0:00

This is Work In Progress. An Art Gallery of Greater Victoria Podcast Series.

0:05

My name is Regan Shrumm
and I’m the curator of Listener In Residence.

0:11

Work in Progress is a new podcast series
that offers some insight from behind the scenes

0:16

of the curatorial and educational projects and collaborations
that could be seen more as open ended or progress based.

0:26

These projects highlight some of the experimental
and exploratory work that is taking shape both inside

0:32

and outside of the Art Gallery of Greater Victoria’s
physical gallery spaces.

0:38

The series is recorded and produced on the traditional
and unceded lands of the lək̓ʷəŋən speaking peoples

0:45

and is generously supported by a Canada Council
for the Arts Digital Now Grant.

0:53

In this episode, we are joined by two participants, Juliet and Joyce, from the adjectives
Listener In Residents series.

1:02

This program was an intergenerational mentorship and skill
sharing program

1:07

connecting LGBTQ2+ youth with LGBTQ2+
seniors throughout British Columbia.

1:17

The program was created in order to help ease
isolation and encourage intergenerational relationships.

1:25

Juliet, Joyce, thank you so much for joining me. Perhaps you would like to start us off
by introducing yourselves.

1:33

My name is Juliet. I use she/they pronouns, I am 22 years old
and I identify as lesbian and also as non-binary.

1:45

I’m a white settler here on lək̓ʷəŋən territory. I am originally from Anishinaabe, a Dish With One Spoon
treaty territory, and I’ve been here for five years now.

1:57

I’m a student studying gender studies and environmental studies
in my final term at UVic.

2:03

I’m also a musician and a child care provider. And I also like to get involved in some community organizing
when I can.

2:12

I’m currently doing work with community food support and yeah,

2:18

I’m curious and passionate
about many things that I was excited to bring to this program,

2:24

including music, spirituality, community,

2:29

intersectionality, food, food justice and the many ways that I think all of those themes can connect
with queer community and with each other in wonderful ways.

2:43

My name is Joyce. I’m a 70 year old cisgendered female, Caucasian.

2:49

I go by she and her. I identify as a lesbian, and COVID
gave me the gift of retirement.

2:58

So I don’t have any paid work these days, but I spent a long
time as a facilitator, project manager, change consultant,

3:09

mostly self-employed. And right now I’m doing volunteer work

3:16

as the content developer in an LGBTQ2SI+

3:23

generational allies project that is interviews with

3:29

seniors between 55 and 85 who…

3:36

to share about their experience
really of harassment and discrimination

3:42

and what kinds of experiences taught them resilience and how that helps as they age.

3:51

Everything will be posted on the On My Planet website
and available for download, or free to view.

4:00

Well, thank you both. And you’re both, of course, a part of the Listener
In Residence program at the Art Gallery of Greater Victoria

4:10

and you were paired together. And yeah, I’m hoping you can discuss

4:18

your experience of the program.

4:23

Because of the project that I was doing. I forget how I became aware of the art gallery project.

4:29

But one of the things that had arisen in the

4:34

research we were doing
was this desire on the part of seniors to actually

4:41

have more intergenerational relationships with queer youth. And that I realized that I myself felt exactly the same way.

4:50

So I signed up for the program. Yeah. So when I was paired with Juliet, I, you know,

4:59

it was kind of, I put out my motives right off the top,
that really my motivation for

5:09

signing up for the program was really to make a new friend

5:14

you know, the learning and sharing
that we did was kind of a byproduct.

5:20

And one of the big benefits is that we live in the same area. So it was very easy
for us to get together in person outdoors during the pandemic.

5:32

And that really helped. So, And the

5:37

guidelines that the art gallery provided
about weekly contact and suggested some things, and

5:47

my background is in meditation and movement as my kind of

5:55

non-work practice. And so those were the kinds of things that I had to offer

6:06

because I like learning and doing new things. I don’t mind taking risks.
I don’t really see myself as an artist.

6:12

So that was really, you know, kind of well, let’s just see how it goes.

