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hi everyone we are here today on our

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second episode of the chorus effect I’m so excited that Charles Brophy has

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decided to join us from Kansas Kansas City he is a Kansas City Missouri

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please nan Charles if that’s correct awesome Kansas City Missouri he is a

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three-time Grammy award-winning conductor in demand all over the world and were so excited to just chat with

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him a little bit about his experience today and and have a little bit of fun

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I’m gonna add him into the broadcast in just a second

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hey I love it

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wow that’s never camera without three at the same time well I could have but I

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thought you’d get nervous when I was gone so long it’s so nice to see you

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thank you very much for taking the time you look fantastic

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we’re all in quarantine very fair that they get to see me and I don’t get to

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see them since the knockdown thing I’ve been kind of living as a caveman I think

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we all have yeah tell me how you’re doing like what are you I think some of

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our listeners may know that you live on a beautiful ranch but tell us about that

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and how you’ve been staying busy and what you’ve been doing well when you

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have 16 horses 15 chickens two cats

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staying busy is never a challenge and especially that it’s spring where did it

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go its breeding season and so I’ve been

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breeding don’t tell anyone eight eight matters and so that’s quite a

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Rubik’s Cube of which Mayor when is she ready which stallion what day of the week is

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it when will it get here can the vet come all of that kind of stuff so I know

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you can’t tell by looking but I am a brilliant mathematician that’s that’s

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quite amazing I mean how do you have time for music when you have that kind of action happening on the farm I don’t

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really have time for anything but music because you know when we were out and

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free I always said I’m either doing it or think about doing it thinking about

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doing it all the time but now all I do is think about doing it all the time

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so every step of the way I’m singing a song there’s hardly a difference between

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I’m hearing voices and I hear voices do

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you sing to the horses I do and I always talked to them and I always tell them

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that they’re the most beautiful one I go to the next stall and tell them they’re

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the most beautiful one oh that’s amazing well I’m glad you you have something to

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keep you busy I think a lot of choral musicians are going a little stir-crazy and we’re not sure when we’re gonna be

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able to sing together but we’ve gotta keep busy how are you planning and like

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if you have a lot can’t sölden know anybody wants to come out to the farm and shovel some with me they they

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are welcome you might have some some

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aspiring conductors to take you up on that if you promise them some conducting lessons or study lessons sure awesome

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okay you know what here’s the perfect opportunity thank you for bringing part of the reason I even bought the

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farm in the first place is because I can sleep 14 people in my farm now you might

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have to not care so much who you wake up next to but we have room for 14 people

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and there’s a perfect loft upstairs with

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a full bathroom and it and it looks out over the farm you know in a window and

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we’ll put a little keyboard up there so composers could just sit on it and I say

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that all the time and nobody ever takes me up oh and another bonus there is a 14

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by 24 is that what I mean 14 by 28 foot pool in the backyard

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42,000 gallons and it’s heated so Wow

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I think you better be careful who you invite because the Sousa border opens I’m there you’ll have all of us

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Canadians come on walking I love the Canadians I wish I was one yeah we’re

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pretty my beer I wasn’t listening to the news on the way in not the most fun

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activity anywhere you have about the good stuff good stuff um okay you

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mentioned composers so I’m gonna talk about new music how do you go about

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commissioning how do you approach a composer what do you enjoy about working with composers or not enjoy just tell us

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about like that process of new music creation because I know you’ve done a lot of that I I loved participating in

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the creation of a new piece of art I

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like pretty songs and so for me it is

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fun too commune with a composer in helping them

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discover ways to make their statement to

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say what they say and then conversely it is so fun for me when what they have to

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say inspires my news and kind of prize

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off some of my scales too to become more

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open you know you

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I have such extreme respect for composers because I think a musician of

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any ilk is way more brave than

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Braveheart himself because the composers

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put their heart part out on the page and then they have to give it away to

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somebody else to put their finger any fingers all over it and so then the

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beauty is when you can find when the composer can find a conductor with

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switch with whom they find Sympatico and then it’s such a lovely thing when the

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composer says wow that was more

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beautiful than even I dreamed it to be when the heart of the composer aligns

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with the heart of the conductor and then magic can be made wow that is so poetic

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and beautiful I think that’s that’s the dream that’s every composers dream is to find partner in a conductor who really

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understands their work and can take it to a level that they may not have even

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imagined yeah all right composers

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you heard it here there is the responsibility to me the most important

