0:09

>> Welcome everyone to the third and final
chat in the speaker series for the exhibition,

0:15

History is Rarely Black or White at the Agnes
Etherington Art Centre in Kingston, Ontario.

0:21

My name is Jason Cyrus, the 2021 Isabel Bader
Fellow in Conservation and Textile Research.

0:27

I’m the curator of the exhibition and I am
joined today by the fantastic and brilliant

0:32

and wise professor Nigel
Lezama from Brock University and Dr. Julie Crooks from
the Art Gallery of Ontario.

0:40

Our conversation today is entitled Style as
Armour, Identity, Clothing, and Self-Fashioning

0:46

in the exhibition and within our works. But as we talk about clothing
and as we talk about identity

0:55

and race, we almost must talk about land. And it’s important to know that the
Agnes is situated on the traditional land

1:02

of the Anishinaabe and Haudenosaunee
Territory in what is now known as Kingston but has traditionally been known as Cataraqui.

1:08

I, myself I’m Guyanese Canadian. I come from a South American country
that has been the traditional land

1:15

of the Amerindian and the Arawak First Nation. And as an immigrant settler, I
have a very complicated relation

1:22

to the land that is very layered. It’s important to me that my work and the
work that I’m a part of in this project

1:29

with the Agnes is part of advancing
reconciliation and decolonization

1:34

and placing the stories and realities of
marginalized identities front and forward.

1:41

I am so happy that you’re all joining us today.

1:46

We’ve been blown away by the interest
in the exhibition and in these talks. We’ve had over 400 people sign up overall.

1:55

We’ve had folks — I’m just going
to look over at my screen here so I can give you a good overview of just
where folks have been coming in from.

2:03

Definitely Ontario. We’ve got people from all over Canada, from
PEI, from Nunavut, Manitoba, Nova Scotia,

2:11

Newfoundland, Alberta, BC and
Quebec, and that’s just Canada alone. We’ve had folks tuning in from the U.S., a large
contingent from the U.S., as well as the UK,

2:21

Saudi Arabia, Dubai, Brazil,
Spain, Israel, and Norway.

2:27

It’s been fantastic to know that
the work that we’ve worked so hard

2:34

to put together has reached a global audience. And we’ve had over 2,400 folks
access the online website again,

2:43

coming from as many varied, varied places. And it’s important that a conversation
like this is heard and is had.

2:53

What I’m going to do, just give you an
overview of how today is going to go. I will, first of all, introduce your
speakers and read their bios and as well,

3:02

I will give you an overview of the exhibition. For many of you, we’ve had the joy of
understanding that many of you have signed

3:09

up for all three sessions and
you’ve been consistently coming. So I don’t want to bore many of you with
an overview that you’ve already heard.

3:17

But I’d give some folks who are joining us
and you an opportunity to just get a sense of what the show is about, what its core points
are, and how it connects to our speakers.

3:28

And then, I will kick it over to Nigel and
Julie, who will share a bit of their work, introduce themselves to you,
then we’ll get into our chat

3:35

because that’s why we really are all here. To many of us, Dr. Julie
Crooks needs no introduction.

3:41

She is the curator of the Arts of Global Africa
and the Diaspora, the Art Gallery, of Ontario.

3:46

Previously photography curator
as well at the AGO. She has done many exhibitions and projects with
BAND, Black Artists Network in Dialogue Gallery,

3:56

as well as the Royal Ontario
Museums of Africa Project. She holds a Ph.D. from SOAS, the Department of
History of Art and Archaeology at the School

4:06

of Oriental and African Studies
at the University of London.

4:12

She is also a dear mentor and friend. And I am so honoured and
grateful to have her here today.

4:19

Professor Dr. Nigel Lezama
also needs no introduction. He’s an Associate Professor of Modern Languages,
Literatures, and Cultures at the Department

4:28

of Brock University, as well as being
the Graduate Director of French Studies. His work looks at — examines
rather marginalization

4:36

and peripheral fashion luxury practices
and how they transform dominant culture.

4:42

Lezama also is coedited or has coedited rather
the volume Critical Canadian Luxury Studies,

4:48

Decentring Luxury, which will be
published through Intellect Books. Nigel is also a dear mentor and friend.