6:19

And for me, Juliet is a very easy person to talk to. And, you know, we found some common ground fairly quickly.

6:29

And I’ve certainly, I think more than anything else,
just enjoyed getting to know her and

6:36

and being willing and able to spend as much time together
as we can carve out in mutually busy lives.

6:44

So I’ll stop there. Yeah, I mean, I would echo a lot of the things that Joyce just said.

6:54

Actually, the first thing that came to mind with
this question was,

7:00

the relationship building versus
the creative aspect of the project.

7:06

And I definitely went in to Listeners In Residence thinking that I would be mostly learning new skills
and that that would be the focus.

7:15

And instead, something I think just realizing the ease
with which Joyce and I

7:22

were able to connect and form
a quite close relationship, quite quickly,

7:29

it became much more apparent to me that I was putting down roots

7:35

in community in a new way, rather
than simply learning a new practical skill or creative skill

7:44

And I think that that kind of reflected in the ways
that the two of us chose to explore our creative skills

7:52

because we had lots of different interests. And instead of focusing on one or two things

8:01

we did, I mean, we painted we did a

8:07

contemplative movement, we did some music, we did baking, we did some

8:17

like walks around in nature together, like just kind of a breadth of experiences
that we could share together.

8:26

And I think that kind of, for me at least speaks to the

8:34

yeah, the ways in which it was really focused for us on
just becoming friends and, and being,

8:41

and being creative in a way that lets us do that in a free way.

8:49

And you kind of touched on the trick I did for the project in which

8:56

you know, I know, Joyce,
you said that you don’t consider yourself an artist.

9:02

I come from the thought that everyone is an artist and that,
like life itself is just a practice, an artistic practice.

9:13

But a lot of people feel uncomfortable with that thought of like them being an artist,
putting that label on themselves. So

9:23

you know, the actual art practice part of the project to me
was like that relationship

9:29

the friendships that grew between each pair and the the skill sharing, which was another aspect
that people would share skills with each other

9:41

and learn from each other, that was kind of a way
to bring people into the process

9:46

where they felt a little bit more comfortable like,
Oh yeah, I know how to cook, and I could share that.

9:52

But really that was just a ploy to get people to connect.

9:59

And why do you think it… Why is it important in your life
to connect and create relationships,

10:12

particularly, I think in inter-generational? And how do you think that could also help the wider community?

10:23

It’s big questions. Well, I think

10:29

like in my life, first of all, I’m an introvert,
and so COVID hasn’t been that harsh for me in a lot of ways.

10:38

You could have fooled me Joyce. [Laughter]

10:43

And so I prefer,
you know, to get to know fewer people more deeply

10:49

and while I have

10:54

lots of friends here, I’ve only lived here about 12 years,

11:01

I don’t have any family here. And so in some ways

11:09

kind of widening the breadth of my relationships
to include more generations

11:16

has helped me widen my perspective right to be able to see the world from the view of someone
who has completely different experience.

11:27

Like, you know, one of the things that we talked about
was about queer history and our coming out experiences

11:33

and things like that. And so, you know, sitting from where I am, it’s
kind of like, yahoo, it wasn’t so hard, right?

11:43

But also, the world has changed enormously
in the time that I’ve been on the planet.

11:50

And it’s very good for me to, I mean, I do try to expose myself

11:56

to alternative views
not that I agree with everything by a long shot, but

12:03

just to be able to like for me, learn about what Juliet’s studying that didn’t even exist as a field
when I came through university.

12:13

Right. Like, you know, there are kind of occupations and professions
that I have just actually expanded

12:20

the opportunities in ways
that weren’t even hardly conceived of, even in my own field.

12:27

It was not really a field when I first started it. Right. It became a field over the years that I worked in it.

12:37

And so that’s one thing, but I think the

12:44

the feeling of community like for me, I operate
in a number of communities, probably everyone does,

12:51

but, you know, there’s kind of the fact
that we’re kind of neighbors. So that’s like a geographic community.
So we share a neighborhood,

13:00

you know, we share the gender expression and

13:06

and at the same time, like, you know, I spent
lots of years in university, but it’s a very long time ago.