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thing about choral music is how it illuminates elevates exposes the meaning

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of the word so composers don’t you dare put the weak

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syllable of a word on beat one that makes no sense because then I have to

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rimi turret or talk to the singers about okay see that beat one right there

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that’s really beat four and then you get what I mean yes I know exactly what you

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mean I’m so excited to hear you talk about that because I have sort of grown up into I’m a composer as well and you

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know that because of me I don’t know that but the there’s sort of these two

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schools at least that I’ve heard about and one is your composer you write music you bend the text to your will and you

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make it fit your musical ideas the other school is we are servants to the text

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and we it is our responsibility to to elevate it as you say I have a feeling

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you’re in that camp am i right well thank you for asking that in the most

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metaphysical of all I think that’s why we are all born is to serve and to help

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each other that’s why I think we’re born so there’s kind of two things when

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singing does the voice serve the song

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or does the song serve the voice well I

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think the right answer is clear there may be people who don’t agree with me

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but I think the right answer is clear and it’s the same with with composition

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I think today anyway I feel strongly

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that the music serves the words and then

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the singing serves the words the way we color the voice the way we enunciate and

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articulate it all serves the words

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[Music] because if our listeners if our

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consumers don’t understand appreciate

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internalize what we are saying to them

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whether textually or musically then our

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listeners walk away from the experience not having felt anything and I think

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that we artists recognize that the object of all art is to provoke response

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so a that’s nice composition is of

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little value that’s nice performance is

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just annoying now parenthetically does anybody know

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that that’s nice joke it’s great

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I can’t tell it here offline we get it after you okay Wow

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yeah that is so profound what composers are your favorites to work with in that

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regard the ones you feel tap into a provoking kind of response that you’ve

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enjoyed working with Jane Belmont Ford

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is one of my very favorite composers she lives actually here in town she’s

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written lots of music for us in fact music that she’s written for

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other people she’s written for us you can hear it in the music and she just creates such a

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luscious mix of sonorities and harmonic

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shifts and complexity of chords that

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that create exponential realizations of

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meaning there is no such thing as want in her music it’s plead yearn you know

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everything isn’t is what’s the word for that really deep why she’s excited oh

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yeah and yeah she’s good my other

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composers that I really gosh I’m sorry

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that I didn’t think about this no no you’ve worked with so many I worry

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that you worked with Steven Paulus I did lucky new and he’s one of the one

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that once it said that we sang his song better than it was is that you know how

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sometimes people give you a compliment

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and you kind of smile politely and let it roll on that was one of the first

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time was in my life actually that he said something that felt profoundly

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honest and genuine and I allowed myself

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to hear him and and then realize that

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that’s good whatever the exact line was

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you know mm-hmm it’s a treasured memory

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yeah I don’t think it happens very often for composers I’ve said that to a few conductors and and I you know it’s it’s

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not something you say lightly but there’s it’s been a very very special experience to go to a premiere and think

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like that’s not mine it’s like I think it’s the great joy of putting something

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into the world it’s seeing how it can grow outside of you and have a life of its own and it’s so incredibly

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satisfying when you hear someone really artistically interpret your work it’s

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very exciting well it is I feel like I’m doing what I

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was put on the planet to do took me a little while figured out but you know

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just yesterday I was talking to a

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composer from Oklahoma and he invited me to a zoom performance of a

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new piece of his and I was sorry to have missed it so acid was there is there a video of this and he said yes but

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performance wasn’t really very good mm-hmm and I know all of us in all of us have

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had those not-so-good performances and so on behalf of conductors around the

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world we apologize to you when we don’t

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do what you want you’re forgiven

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thank you yeah you know here’s an interesting story of John Corleone oh

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you know that name early early early early on when we were making that

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Fernhill it’s an amazing recording thank

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you but do you know that song la veta co no voyage now have that sound Canadians

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yeah I think that that’s the recording

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it’s on anyway this was back in the early days I don’t think we even had

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cellphones back oh god I don’t feel bad

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anyway we we were right in the middle of

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the recording and and I think we were singing this song off of manuscript although it was not a commission and he

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did not write it for us pardoning and so we would sing the song and record it and

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then we would email it to him and then he would make comments and send it back to us and then we would sing it again

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and then we would email it back to him

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well what ended up happening was I tried

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to surrender what I wanted to say to accommodate what he wanted it to be and

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of course I could never get right on the bullseye of what he wanted and because I

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was trying so hard to do him I couldn’t