4:55

And I am extremely fortunate to have Nigel
and Julie here to chat with us today.

5:01

Thank you for being here. What I will do now is give you
an overview of the exhibition.

5:06

And again, I’ll try not to do
that for too long so we can get into our chat, and then we’ll get going.

5:13

Okay. So History is Rarely Black or White gives
you an overarching look at the connections

5:18

between the cotton supply chain in the
1800s via the antique and historic garments

5:25

at the Agnes Etherington Art Centre
that are in our permanent collection. And the cotton supply chain and its
connections to harmful resource extraction,

5:35

exploitative labour practices in the form of the
Transatlantic Slave Trade, and the connections

5:43

that these factors have to life in Canada
and the way that Canadian diversity

5:50

and identity has been crafted
specifically in relation to Blackness. In this first gallery, you’re seeing a setup
that pairs the Agnes cotton garments with a map

6:01

and artwork again also from
the Agnes’s collection. It gives you a sense of that wider supply chain. The artwork in the back shows a sense of
the ports, the lands, the plantations,

6:11

and the central figures that have
created this wider supply chain.

6:17

The exhibition also uses or rather is
in conversation with contemporary art.

6:26

We’ve been extremely fortunate to have
Karin Jones, a multidisciplinary artist

6:32

from Vancouver create a special
commission for us. This is called Freed.

6:37

And Karin’s installation is primarily made of
raw cotton and Black hair that she has collected

6:45

from salons close to her studio in Vancouver.

6:50

And what Freed does is that
it presents in a sense, a praxis or a methodology
for the exhibition itself.

6:58

It’s a veil of cotton in here that
surrounds a gorgeous wedding dress from 1893.

7:06

And the point of the installation
is to show that while we normally

7:12

from a fashion historical perspective, look
so much at the materiality of its garment and where the materials are coming from
and how the material would have come

7:20

through trade networks, as well as the way
that a garment is made and constructed, whether that be embroidery or corsetry or how
the fabric is loomed, as well as the garments,

7:31

social and personal biography,
both its wearer and its maker. Freed tells us, though, we must also look at
the humanity and the social and cultural history

7:42

that is involved in the making of a garment. By inserting the garments with this veil,
Freed and Karin’s work talks in a sense says

7:51

that we must also look at the humanity involved
in making a garment such as this, whose history

7:56

and whose very makeup comes from
the Transatlantic Slave Trade.

8:01

The exhibition also uses conservation science.

8:07

To tell this story we partnered with the
Queen’s Facility for Isotope Research to use a process called Isotope Analysis
whereby you can learn so much more in detail

8:18

about this process in our
online exhibition created by Danuta Sierhuis, our digital director.

8:25

What Isotope Analysis does is, it
reduces the fibre or fibre sample

8:31

from the garments to its core elements. Carbon, lead, strontium, oxygen, and hydrogen
and based on the unique signature or makeup

8:41

of those elements in each sample that we’ve
selected from the cotton garments of the Agnes.

8:49

You then can get a sense of where
geographically the garments would’ve come from. This part of the project was spearheaded
by the brilliant Anne-Marie Guerin

8:59

who is the conservator on this project. And she partnered with QFIR to
be able to use this process.

9:08

I just spoke with Evelyne
and Dan from the QFIR lab.

9:13

And the process while we wrapped that up, I would say in September it takes very
specialized expertise and takes a while

9:21

to be able to interpret this raw data. And we are hoping to be able
to announce that soon. So please check back into the website
and see what else there’s to learn.

9:31

So the first gallery, which is
also behind me, like I said,

9:37

set up this wider cotton supply chain, looking
at mixing material, culture with social

9:42

and political history, while
also using science as a way of connecting these three pillars,
these pillars, so to speak.

9:50

The next gallery connects us now to the
humanity of the cotton trades specifically in the 1800s.

9:57

Here we’re looking at the history
of the Gullah/Geechee Nation, an amalgamation of different people groups
taken through the Transatlantic Slave Trade

10:08

and forcibly settled in the
Southern Coast of the United States. And this is an installation created by Damian
Joel, interdisciplinary artist who uses fashion,

10:20

installation, photography,
and film as his medium. And what Damian did was create a fashion story

10:28

that tells the Gullah/Geechee
Nation’s past, present, and future. And this was done in conversation
with the nation itself.