13:12

And you know, I’m a dabbler when it comes to learning. So I like to dabble in new things.

13:19

But there’s very few things
that I actually pursue in any depth at this point.

13:25

You know, I introduced Juliet to those things

13:30

and you know, I think the thing that is the most, dare
I use the word delicious about developing a friendship,

13:41

is that discovery process,
that discovery of what connects us

13:49

and what has taught us differently
and you know, we’re just now at the place where

13:56

we’re starting to talk about things
that are more personal, more intimate to our lives. And

14:05

like that, you know, having those kinds of relationships
is what helps community as a whole, because the more we have

14:13

that kind of inter-congruence
and that outer kind of sense of being seen

14:19

and heard with each other,
I think that benefits the community hugely.

14:24

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think that the first thing
that comes to mind about relationship building is just how

14:34

important it is to build strong bonds

14:40

to me. And I think to like the broader queer community.

14:48

I think that as LGBTQ people,

14:54

we are inherently craving connection
and expansive and moving through the world in

15:04

ways that kind of,
yeah, create, crave, that intimacy and connection.

15:12

And so connecting just on the basis of that is already,
I think, connecting on a deeper level.

15:21

And I would also just say,
I think that politically I feel like I’ve gone through a shift

15:30

recently in really like wondering about my impact on my community
and the world and like what that can look like.

15:41

Like, I think that as young people,
or at least as a young person, like I was taught

15:49

to make individual choices that can have an impact on the world
or like, you know, do something small

15:56

that will have… that will change the whole world
and that it’ll all be wonderful.

16:02

When we change the world for the better. And I’ve definitely unpacked
that and changed my perspective on that.

16:11

But I haven’t changed my understanding and value
that like what I do matters.

16:18

But I think now that what I do matters for very different
reasons than what I previously thought, if that makes sense.

16:26

And so I think relationships is actually a huge part of that
because, you know, I’m moving towards this idea that, like,

16:35

I can make decisions that are impactful and they are impactful because they make me feel alive and held in place
and like I’m part of a special community.

16:45

And so suddenly creating strong connections
take a really forefront role in my life,

16:52

when it’s framed like that, and like when what I do matters is framed in that way.

16:59

And I think, you know, on the most basic level
that building connections is what we’re meant to do as people.

17:08

It’s yeah, it’s just a way of surviving
and being in the world and having community.

17:16

And I think that’s important. And I think historically within the LGBTQ2+ communities,

17:26

there’s been a disconnect between generations
because you know, one reason is because the AIDS epidemic.

17:34

Another reason is often folks are kind of

17:40

there’s… different generations have different values
or different thoughts of what comprises of the queer community.

17:49

And that is not necessarily
always accepted. Certain generations

17:55

don’t accept others who are within the queer community,
but really like often queer folks, you know,

18:03

sometimes have disconnect from blood relations,
especially in the coming out process.

18:09

So that importance of connecting with community
is like essentially your chosen family.

18:17

And I wonder how… do you both have any ideas of how to create those connections
between generations,

18:27

be it either queer or non-queer?

18:33

For me,
I think there is a lot of learning over the last few years

18:39

about what is our community, you know. You know, I spent several years as a lesbian separatist.

18:48

So I can attest to this slicing of the rainbow and you know, I think one of the other impacts

18:59

that we don’t necessarily think about is assimilation. And one of the other ones is that, you know,
I think one aspect of that kind of generational divide

19:09

is that people get very settled in their own
little subset of the community.

19:16

And unless they have a reason to break out of it,
then it allows us to sort of sit

19:22

in our lack of understanding and, you know, and
quite honestly, sometimes that leads to immediate judgment

19:29

rather than sort of saying, well,
I wonder what’s going on here. You know, when I did the first trans project,
you know, I had to learn a lot.

19:38

It wasn’t that, you know, I had any particular strong opinions
about it, but I just didn’t know.