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do me hmm and so then that piece is so

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beautiful but I regret in my youth I didn’t tell

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my truth because I was trying to tell his which I think just underscores what

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you’ve already said Kathleen about finding someone that you trust and then

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fly 3 yeah so exciting so beautiful

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can I ask we this pivot a little bit to singing in other languages I know one of

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your most acclaimed recordings is all in Russian so when you’re talking about you

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know elevating the text how how do you approach that when you’re working with an english-speaking audience and how do

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you rehearse a choir who is mostly Anglophone in really feeling the depths

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of of the meaning in the text when

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working with my choirs we talk about

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becoming the person of that song because

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you know we don’t want to just put it on like a coat the people who sang those

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Russian songs had dirt under their fingernails and we

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talked about how does our voice respond

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when we’ve been out in the field all day and we come into the chapel with dirt

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under our fingernails and sores on our feet and put ourselves in a humble place

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of worship no matter what your beliefs

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are that that is the character who is singing this song and so it it was in

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melding the persona of that people into

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our 24 white voices in black dresses so

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the actual sound of the chorus changed

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to me a lot of the beauty is found in

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the relationship of the inner voices and

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it’s not always so much just about the melody or the movement and the steering

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of the bass line but it’s about how the the tenor line and the Alto line

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sometimes helix around and then support

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the melodic line in a wave then this is

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the tricky part the as the melody transverses then it

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becomes more important and communicative

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and purposeful that’s what I mean because of what’s supporting it right

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right and it’s the way that that these pitches

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perhaps lean on one another mmm that then when the melody makes its

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shift then so you’re taking the whole

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culture and historical context and the and the experience of the people who

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would have been singing this at the time into the way you interpret the the text

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it’s not just the meaning of the text translated into English it’s this huge universe that you’re transporting

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everybody into that’s what we try to do that’s what we try to do and we try to

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do it in a genuine way we sing a lot of

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Chinese folk songs and chengyi composers

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you should know that name and too long her husband lived here in Kansas City

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and so Jinny comes over and she coaches our Chinese folk songs diction and then

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she sings them and she sounds like traditional Chinese opera you know with

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mm-hmm seeded red eyes and you know that and

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then we try and sing it and then she leaves and then I say okay singers

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imitate that because it’s quite full that sound is quite foreign to the way

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we manage our voices and then it gets better and then I say okay make a

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caricature of what she is doing we don’t

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mean that in a make fun of way but in an exaggerated

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what you think you’re doing so it becomes even bigger so then the listener

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can get it and then the beauty is we

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sing it for a primarily Chinese audience and they all order broccoli number 59

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afterwards and it’s you know it’s nice when when they can close their eyes and

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think that they are hearing a Chinese choir from from their homeland or

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whatever it is and you’ve done it in an authentic and respectful way where

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you’ve gotten advice from someone in the culture and it’s and and then but it’s

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that push the caricature idea like you say it’s not not making fun but it’s it’s pushing everybody outside their

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comfort zone because if we stayed in our little box we might not achieve those sounds hell I’d never get out of bed can I ask you

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at last official question and then we have a couple of questions from some of our viewers well I’m in a great time I

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don’t want this to end not only yet but I want you to speak may

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be summarized in this might be impossible you know a minute or a few sentences your top lessons you

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took from Robert Shaw I’m working with him as a singer and then it how that

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experience has influenced your conducting it’s that possible yep

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did you ever watch the Johnny Carson show I did not I’ve seen some YouTube clips

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okay the did you notice that the guests

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always have who knows what was in their coffee cup but well so i toast you it is

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coffee can I can I tip it up it is yeah okay so the question

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what I took most from Robert Shaw was

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frankly unspoken but he taught me to fly

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as free as I could and fly as high as I could and to be as unfettered as I could

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when I went to France for the first time to sing with him and we sat down in that

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big circle of singers I had no idea that

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you could listen at that level I don’t

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know is that a high level or is that it deep well I don’t know what it was I

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decided he I didn’t know I didn’t even know you were supposed to listen for that so musicians you’re supposed Alessa

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conductors especially you are supposed to listen I didn’t know that and then

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specifically he gave me some real tools

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about diction and then I have even

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though he never talked about this I’ve kind of made I have made it my own and made it my own now analysis of that

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procedure which I’m sure he did but he didn’t ever say it but now I think about

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with in a word what is the moment of the

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word that makes the mean the word mean what it does and then I listen to okay