10:38

Now, we’re moving into what I call
in a sense the Canadian reality.

10:45

Based on the fact that many descendants through
the Transatlantic Slave Trade came into Canada

10:51

through — whether through
different migratory routes. One central to the exhibition
being the Underground Railroad.

10:58

In this gallery, we were looking at routes
from different American states and plantations

11:05

that were there, and its connecting
points to the ways that folks settled

11:10

in Upper Canada also known as you know
Southern Ontario and created a life here.

11:16

We’ve got in the exhibition as you can see on
the left different tintypes which we will speak

11:24

to in our chat that show
the ways that folks who came

11:29

through the Underground Railroad used
clothing and style and photography as this way of leaving their past behind
and creating a new identity

11:37

for themselves and reclaiming their humanity. There are fantastic archival loans from
the Queen’s special book library as well

11:47

as the Ontario Archives of the very first, the
very first printed copies of Uncle Tom’s cabin

11:54

that still contain two — that still contain
some errors and a name change of a character

12:01

that — rather an original character
whose name has since changed, as well as Benjamin Drew’s:
A North-Side View of Slavery.

12:09

So while Harriet Beecher Stowe’s book, Uncle Tom’s Cabin is an allegorical
account based on Henson Josiah’s life.

12:19

Benjamin Drew’s book A North-Side View
of Slavery is the actual account of folks who have been settled in — who
settled in Southern Ontario.

12:27

And it shows there the atrocities
that they went through, through leaving, and also during enslavement.

12:36

And crucially to this part of the exhibition,
the reality of their life in Canada, that Canada was while it was different
to their existence in the States,

12:44

Canada was not necessarily
a complete safe haven. And that’s what the artwork of Gordon Shadrach,

12:49

the portraits that you see behind
the clothing there speaks to. That so many things that are a part of
our contemporary Canadian conversation,

13:00

Black Lives Matter, social justice,
racial equality, and many conversations

13:06

that there has been a resurgence
to after the summer of 2020.

13:13

Gordon’s work speaks to untroubled
society of Canada and identity in race and Canada being this place where,
because in relation to the States,

13:22

we’re seen as a place that’s much
better, racism does not exist. And Gordon paints contemporary creatives
similar to himself in historic style.

13:31

And he uses a very subtle and sophisticated
way of portraying different identities

13:36

in different ways, in different clothing — with different clothing choices to really
show how our way of seeing and our way

13:44

of perceiving identity is linked in
so many racially construed points.

13:53

And in a sense what the exhibition — what I hope the exhibition does
is show the historical precedent for that using the cotton
supply chain as an example.

14:02

We hope that folks can come through the
gallery and see themselves represented, can see their stories represented,
and this can be a spark

14:09

for deeper conversation, deeper learning. That’s the exhibition in nutshell. Please like I said, do come and
physically visit, visit digitally as well.

14:19

There will be some wrap-up events. Can’t believe I’m saying that already. It feels like we just began in March.

14:27

And I will kick it over to
Julie and Julie will give — show a bit of her trail-blazing work after
which Nigel will share and we’ll chat.

14:36

Julie over to you. >> Well, thank you, Jason.

14:43

First of all, thank you for inviting me to be
part of the conversation with myself and Nigel

14:51

and trying to kind of think about style
and fashion and clothing and attire

14:58

through the perspective of
your amazing exhibition. And congratulations again on it.

15:06

Yeah, I guess I’m going to whizz through
this so that we can really open it

15:11

up to a larger conversation and
questions from the audience.

15:16

So you mentioned the last gallery in your
exhibition which is kind of devoted to the kind

15:24

of Canadian perspective and Canadian story. And I organized a show even before I was hired

15:32

at the AGO called Free Black North
and that was in 2016, I believe.

15:40

And that was, of course, the year that
Canada was celebrating the sesquicentennial.

15:46

And I can kind of had that in the kind of back
of my head when I was thinking about this show.

15:57

And that’s why the title the Free is
italicized really questioning this,

16:03

exactly what you brought
up in your opening remarks,

16:08

this notion of Canada as this refuge of freedom.