19:46

I didn’t know, I had to learn the whole pronoun thing. I had to feel comfortable with it. And I still trip

19:54

and also because of that project,
which was a trans inclusion project for youth,

20:03

you know, I met all kinds of people who are like wonderful And I think the freedom of expression,
that was not part of my generation…

20:14

You know, I have people I know in my life who have been institutionalized,
jailed, beaten, all kinds of things.

20:23

Right. So the opening of the doors has in some ways,
you know, diluted the pond.

20:31

But I think what happens is that we look for
like, it’s just a natural human thing.

20:38

We look for like. And at the same time,
I think for people of my generation, there is also this longing because one of the things
that came up in our interviews is that

20:50

like when we were fighting for human rights legislation,
for women’s rights, for reproductive rights, whatever we were activists around,
there was this sense of community.

21:00

Right. You know, I mean, the lesbians were in there like a dirty shirt
during the AIDS epidemic.

21:07

I myself did, buddying for more than one person with AIDS. And at the same time, you know, because of that kind of sexism
generally in our society,

21:16

we’re laughed out of a lot of queer history
as if we were just a sidebar and, you know, so,

21:23

you know,
and it is true, like you know, my affinity is for women.

21:29

So most of my relationships are with women
doesn’t mean I don’t like men or I don’t, you know, like people
that are different than I am, for God sake.

21:39

Like, how boring is that? But I think that just like other issues,
you know, in our society,

21:46

you know, it’s our individual responsibility
to sort of challenge ourselves, to step out of that box

21:52

of thinking and engage with people and say,
tell me just tell me your story.

21:58

Tell me about yourself. Tell me more. I’m curious. Why do you think that or what experience taught
you that? Or you know, just to be more open.

22:09

But within the queer community, particularly
the older queer community, like we’re dying off for one thing.

22:18

And so,
you know, it’s kind of wanting to have a sense of legacy

22:25

as one thing,
but also wanting to kind of learn and continue to grow.

22:31

Right. And one way to do
that is to get to know people who are different.

22:36

Now, the rainbow is like a panoply. So you got a lot to choose from.

22:42

Right. But I think to your question, about how would we do that,
like we’ve been talking about that in my project as well.

22:52

Right. I think one thing that I have learned from this project
is that the way there, is through conversation,

23:00

perhaps facilitated conversation, you know, and people always have… it’s an easier
to get to know someone if you’re doing something together

23:09

that’s creative or productive or gardening or whatever it is. The what it is doesn’t matter
as long as the interest is mutual.

23:17

Yeah. I love that you said that last Joyce, because that was my answer is

23:24

when you sent me this question,
the first thought that came to mind was to find

23:29

a new hobby or broaden your interests or try something new.

23:35

Because I think that I mean, I will speak more on how like different systems of oppression are poisoning
in the queer community and have poisoned the queer community.

23:47

But I also just think that simply
a lack of outreach in communities

23:54

is really stunting our abilities to connect with each other.

24:00

I think it depends place to place,
but specifically living in Victoria for five years,

24:06

I think that there are a lot of really wonderful,
beautiful things about the LGBTQ+ community here.

24:14

But one of my biggest issues
being in community here is how difficult it is to,

24:21

I don’t know, break the brick wall to get in and out
and make those connections and move around.

24:28

And I think age definitely has something to do with that. And I think ageism is a

24:38

oppressive structure
that isn’t really talked about a lot, but that is

24:43

I think, huge in all communities,
including LGBTQ+ communities, but on both levels.

24:52

And I think that for me,
as someone who’s kind of a young adult,

24:57

I have definitely seen around me and also internalized ageism,
both for older and younger members of my community.

25:05

And I just think that that is a huge problem
and needs to be changed.

25:12

And I’m lucky enough to be in a position
where I am able to connect in my life with both younger people

25:19

and now I have a wonderful friend, Joyce, that I can connect with
who’s older than me.

25:27

And it’s really helped me realize that this myth that your friends have to be
in the same place in life as you, is just really BS.

25:38

Like it’s just not a real prerequisite
for finding common ground and connecting.