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well so here’s a perfect example the word cold well if you don’t hear all of

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the sounds then you think I’m saying coal well then you have to wonder am I

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saying co al or c ll e and by then you’re twelve measures down the road

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and here here’s another little thing that that I have kind of put under the

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microscope with the word cold you Canadians know what that means

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oh yeah and do you see that we can in fact dictate the temperature of cold

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just in the way we sing it say it hmm cold that’s how you feel when you

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get out of the shower that’s when it’s

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chilly but the wind isn’t blowing cold

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that’s when you’re freezing and I think many times it doesn’t occur

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to conductors that we can be as

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innovative adventurous well what’s the

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other word for that for whatever in it

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creative that’s the word they can you can sing on cold you can sing that yeah

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and I think it just doesn’t occur to them and so we try to make every word be

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onomatopoetic or onomatopoeic both acceptable hmm

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then with the count singing and the verticality and the structure because

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everything we do has what my hand is

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doing now it has all of this inflection of speed of sound and a volume of sound

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and so sometimes we just have to do it without talent we say just so

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everybody’s doing the right thing at the same time hmm amazing lessons and that’s

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what he’s famous for I never had the chance to meet him but the the people I’ve talked to who were in the room

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yeah those things have have lasted in a generation of conductors beyond he’s

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worked right unless do I play sorry go ahead I wouldn’t be me if it wasn’t for him

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and they’re all of those videos of his

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master works that we did in New York are available so if you haven’t seen those

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people you should see you should’ve look for those cool I don’t know if they’re

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on YouTube or I think they’re free now baby well we searched master works

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Robert Shaw New York time yes so I think

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if you find it at all put it in their comments here you can see what I look like in my mid-20s is a good segue Jean

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Ashworth fartole is here she is a common

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heroes so she’s asking and I was chatting with my husband this morning he

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played horn under French horn under Robert Shaw one time and said that he could make the most subtle the most

34:28

dramatic effects with the most subtle movements and Jean is asking do you

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think conductors of choirs who choose oh I think I can actually put it on the screen here do you think conductors

34:41

acquires who choose not to use a baton but only their hands or arms are able to achieve much more expressive phrasing

34:48

from choirs what’s your take on that um I feel humbled to offer my opinion to

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Jean Ashworth Bartle okay so yes I do I think there is so much to

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be said for using the stick and if you

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don’t believe it watch am Howard Jones do it she is so

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meticulous with what she’s able to communicate frankly I’m not that good a

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conductor so I have to use other tools

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because in our work we capitalize on

35:40

diphthongs because I think that that

35:46

pronounces the word so with the way my hands are art whoops let me see how this

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goes I can’t brush my hair in a mirror either so well so you Canadians say more

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about having grown up in South Dakota and Michigan we say about and so if if I

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want to activate the word I can say and

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so with this I can inform words yeah and

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I cannot tell you the number of times because to me conducting is much like

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finger painting or playing charades that we make a movement and the object of

36:56

game is for them to guess what you mean and so I can’t tell you the number of

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times when I think God singers how did you know how to do that you know just with a simple you know with with this or

37:14

they can paint on the most eyelash it

37:24

you know if you utilize all of your tools and I love Eugene Ashworth Bardem

37:42

uh yeah the text the time that’s that’s

37:50

I think yeah yeah a difference yeah absolutely respect the people who use

37:56

sticks it’s important to be able to do that but for my agenda I need all of my

38:06

tools because I’m not a better conductor

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disappointing I highly doubt that jean has one other question okay do you have

38:19

a commission to work that you were not happy with did you still go ahead to make recommendations

38:24

you were so discreet what do you do yes

38:31

we oh goodness

38:36

okay everybody hold up your right hand I

38:43

solemnly swear to never ever repeat anything Charles ever says say that I

38:52

found Lisa yeah okay sound like it I

38:57

just change it

39:03

because I think many times the composer

39:09

has an idea about what they want to say but then they never have the opportunity

39:16

to hear what the song sounds like when it’s on its feet and I think that that

39:22

is true in terms of tempo I think it may

39:28

be true in terms of dynamic I admit

39:36

especially if the composer isn’t gonna be there I’ve changed some notes there

39:44

has only been one time that we didn’t

39:49

sing the song it was a song that used

39:57

nose flutes do you know what that you know that is it’s a native Native

40:03

American I don’t know if the indigenous in Canada use them but it’s something

40:09

that is an apparatus hmm and you you

40:15

play it by blowing out of your nose well the allergies and Phoenix at the time

40:22

were perilous and we never did that

40:29

piece they were logistical ops yes let’s say that it got it yeah and there have

40:36

been other pieces that we’ve done only once here’s another thing composers I

40:48

have to pay I don’t mean I have to pay my I pay my singers and so I have great

40:54

expectations of them so please don’t make pieces so hard that I can’t afford

41:02

to perform them because they’re rehearsing time because of rehearsal time and if they are so hard that we