16:13

When in fact, you know, a lot of the
descendants, of the folks who came

16:18

through the Underground Railroad
experienced a lot and continuing, you know, anti-black racism and marginalization.

16:26

So I wanted to kind of highlight that is
kind of tongue in cheek, I guess in the show

16:34

but really use the tintypes,
these objects to tell a story

16:42

of kind of the individuals, you know. We don’t know a lot of their names but the kind
of subjects who too descended from that history

16:53

and were living in places like
Amherstburg and Chatham and Buxton

16:59

but who either find themselves,
you know, going to photo studios

17:04

and taking — getting their photographs taken. Or these photographs are kind of handed down.

17:11

They are circulated, you know. Michigan is right across from, you know,
Amherstburg and, you know, then through a kind

17:19

of larger American, you know, space
of circulation of these objects.

17:26

So either way, the objects end up in the Alvin
McMurdy Collection at the Ontario Archives.

17:35

And I think that for me, I kind of
wanted to highlight these histories.

17:41

And then kind of the happenstance, they’re kind
of self-fashioning, right, in the tintypes.

17:48

And of course, you point, of course, you would. You pointed that out to me when
you first visited the show.

17:56

And I kind of took a closer look at that, and
yes, you know, if these individuals are going

18:04

to a kind of itinerant photography studio
in these areas, they are going to dress up.

18:10

They are going to present themselves
the way in which they want to be seen. So I’ve always kind of been fascinated at that
little moment of realization that it isn’t only

18:27

about the objects themselves, but the way
the subjects are presenting themselves.

18:33

Next slide. And these are other objects, a
cabinet card, and a tintype again.

18:39

And I think these objects really
showcase the way that Black individuals,

18:46

Black women were presenting
themselves in studio photography.

18:53

And the tintype with the women with Niagara
Falls as a backdrop is my personal favourite

19:04

because it’s, you know, it is a backdrop,
of course, it’s not Niagara Falls.

19:09

But you know it’s a kind of quintessential,
you know, tourist, you know, idea, you know,

19:18

that is being presented that, you know,
here we are, we visited Niagara Falls and we want to commemorate that moment.

19:26

And I would say that the
studio image is the same thing, commemorating perhaps a special occasion
in this young woman’s life, but who knows?

19:34

But I do love the way they’re
kind of presenting themselves.

19:40

Next slide, please. Yeah. Then in 20 — who knows
what year that was?

19:46

2019, I think. >> 2019, I think so.

19:51

Yes, yes. >> Yes. No, I think it was 2018. I organized a show on the work of Mickalene
Thomas, queer African American artist whose kind

20:06

of signature work is kind
of highlighting Black women.

20:12

So that’s the title Femmes Noires. And of course, doing it in,
you know, a way — yes, 2018.

20:23

Great, thank you. Really giving voice and presence
and power and representation.

20:31

And of course, you know,
a kind of sartorial larger

20:37

than life, again, presence for Black women. So these collages, the collage
paintings are embedded with crystals

20:47

and you know, African fabric as a motif.

20:52

And you know, in this example,
you know, a golden Afro. So really highlighting not only trying to
kind of empower Black women in representation

21:05

and rethinking and reclaiming art historical,
the art cannon, actually that, you know,

21:17

put Black women in the shadows or, you
know, behind the White women or the servant,

21:25

you know Mickalene Thomas is thinking about,
you know, really rethinking those kinds

21:32

of associations and reclaiming Black
women, Black beauty, whatever that means.

21:39

And it was really a wonderful
kind of intervention

21:45

in the museum space to do this exhibition. So here again Mickalene photograph.

21:53

This is the painting — the photograph for
the original painting Le Demoiselles-

21:59

Nope, it’s — I’m sorry,
I’ve forgotten the title.

22:06

>> Le Déjeuner sur l’herbe. >> Yes. Thank you. Yeah. So this was the kind
of Le Déjeuner sur l’herbe.

22:16

Thank you. The photograph that was used for the painting. And again, presenting Black women riffing
on that painting taken in front of MoMA.

22:30

You know, so there are all
of these interventions that Mickalene is making in this work.