25:47

And I think we’ve been taught that you move through the world parallel to people

25:53

and that that is how you bond
when there’s just so much to learn from breaking out of that.

25:59

I think so, yeah.
I think that is my kind of more theoretical answer. And then on the practical side,
I think I’ve met people by trying things that scare me or

26:12

picking up a new hobby or doing something together. As you said, Joyce, it’s a really valuable way to connect,
I think.

26:18

And I have two thoughts from what you just said, Juliet. First the thought around a mentorship,
which I think traditionally it’s always

26:29

the older person who is supposed to be giving the wisdom
to the younger person as though… yeah, Joyce

26:37

is like shaking your head. But like that to me is also BS,

26:46

that that there is so much to share, a mentorship
should be nonhierarchical.

26:52

It should be an equal setting
that both people have things to learn from each other.

26:57

And I think you both have demonstrated
that so much of like sharing opinions,

27:03

sharing conversation,
that there’s just so much to learn from one another.

27:08

And something else that you said, Juliet, that made me think of
in our last Listener In Residence meeting

27:16

where monthly we would all meet over zoom and kind of update,
learn from each other, talk with each other.

27:24

So it wasn’t just our pairings, but one of the participants
who I think is our youngest participant

27:30

said that like over Zoom, having these
these monthly meetings was like the most amount of queer folks

27:37

that they had ever experienced,
which really was touching for me because again, my assumption

27:43

that younger folks than me are having queer experiences
like earlier,

27:48

like realizing that they are queer and also building
that community earlier, but how that is not always the case too.

27:57

Yeah, that just sparked in my mind. I can touch on this mentorship thing… In the past

28:04

like I had a business mentor and, it didn’t work

28:09

partially because we couldn’t relate well, primarily
because we couldn’t relate to each other.

28:14

Business models were totally different.
The sector was different. And so it was a frustrating process for me because

28:24

I didn’t feel like he felt any… he felt

28:30

unavailable as well because he couldn’t relate. Right. So it was frustrating on both our parts.

28:36

That’s why I particularly like the way you set this up. Right.

28:42

It was funny for me when Juliet was talking about

28:47

how she went to a re-skilling class and learned
how to make corn tortillas from scratch sort of thing.

28:53

And, you know, here I am. I’m old enough. I was part of that whole generation
where, you know, there was this idea

29:03

that there was enough labor, enough skilled labor,
and you just stopped funding it.

29:08

Right. So now at this end of my life
where people my age and younger

29:15

are retiring from those skilled programs,
now there’s this huge gap.

29:21

I think the other thing, too, is that
we tend to think in little blocks right, you know,

29:30

there is this natural beginning, middle and end
that really from a lifespan approach, we don’t think like that.

29:36

You know, we think there’s youth
and that has this certain age group and then there’s kind of this big block of your “productive years”
and then there’s this gradual decline.

29:48

But there are so many nuances and nowadays, too, like, I mean, even my generation,
I didn’t do the same thing my entire career.

29:58

I know people who did, but I didn’t. And so, you know,
there was this very linear model of life

30:09

that is thin and flat
and doesn’t really kind of reflect in any reality

30:16

the richness of lives that people live whether that’s,
you know, it doesn’t matter what the parameters are on it.

30:23

Right. You know, it’s kind of like this desire… We all have a desire for a full life.
And so I think we do ourselves…

30:32

And because we don’t see that inter-generationally
and with particularly

30:37

the decline of having that extended family idea kind of,

30:43

you know, a micro community that you can develop
different relationships with and go to different people

30:49

and talk to each other
about how they got through this or that or, you know,

30:55

that might be a mythical version of family these days. But you know, there isn’t that kind of built in support anymore.

31:02

So back to your question or the comment you made
about the young person and having that queer surrounding.

31:10

Right. Luckily, I kind of fell into it when I was coming up,

31:16

the bar was the place to go. But, you know, like I also came out thinking, well,
everybody was just like me.