41:09

can’t afford to perform them they better be worth it when we make the effort

41:17

that you know that thing about well

41:23

that’s just harder than it needs to be just to say what it wants to say that

41:30

yeah just be honest did I get all the aspects of that question yes I think so

41:38

so on the subject it will maybe finish with this you’re going to be all over

41:44

well we could chat forever I’m sure much to offer I don’t have to

41:50

feed until four yeah what time is it where you are is it an hour earlier then

41:55

yeah yeah I’m coming up on two twelve o’clock all right yes oh so we have we plenty of time right we could grab a

42:03

sandwich and meet back here in five it’s sunny in Toronto if you said it was raining there is raining here yeah okay

42:11

back to business music spoke you’re wearing your t-shirt I have I did that on purpose I love it

42:18

so for those of you who don’t know music spoke is a marketplace for composers to

42:24

sell their music online I am a composer member of music spoke they’re just an

42:30

amazing organization not a publisher per se but a self publishing platform is

42:36

that all correct Charles yes and the beautiful part is the composer makes the

42:41

majority of the money and they retain their copyrights which is not the case

42:49

with the major publishing houses who are my friends I know

42:56

yeah but it is a wonderful outlet for

43:02

for composers to generate revenue and and get exposure so you are an innovator

43:09

just be baldly bold yeah and if you would like your pieces to be in my

43:15

series then I get to make some of your money to about a series you’ve mentioned

43:23

changing composers pieces that edit being an editor means the series

43:29

tell us about that yeah yes but I mean I

43:35

I change notes I don’t mean to just say

43:42

I do it willy-nilly but I have a church choir I’ve been in the same directory oh I I have not been the same director I

43:50

have been the director at the same church for 25 years 26 years and you

43:57

know sometimes and what is it about the church composers that think they have to

44:03

go ups up a half step and big finish at the end so sometimes sometimes it’s not

44:15

a giant our man at the end so even though that’s what the music says if the

44:21

text hasn’t been big on men then don’t slap that on at the end and those

44:30

Picardy thirds sometimes they just kind of make you throw up in your mouth a little bit so I change them that’s great

44:43

and so in your series would you choose a work that needed a lot of changes or would you do you sort of cherry pick

44:49

your favorites that you feel represent a kind of unified message or voice or

44:57

style yes I am not opposed to suggesting

45:08

changes sometimes what has happened is I

45:16

will suggest the changes and the composer feels strongly enough that they

45:21

choose not to make the changes and put it in the series I’m good with that I

45:27

just don’t want sing that song okay uh

45:34

last real last question what are you looking forward to most when this whole

45:39

world situation is over that’s going to be the first thing you run and sing with your choir or do with

45:45

your choir and what are what are you how are you staying optimistic if you are no

46:01

I will be honest with you and unnecessarily I don’t have to tell you

46:08

this but I think with artists many times

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we feel deeply the things I feel I feel

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them hard and I admit it the throughout

46:28

this time I haven’t felt great a lot of

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the time you know what what I most look forward to is the human contact that

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we’ve not been able to enjoy touch is

46:54

one of my love languages if you will I’m

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a good hugger I love that that full-frontal connection so that’s I’m

47:13

gonna just go around hug everybody whether they want to or not so I may end

47:20

up in jail which will be that confinement thing all over again but

47:27

musically I you know oh you know last

47:34

night I was at the gas station in the Kansas City pitch had the big headline how much time

47:41

no no rush okay and the big banner headline on this magazine was digital

47:51

era is erasing the forming arts in Kansas City right and so

48:03

that got me thinking about you know all of these virtual choirs I think it’s a

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great thing it’s nice for people to keep singing but what those virtual choirs do

48:18

is rob us of the community of singing

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which I think it’s the most important thing that’s absolutely the best part

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about singing in choirs is that we get

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to do it together and we all get to we all require of

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ourselves to contribute our best muse

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I’ll say again and when we are doing