22:38

And of course, Fragments of Epic Memory, which
is, you know, a completely different exhibition

22:44

that is exploring a historical archive
of photography from the Caribbean,

22:53

from the 19th century to the 1940s.

23:02

And I mirrored the, or I combined the
historical with the modern and contemporary. So the modern and contemporary are
in conversation with the historical.

23:12

So ending on Ebony Patterson’s incredible
triptych video called Three Kings Weep.

23:22

And I think we’ll talk about that
because I think my time is done. >> Certainly.

23:27

Thank you so much, Julie. That was a phenomenal overview because what I
think is so impactful about your work is the way

23:37

that you mine historical research and
connect it with contemporary art using —

23:43

looking across different medium, whether be
installation, photography, or art itself.

23:49

And putting front and centre these identities,
whether be uncovering them from history in the way of, like the way that Mickalene’s
work really challenges those narratives.

24:01

And also showing the multiplicity
of identity in the way that Fragments has done in such a powerful way.

24:11

But we’ll chat about that very soon. But thank you so much. And of course, as someone who
studies style and fashion,

24:18

the clothing is always front and centre. Clothing as a way of crafting identity
and subverting it and challenging it

24:25

and creating it is front
and central in your work. And we’re fortunate to have you.

24:32

Thank you. Dear Nigel. Can you continue, please?

24:38

Thank you. >> Yes, of course. Thank you very much first of all
Jason for bringing us together.

24:45

And as always, your work is impeccable. It’s just beautiful.

24:51

And I’ve gone through the website for
your show and was moved in places.

24:59

And I was made aware of things in other places. It was really quite a wonderful work
that you’ve done as you’ve been doing

25:08

since I’ve had the pleasure to know you. And Julie, it is a pleasure to see
you again and to have this chance

25:13

to talk and to hear about your work. And as I was saying earlier, it’s a
pity that we couldn’t do it in person.

25:23

But on the pandémie oblige we do it how we have to. So I thought I would present some of the
work that I have coming out imminently.

25:33

So in the next few months which kind of
situates sort of my thinking on things, and this is sort of like, it’s a perspective
sort of that I think that I’ve had

25:43

for a very long time but through
these analyses that I’ve been doing,

25:49

I get to build it out a little more and
understand my own practice and see how it ties

25:59

into a larger, I would say, a
larger community of practices.

26:04

I have a book coming out with a
very good friend and colleague, a historian of 19th century
British Empire, Jessica Clark.

26:13

And this book is coming out in April, it’s called Canadian Critical
Luxury Studies, Decentring Luxury.

26:20

And I think that’s the most important part
of this project is that we want to take —

26:26

what we wanted to do when we came
together and thought about like, you know, this object of steady luxury and luxury being
this representation of power, of privilege.

26:35

And that’s something that was
really closed off to many.

26:42

We wanted to understand the functioning,
like the political functioning of luxury.

26:50

But I think what, as we gathered other
colleagues and friends in the field

26:57

in various fields, it’s an
interdisciplinary book in that sense.

27:03

I think Jessica and I we came to understand that
there is a luxury that is outside of the centre.

27:16

And so for me what was instinctual,
an instinctual understanding before,

27:24

but I think as I read through the
different interventions in the book

27:30

and we were crafting the introduction and the
epilogue I came to understand that in fact,

27:37

it’s the individual who creates luxury and it
isn’t luxury that is imposed from a metropole

27:44

or from a dominant culture
or from an elite group.

27:49

There is a luxury that is created by the
individual, and it’s a luxury that comes

27:55

out of an idiosyncratic investment. And that’s the word that I use a lot.

28:00

So it’s the person who creates
the luxury because luxury will

28:06

in fact enrich that person’s life in some way. So my work in this book, my case
study in this book is on Eaton’s

28:17

in the 1920s and the Made-In-Canada Canada campaign.

28:24

And so I looked at the ways that Eaton’s created
for its consumers a value that was beyond use

28:35

and an exchange value in their consumption
so that ordinary people could feel

28:43

like they were buying something
special, a luxury item.

28:48

And so that is really the theme
that runs through all of my work. And so when we’ll see from some of the
other pieces that I have coming out,

28:56

that I’ll always try to look at individuals that
are outside of the centre, that are operating

29:03

in the margins, whether it’s
in the 19th century.