31:22

Well, that wasn’t true either. So it was kind of how do we create possibilities for

31:31

those of us at any stage of life? Right. One of the fears that is there within my age
group is ending up in a care situation

31:40

where, you know, they might have a policy
at the institutional level, but your neighbor

31:48

you know, doesn’t have any background
and has very strong judgments and opinions. And at our age on stage, tend to come out unfiltered.

31:55

People are complex, right? We live complex lives. So, you know, our opportunities need to reflect that.

32:04

And while the beauty
of all of the online stuff that is available now is,

32:11

you know, is wonderful. At the same time, we’re 3D human beings

32:18

and it’s different to have an in-person conversation
than it is to have one online.

32:23

Joyce, are you saying that the bare bones expectations of capitalism

32:28

don’t
accurately reflect the nuances and richness of being alive?

32:34

I’m shocked. [Laughter] Absolutley not. [Laughter]

32:43

This is why we’re a good pair. I ramble, and she makes it a succinct point. [Laughter]

32:50

Speaking of capitalism, and what is expected of us,

32:55

so this program, this Listener In Residence
program, is not a traditional art gallery project.

33:02

It isn’t… a lot of projects that I curate I get questions from individuals saying, why is this art?

33:10

This is an ongoing part of my curatorial process
of always being questioned and always having many answers.

33:17

But not everyone, of course, agrees. What do you think are the values of having kind of this
more nontraditional…

33:25

because many people think of art galleries they think we’re going to paint landscapes,
we’re going to sculpt figures.

33:33

And that’s kind of in general,
you know, there’s different perceptions of art, but I think that’s a generic one
that is shared by a lot of the public.

33:43

So what kind of values do you think are. in having these kind
of nontraditional art programs?

33:51

I think the first thing that comes to mind for me is this idea of process versus product
and how we’ve been taught,

34:01

I think by kind of the institution
taking over our creative minds that

34:09

a final product is necessary and is the art piece. When I actually think that that couldn’t be farther
from the truth.

34:18

I think that the creative process is
what makes something creative.

34:23

And so, you know, kind of returning back
to the beginning of our conversation about how like building a relationship
became a creative process for Joyce and me.

34:32

I think that speaks to the limits of seeing art as something that is on a page
and is decontextualized

34:42

and isn’t in the world and isn’t in community
and isn’t just an everyday part of being alive.

34:48

And I guess the other thing that comes to mind is the archive
and this construct that we have of the archive

34:57

and what we get to save
and what we think is worthy of documenting.

35:02

I don’t think that that is apolitical and obviously,
I mean that’s a

35:08

much longer conversation that I think folks, and a lot of queer
folks, are having within art gallery spaces

35:16

because, you know, historically art galleries
haven’t been affirming of subversive ways of creating.

35:25

And I think that that is what art is all about.

35:31

And so part of that is breaking up, how can the process become archive? And like,
how can a relationship become a piece of art?

35:42

And I think those are questions that are worthy
of being on the table, even if they sound silly. And they’re also, I think, caught up in returning
to the experience of queerness and what that can offer.

35:55

Yeah. I was reminded as you were speaking, Juliet
that, you know, it’s just like binary code, right?

36:03

You know, like we see the world in black and white. It’s ones or zeros, you know. Well,
we know that isn’t true about gender.

36:11

So why would it be true about anything else? Right. And, you know, and in my meditation tradition, we view life
as sacred and that art like life is part of everyday life.

36:24

You know, it’s just part of.
And that you can be artistic around your space.

36:31

You can be artistic around your dress. There’s nothing… We think it’s kind of like art, not art.

36:39

And that, I think that sort of binary approach,
it is just not operational now.

36:46

See you got me on this bandwagon again. Now I go to classism right, because who goes to art galleries, right?

36:54

Who owns art? Right. Those kinds of things, you know? So I think there’s this…

36:59

We create these little boxes
that make me better than you, right?

37:05

You know that all of it is reflections,
we’re looking for these reflections of, you know, am I okay?

