work with many wonderful
curators and director.

1:20:53

And we, I can say, do not consider
them to be part of the collection,

1:21:02

but take to heart our responsibility to care
for them and to find those reconnections

1:21:11

with communities of origin so that
we can change those question marks

1:21:21

and even change those records to
be different kinds of records.

1:21:30

I can’t really say what they would be. But that to move them away from traditional
museological practice and to think of other ways

1:21:42

of documentation, but also to reach
agreements with those communities of origin.

1:21:54

A lot of them become so disassociated that we don’t know the provenance
to have an agreement of care.

1:22:05

Should they continue to stay
here or be rematriated. I don’t know if anybody else
would like to speak to that.

1:22:17

But that —

1:22:28

Lisa’s installation, Lisa Myers and Laura
Pitkanen have an installation in the house.

1:22:36

I won’t go off on a tangent here. But and there is a basket. There is a place for a basket to be held.

1:22:47

Oh, there’s a basket there now. Oh, maybe I should go up there. [ Laughter ]

1:22:54

Lisa, do you want to speak to that
inclusion of the basket in your installation?

1:23:00

Maybe not now. Okay. >> I think this is really interesting because like
you’re even trying to find language for it.

1:23:08

But you don’t have the word that
fits the action or the intention.

1:23:16

And so I mean, it’s part of a bigger
question too around, like, is it —

1:23:21

is collecting inherently and always
going to be a colonial practice.

1:23:27

Is it possible to collect in a way that is not?

1:23:33

And when Deirdre and I were running
the Feminist Art Gallery in Toronto, we tried to think through a way of starting a
feminist art collection that was decentralized,

1:23:49

that was anti-capitalism, and that
would be a decolonizing gesture.

1:23:58

And we couldn’t figure it out. With even with a brain trust of many people
trying to think around — think through it.

1:24:07

And we kind of gave up after a certain point. We came up with all kinds of schemes and
talked about having, like, a collection spree

1:24:18

where people held their collections. And this would be like ephemeral,
feminist, queer art that people could visit

1:24:26

in each other’s homes as a way
of also trying to like break down a binary between private and public.

1:24:32

Like we were trying to really think
through some radical ways of doing that. But in the end, we gave up.

1:24:39

>> I haven’t given up. >> I do not want to do it. >> I could do it. >> Go for it. [ Laughter ]

1:24:50

>> Is augmented reality the solution?

1:24:57

>> Augmented reality, what was
the — does it mean something? Solutions.

1:25:04

Okay. You bring up a good point. And there’s, I guess, the question is how
do we, especially with moving image culture,

1:25:14

generally speaking in the Canadian cultural
landscape, there’s lots of distributors. There’s nine, in fact, in Canada that
are all funded by the Canada Council

1:25:23

that all have large collections of moving image. And educational institutions
also collect moving image.

1:25:29

So if you’re taking a film studies master’s
degree at York, you know, there’s a —

1:25:35

or if you’re here at Queen’s, there’s a,
you know, there’s a collection of Canadian and Indigenous film and video
probably here somewhere.

1:25:44

And so as an example, when that
technology, say, it used to be films and then it was 3/4 inch video and then
it became a DVD and then, you know.

1:25:55

Now we’ve got virtual reality. We have augmented reality. How do institutions not only collect things that
are available in multiple iterations, right,

1:26:09

like a five-year streaming license but you
want hundreds of universities to have them.

1:26:15

Don’t you? But you know, do museums — why do museums and
galleries not participate in that kind of —

1:26:23

in the licensing of works, which I think
would actually broaden the footprint of your collection substantially
without the pain of having to store it.

1:26:33

But also, as those technologies advance,
how do we continue to advance our thinking

1:26:39

about how something is collected or how museums
are responsible for their public engagement.

1:26:45

Because they come with all these technologies. And when you say augmented reality,
I’m like, “I don’t know what that is.”

1:26:50

But I do know that it’s one of those things,
when artists are out on the avant garde edge

1:26:56

of something, people are like, “We can’t collect that because we don’t really
have that in-house expertise.”

1:27:01

So you know, perhaps it’s really about
the collaboration between the artist and the institution and them not losing
that connect over the advancement

1:27:10

of these technologies, forms, theories,
philosophies, or cultural practices.

1:27:17

Because I think you’ll find that most
institutions are not quite ready. They’re still tooling up from 10 years ago or 15
years ago with video art installations, right.

1:27:29

Like, SD cards or you know, all these
things come and go really quickly and you don’t have the technologies anymore.

1:27:36

So augmented reality is proving to be
a challenge, I would think for museums. >> Less than what you think.

1:27:43

>> Pardon? >> Less than what you think. >> Less than what you think. Have they collected your work
yet in augmented reality?

1:27:50

>> Well, there is one example,
you know, that the, you know, we put the system collective in Vienna.

1:27:56

They created a platform called
artificial museum. >> Yes. >> And it’s actually already here in Kingston.

1:28:04

You don’t see it. It’s there. It’s in a map. You can actually access it.

1:28:09

And it’s work by artists. The artists have been paid.

1:28:14

So it is a layer. It’s a layer that is part of a cultural
fabric that is now kind of in a realm.

1:28:30

>> Chaka, I saw you pick up your microphone. And I wondered if I — if you can
close us off with your comment.

1:28:37

>> I was just going to add one like,
I guess, the role of a collecting art

1:28:47

or collecting institution, going back
to what you were saying, like you know,

1:28:54

the institution does — I understand that
sometimes the institution doesn’t have control

1:29:01

of what work is acquired into the institution
because it’s coming from donations, right.

1:29:10

And then maybe the institution has some
money to also decide which, I guess,

1:29:20

artwork to be acquired that
represents the public interest.

1:29:26

And you know, like looking
at the Agnes as an example.

1:29:37

I see that there’s been — he
who decides or who decides what

1:29:45

that public value is has
changed and is changing.

1:29:55

So it’s a good system that already exists.

1:30:01

I think it’s all about how you use that
institution to actually acquire the works,

1:30:10

you know, the fact that who decides. That public value has changed.

1:30:18

So it’s all about — it’s all up to the
collecting institution to, you know,

1:30:27

change the narrative and maybe find
that value or that public value or —

1:30:37

and you know, kind of like, you know, push
it through and you know, I think, you know,

1:30:44

my whole point is already
existing structure works very well.

1:30:50

It’s just a matter of like how it’s
implemented and who is in charge.

1:30:55

You know, and that has been changing
and it will continue to change. And I think it’s a really good system.

1:31:02

That’s all I wanted to say for it. Thank you. >> Thank you.

1:31:07

Thank all of you for — I feel like we just — it’s just the tip of the
iceberg that we touched on here.

1:31:14

And I wish we could stay here
forever and talk about this. But I know Anong has a workshop that
she’s going to be leading in half an hour.

1:31:23

And so please — I think it’s full. So I hope that you’ve been able to sign up.

1:31:29

And we’re going to have a brief break and
there will be the workshop and then also,

1:31:38

Tian Zhang will be leading the first
iteration of her Manifesto for Radical Care

1:31:43

and we’ll maybe just meet in
the atrium and follow you, Tian.

1:31:53

But first of all, please join
me in thanking everyone up here.

1:31:58

[ Applause ]

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