29:09

And we’re talking about la bohème and the poor artists who are working outside of — on the
margins of a society that is becoming more

29:16

and more bourgeoisie, that is becoming
more and more middle class and more and more industrialized, and with the values

29:23

that entail the capitalist
values that that entails. And I think Jason, we can
go onto the next slide.

29:33

And so my work can be quite eclectic
in a sense because I was trained

29:39

as a 19th-century literary historian. I’m working in critical luxury.

29:45

But it’s always the margins that carry
me through these objects of study. And it’s always like my curiosity
about the margins.

29:54

And so Cardi B came onto the scene
like in 2016, and she’s changed things.

30:03

And one of the things that she’s changed
would be the expressive artistic manicure.

30:12

And so I have a piece that’s coming out in
a volume that’s entitled Dangerous Bodies.

30:20

New Global Perspectives on
Fashion and Transgression. That’s coming up later this year. It’s edited by Jacki Wilson and Royce Mahawatte.

30:29

We met at a conference in London at an
art historians conference in London.

368
00:30:36,576 –> 00:30:40,696
And they’d asked me to participate
in their volume.

30:40

And so I’d been thinking about Cardi B’s nails. And what had struck me was that, at that time,
I was out shopping, I’d be out, you know.

30:50

And I think it was maybe a Tom
Ford beauty counter or something.

30:55

And then I looked, and I was like,
all of the girls have these nails. And these nails were like prior
to this not well regarded, right?

31:05

And so I wanted to see, I wanted
to examine like, well, is this — and at the time I was thinking, you
know, through Pierre Bourdieu

31:14

and so is this a habit has changed of the
mainstream society or is this Black style

31:26

as costume and what was going on here? And what is the value of a manicure?

31:32

And so when I started to examine salon culture
and then it spread into mainstream culture,

31:43

U.S. I didn’t want to say that, I
say Black American salon culture.

31:49

I came to understand that the
manicure was not just a manicure.

31:55

So the salon was a space where
women could build relationships.

32:03

It was an opportunity for self-care. And so the manicure itself
was not just adornment.

32:14

There was a value that came outside of
that, and that becomes that surplus value

32:20

that I’m always looking for, that indicates
to me that it is a luxurious experience.

32:27

And so the study that I did on Cardi’s
manicure, it started from that perspective.

32:36

And then I questioned, well, what happens now
when this and in specific, luxurious experience

32:46

in Black culture, what happens as
it expands out into a wider field?

32:54

And obviously, I think obviously, I
found that something is lost from that.

33:02

And so that what was signalled to me,
and it’s another sort of theme that runs

33:09

through the things I do is that while there may
be an opening up of space for these expressions

33:17

that come from outside of the mainstream,
there’s still change that needs to happen

33:26

in terms of the structures of power. And so that the introduction of
like this excessive style that comes

33:42

out of Black women’s experience into the wider
culture does not come with a full-on acceptance

33:56

of this subjectivity, I would say. I think we can move on to the next slide.

34:07

And I have another article
coming out later this year. This one is in a volume that’s edited by the
fashion scholars Vicki Karaminas, Adam Geczy,

34:17

and Pamela Church Gibson, and the volume
is called Fashionable Masculinities, Queers, Pimp Daddies, and Lumbersexuals.

34:28

And this is a study that had been on my mind. This is something that had
been on my mind for a while.

34:33

And Jason helped me with this,
with the archival research. He gathered a lot of the images
that I used in this analysis.

34:44

And I’ve chosen this one because
again, as I talk about the difference

34:51

between these luxurious expressions when they
happen within, I guess, an originary culture.

35:03

And then when they’re adopted or
adapted by a wider culture, there is —

35:09

for me, there’s always something, or at least
in the things that I’ve been studying thus far, it feels to me that there’s always
been something that’s been lost.

35:16

So Puff Daddy is I think a bit of
a controversial figure in hip hop.

35:24

And so his emergence in the 1990s. There’s a shift I think from, and we’ve
read about the problems with this movement

35:35

from like a gold aesthetic symbolizing,
some kind of like hip hop authenticity

35:42

to this platinum aesthetic where that is tied

35:49

to like neoliberal ideas,
to the mobile masculinity.