37:11

Who am I? Right. You know, when really every
single being has expression, so that’s

37:21

part of the reason why I like mostly artistic endeavors

37:27

that are transient, right or more improvizational

37:34

because it’s really kind of who am I now?

37:40

What am I expressing now? When I put something out there,
how does somebody else who has a completely different life

37:48

respond to that? How does it affect me
when I hear their response to it?

37:54

It’s a form of communication,
a very creative form of communication, that we have the possibility to keep creating.

38:04

So I think when we think about the values
that that expresses is it’s life affirming.

38:10

You know, it’s kind of that value of diversity. If we come back to the topic of our queer community

38:19

it’s kind of like, you know, there’s kind of those levels
that take us from acceptance,

38:25

from discrimination to acceptance, right,
you know, and it’s along that spectrum. And

38:33

my firm value is that diversity creates richness. If we have this idea
that we’re still learning in this world, and now I need to

38:43

learn how to save the world, what does that mean
about our behavior and what we choose to do?

38:49

There’s just so many things out there. If I think of all the books that I’ve read in my lifetime,
that would be a significant number of books,

38:57

but it would be a drop in the bucket compared to how many books
actually exist, you know, and that’s only one form.

39:06

So I’ll get off my soapbox. And I feel like you both beautifully expressed
how much like the importance

39:14

of bringing a queer theory or a queer lens into institutions.

39:21

Be it art galleries or be it other institutions, because, you
know, it’s hard to express outside of a queer community,

39:32

but like that Joyce, you touched on like the transient nature,
which I feel like

39:38

is often a queer experience of transient in identity transient, in some times community and even the archives,

39:49

Juliet, that you were talking about. Like just as
we did a taxonomy system within plants

39:56

to like kind of colonialize… these like colonial… like colonize nature itself….

40:02

We have kind of done through archives in museums
of like needing

40:09

to have exact numbers with everything and often collecting
what was thought to be important,

40:16

which isn’t necessarily a representation of what
there is in this world of art.

40:23

And I think you’ve already maybe both touched on this,
but I’ll see if there’s any other answers.

40:28

But what kind of changes would
you want to see within art galleries? I mean, I really appreciate you
bringing up the colonial nature of hierarchies,

40:38

because that was the first thing that came to mind as well
when I saw this question was just the need for

40:44

a real critical inquiry
into decolonization, not in like necessarily a

40:53

just a reconciliatory nature, but also like a critical inquiry
into like how our knowledge systems

41:04

are reflective of like world views
that are harmful to anything that isn’t like enlightenment

41:14

discourse and like “normy” or the “normification” of everything,
you know like hierarchy I think is an example of that

41:23

that I think is something that isn’t necessarily
always critically unpacked as a colonial construct.

41:29

But that, I think is… and like even the idea of mastery

41:34

and skill comes to mind as well as something that needs,

41:40

I think, a lot of unpacking like within art galleries
and in greater society.

41:46

And I think just like on a personal level, like I am
someone who has experienced

41:54

kind of imposter syndrome about my place in the world
as an artistic and creative person.

42:02

And Listeners In Residents kind of gave me the opportunity
to really work on my confidence.

42:09

I think as someone who has something to offer
and like can bring something

42:16

to the table in community
and I think that came from, Regan

42:22

you and Cara offering like intentionally not making it a hierarchical space
and also intentionally leaving it so open ended that

42:33

I felt like the things that I was bringing to the table
were valuable and I didn’t have to question or compare.

42:41

And that was huge for me
because I think that we’re brought up to constantly

42:47

be questioning ourselves
and comparing what we create to other people’s work. And I think that that has no place in the queer community
and has no place in life, you know?

42:59

So yeah, I guess that was both an expansive and specific response that came up for me.

43:08

Yeah.
I think the idea that we have to earn our right to be here, I think that’s the idea that really needs to be challenged
because we, we all do.

43:17

We all have that inherent right,
you know, our experiences shape us and,

43:23

and so they shape our perspective
and the wonderful thing about having

43:29

neuroplasticity and minds that can learn
is that we can change our

43:35

you know, our expectations and change our experiences
and change our choices about how we participate in the world and how we develop.