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those virtual choirs really the only object of the game is sing in tune and

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everybody do it together and we don’t yes we don’t we don’t have the

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opportunity to share our ears and to extend our receptors and to share our

49:21

hearts yeah but it’s a happy thing that

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we’re in tune and we’re together she’s also harder to do online that’s

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right right I know for me it’s been incredibly humbling as a conductor

49:38

because this the the gesture doesn’t mean anything if the people aren’t in the same room and have those receptors

49:45

like you say out because I think those receptors that listening is just as

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important or more as whatever I’m doing waving my arms right because you can

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because it can be interpreted a thousand different ways and even with 80 people have sung together for years and years

50:02

they might put the tea in a slightly different place even though I think I’m being clear and but it doesn’t mean

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anything unless there breathing together and can hear each other so it’s loci ought to be

50:13

interviewing you know that’s the brilliant part what I think you on that

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even born because you know by the time we get to performance I’ve given the

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whole thing away I you know I’ve get made everything their responsibility and

50:34

there is something about that breathing

50:43

organ that breathing organism that that

50:51

has now attained its own life and so

50:57

it’s a curious thing when you do the

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same repertoire with different choirs that it’s still the same song that’s a

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different song because it’s in a different organism that and and you know

51:21

with with an ensemble that is attuned to itself the tea is never ever on three

51:33

it’s where the community puts it mm-hmm

51:38

now we talked about well we don’t want it to be in the neighborhood of three

51:43

either and we hardly ever put a tea on three anyway because when you we hardly

51:52

ever karate-chop on three but we’ll do it on the e of three or the uh before

52:00

three that’s an interesting thing to experiment with if it’s one do but uh

52:07

mm-hmm that’s an to see how that kind of makes it you know the sound spring that’s a

52:15

fun thing to play with it yeah John Washburn is one of my mentors as a singer I sang with him for many years

52:21

and we a lot about vowel and a consonant just after and the choir just magically put

52:27

the consonant together if you do we would just say foul on the beat or urge on the beat or you know like and then

52:34

the T just just happened so much more organically but even those organic things I think are so difficult in a in

52:41

a virtual environment collective right you can you can extend your sensors but

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they don’t it’s like being on the farm in the rain you can’t pick up the signal

52:53

yes we did test that out early this money didn’t go so well so I appreciate you coming into town speaking of John

53:03

Washburn I got to conduct a Vancouver Chamber Choir once when was that before

53:08

or after my timing before you were born probably you know they have that world

53:17

no no what was it it was conducting master classes yeah natural conductor symposium yeah that’s it that’s it

53:24

that’s it and gosh it’s such an

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interesting thing people remember your experiences you are having now because

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when you evolve to and a more

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experienced age you’ll look back and think wow that was so cool

53:56

I was so young and I wish I would have

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known then what I know now cuz I would have gotten it a little better

54:08

appreciate it ever yeah written some stuff down right believed

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it I don’t know that I love John Washburn and every time I’m in Vancouver

54:21

we get together Oh wonderful well he doesn’t know this yet but I’m gonna try to get him on here oh you should tell

54:28

him I said good things about him oh well they’re public now yes yeah Kerry

54:33

Tennant Oh maybe her and Rachel rinsing coffee

54:39

do you know her there’s guys with the

54:48

chorus in Halifax Tim I see a name it’s because then I believe some people out

54:54

but I just have such a fondness for

54:59

choral singing in Canada and the Canadian people it is true what they say

55:06

they’re nice they are and the community here has been so in touch and in

55:12

communicating behind the scenes a lot during this whole thing so it feels sort

55:19

of more connected than ever and more important than ever so it yeah we very much don’t take it for granted right and

55:26

so when this thing is over imma be looking for work you are welcome here

55:32

any time as long as we’re welcome on the ranch suza borders open that’s right perfect

55:38

yeah thank you so much Charles this is just fun I really appreciate your

55:43

insight and your time your expertise we’ll do it again sometime

55:48

well thank you I don’t know that I know anything but I I believe what I think

55:57

and we appreciate hearing it okay so now do I get to know who’s on here or

56:06

exactly who is you’ll be able to see after the fact so you can say you can wave hello to them all now and and I’ll

56:15

send you the archived recording so you can watch it back and read all the comments no time to play all my cookie

56:22

expressions okay I’m gonna say like radio okay everybody here I I’m honored

56:34

that you would want to stop by and say hi Thank You Charles have a good afternoon you too

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