35:55

And then, which sort of ends with
like the idea that Puff Daddy has sold

36:03

out to mainstream culture at that time, right? And these are the tensions that
play sort of in his aesthetic.

36:10

So I looked — when I thought about Puff
Daddy and I gathered all these images that Jason had collected for me
and I was going through them.

36:16

It was his shine that like was the most problem,
the shine of his materials, of his furs,

36:22

of his leathers, of his skin, of the sequins,
and the diamonds, the bling, all of that.

36:28

That was really quite significant to me. And that shine is in fact
an aspect of Black style.

36:37

And so when I looked at his
videos and I compared them to some of these mainstream images, the
shine was prevalent in both,

36:46

but I think the shine expressed
different things. And so that, whereas in a video like, and
there’s a moment in this case study where I look

36:57

at Mo Money Mo Problems, that video. And there’s these moments in the video when Puff
Daddy is sort of outside of time, Puff Daddy

37:05

and Mase, and they’re floating
around in this space. It’s a space beyond what seems to me,
White supremacy because there’s a story.

37:13

The storyline in it is the storyline of
White supremacy with the White golfer and Puff Daddy playing a
figure like — what’s his name?

37:25

Golfer, Tiger Woods, playing off
of a figure like Tiger Woods.

37:30

But then in these outside spaces where the shine
is full-on, it’s bright-coloured suits covered

37:39

in plastic overlay and shiny watches
and things, there’s this playfulness.

37:44

And that’s also something, there’s this
pleasure that is really quite integral,

37:50

I think to Black style, to
Black culture, and to luxury. And then I would say that, and
I’ve been talking a lot, I know.

37:57

I’ll close it off by saying, but then what
happens, when it goes into the mainstream into this Vogue feature, for example, is
that the shine changes and there’s more

38:11

of a question of objectification that happens. And so what I had concluded in that piece is

38:17

that Puff Daddy becomes a
penis in furs emphasizing his object,

38:23

like his status as an object, of the gaze. And I’ll stop there. Thank you for keeping me in line, Jason.

38:31

>> No, no problem, Nigel. Thank you so much. And I thought probably we could chat more
about the Tissot image in relation to —

38:37

>> Yeah, Yeah, exactly. Thank you. >> Your focus, I think on decentering
notions of luxury and what you said

38:46

so articulately idiosyncratic,
what was the other word?

38:51

Frameworks or what? >> Investment, investment. >> Investments, idiosyncratic investments.

38:57

I think it’s so important to this framing of
the self of using clothing and using objects

39:06

to be able to create that sense
of identity and who we are, and we’ll chat about that in relation to — >> Yes.

39:11

>> — what, you know, in the ways that even
when you — with your Cardi image how, you know,

39:17

she was using different versions of luxurious
objects at a specific time in her life to create an image and how that
perception will shift based

39:25

on who’s using those objects and how — >> Exactly. >> — that’s even connected to
the Transatlantic Slave Trade

39:32

in the cotton exhibition
that we’re chatting about. Julie, I want to go back to Free Black North.

39:40

And as you said, the exhibition was
really formative in my understanding,

39:47

I think of what historical research
could do, I think in terms of how —

39:54

I think we can look at objects from
a perspective of not just their place within history, but their
place within our presence.

40:01

And as you know, fashion is always my lens. So I walked in there and immediately it was
the clothing, it was the way that the —

40:08

even that beautiful image of — I
can bring it up so that we can look at that instead of hearing me blabble.

40:15

But it was just the way that the folks who were
in those images, in the way that they chose

40:22

to portray themselves, their
sureness, their confidence.

40:28

And I was so deeply struck, I think, by
the ways in which the exhibition did that.

40:36

And I’m wondering — and of
course, the archives McCurdy fonds that you activated in the exhibition.

40:45

I also looked at for the — for
History Is Rarely Black or White.

40:52

And I’m wondering what — you know,
like five years on now — five years?

40:58

About five years on now, what
were your takeaways from the show, this being your first exhibition at the AGO?

41:05

I mean, I remember the place just being
filled with people who look like us.