43:43

I know one of the things that I have seen some organizations do is kind of really focus
on setting up these intergenerational conversations.

43:53

And it just reminded me that you got so many youth
who applied for Listeners In Residence.

44:00

You know, I mean, I think that because of the isolation
not just because of the pandemic or because we’re queer

44:08

and we have a hard time finding each other or, you know,
but I just think that really

44:16

the developed world is kind of
well practiced in generating isolation from each other.

44:23

And, you know, this idea of always comparing ourselves
like that’s so counterproductive.

44:30

And I mean, you know, with an idea of learning
about doing it with a loving lens,

44:35

like most of us, I don’t know about you,
but I have a giant inner critic and you know, and I think that’s a cultural thing.

44:42

And so when people who are not gender
normative have really experienced that kind of isolation

44:50

in a particular way,
because somehow who we are is just not okay.

44:55

And you, while that might be changing,
I still think we have a long way to go. I mean, you know, yes, maybe in Canada
we have lots of freedoms but, you know,

45:06

that’s not true around the world. And

45:12

and, you know, I myself would welcome more conversation with people who are different than I am,
whether it’s race, culture or belief system.

45:20

You know, how they view family, how they view community,
you know, how they do living and dying.

45:26

I don’t know. Like really
there are so many topics that we could learn from each other.

45:31

And also, you know, there are buried within us,
lots of skills that the heteronormative

45:39

majority kind of sees as lost, when I think really
they’re just kind of buried a bit somewhere.

45:46

Yeah. I think there’s lots of possibilities
for how art galleries can really engage community differently,

45:52

you know, even to kind of look at things that they do have
within their collections and sort of say, you know,

45:58

how did this get to be here? Joyce, You made me think of this book.

46:04

It’s called The Queer Art of Failure,
which is a very good book. It’s all about

46:10

how it’s in queer culture’s nature to fail,
and how great that failure is

46:17

because it’s like success is actually a heteronormative thing
that queer folks are trying to get to.

46:25

But really like, no, you need to like create your own success by failing at the heteronormative system.

46:34

And I feel like you both spoke to that of like art galleries
of instead of like going with what has been tradition

46:43

and that thought of success, maybe finding a new way, creating
new systems.

46:50

That was the end of our beautiful conversation. Does anyone have any final thoughts?

46:57

I just wanted to express my gratitude for the opportunity

47:02

to explore these questions for this period of time.

47:08

I think it’s just added more than I could hope for to my life,

47:15

and I guess that speaks to the care with which you Regan

47:26

went about facilitating. So thank you.

47:33

I would echo that. Like, I’m not a big fan of too much structure.

47:40

So I, I really appreciated the openness
of sort of the suggestions around the curriculum

47:48

that we could find our own way. There was just enough kind of frame to

47:55

make it clear
and at the same time leave lots of possibility for discovery and also to the Art Gallery itself for really continuing

48:05

to apply for innovative projects that help, you know,

48:10

in that process of change. The change process
that I have used in the last kind of 15 years

48:18

is called Theory U and one of the stages of it is prototyping

48:24

and Otto Scharmer who is the designer of this process, says
fail early, fail often.

48:33

So, it’s kind of how we learn
and how we figure out what works,

48:40

because particularly in Western cultures,
we spend so much time planning and organizing

48:45

and directing
and doing all of these things that actually almost

48:51

for the most part, prevent a creative outcome,
whatever that is,

48:56

you know, whether that’s an increase
or enhancement in the sense of belonging in an organization.

49:04

Right. You know, which is probably pretty fundamental to most of us. And thank you, Regan, having us share this with you.

49:12

And thank you for conceptualizing a program. Thank you.

49:17

I look forward to seeing you soon. Juliet, Joyce, thank you so much for joining me.

49:24

For those who would like to learn more about my personal curatorial projects,
you can head over to my website.

49:32

reganshrumm.com and for more info about the AGGV’s
Listener In Residency program, please visit aggv.ca.

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