41:12

Looking at the images, there being this
murmur, this chatter, this excited engagement

41:17

with the object, which is
very similar to what I saw in Femmes Noires, and most
recently in Fragments.

41:25

So I mean, as a curator yourself,
like what were your takeaways from just seeing the audience interact with
the objects, and and how you used them?

41:35

>> Yeah, I mean, you do a lot of
reflecting, you know, post exhibition.

41:41

And of course, during pandemics you
— that also allows for a moment to,

41:48

kind of, reflect on your practice. And I think I’ve been doing a lot of that.

41:54

When I was thinking about this talk, I was
thinking that actually there is a little bit

42:01

of a — there is some connective tissue
in terms of like, a subliminal interest

42:12

in attire style, fashion, textile.

42:19

My very — one of my earliest shows
was a quilt show that I did at —

42:25

I mounted at the National Film Board. It wasn’t even a — you know,
it wasn’t a proper gallery.

42:30

But I gathered quilts from, you know, Buxton
and Nova Scotia, and just telling the story of,

42:39

you know, how those quilts were used and
passed down through generations and, you know,

42:46

the kind of legacy of quilt making, of you
know, stitching together, you know, histories.

42:52

And then when I think about the kinds
of shows I’ve done, front and centre,

42:58

though maybe subliminal, there is this
notion of self-presentation through clothing.

43:09

And so I was thinking about a small show I did
that someone reminded me about the other day

43:18

on Teenie Harris, a photographer, Black
photographer that lived in Philadelphia,

43:23

is shooting kind of the local communities,
local Black communities in the ’40s.

43:32

So imagine the fashion, ’30s, ’40s, ’50s, right. And it is all about that.

43:38

It is all about, you know, women in very fly
suits and men in their, you know, Stacy Adams

43:45

and hats and really, really
again — and he had a studio.

43:51

Going into the studio, getting themselves, you
know, photographed etc., at a time that was

43:56

of course fraught with racial
tension in a place like Philadelphia. And then fast forward to Free Black North.

44:06

So that association, I think, with who
the subjects are and how they’re trying

44:14

to present themselves and using
clothing as a kind of weapon.

44:20

And because I have — you know, I come
through photography, I think about people —

44:27

photographers like Gordon Parks, but
I also think about Frederick Douglass when I just did a short talk about
him at the Power Plant on Sunday.

44:38

And you know, the reason that he was the most
photographed American of the 19th century —

44:46

not Black American, American, because he was
so conscious about how one could use the medium

44:55

to intervene and try to dismantle
all of the, you know,

45:03

awful ways in which Black people
have been represented, right?

45:09

In terrible, terrible ways. And so he literally talks about
using the medium as a weapon.

45:18

And so when I go back to the objects in
Free Black North, and I think about that —

45:26

the engagement of the audience with these
objects, I think there was a lot of wonder.

45:34

You know, wonder at who these subjects were,
their histories, the kind of hidden history

45:43

of photography and, you know,
Black subjects in photography. So I think that really percolated in a way.

45:52

It was a tiny show as you know, but
I think it had quite a big impact.

45:59

Because of all of these elements. Then at the time, and you
know when you’re curating,

46:06

you don’t realize how many different tentacles,
you know, that you’ve kind of thrown out there

46:15

and what — you know, what’s
going to stick actually. And the depth of the objects and their, you
know, resonance, I guess with a larger audience?

46:27

I hope that answers your question. >> Absolutely. I think what’s — I think why the notion
of clothing and style so often comes

46:36

up in your work, and at least for me anyways is
that — especially for marginalized identities,

46:42

clothing is not a benign
thing that’s interacted with.

46:47

It always has an extra layer that’s
attached to one’s intersectional identity.

46:54

Whether it’s armour, as exploration, you
know, as this way of encouraging oneself. So to look at Blackness, to look at the ways
that different people go through the world,

47:05

clothing and style always comes into that,
because it’s just a way of using it as a tool.

47:11

Nigel, in terms of this, I’m just looking
at these images, and I’m struck again by your phrase — you’re
going to have to remind me.

47:20

Idiosyncratic innovation? >> Investment. >> Investment, thank you, investment.

47:27

And I’m so struck by that
thought in these images, because you just think of
the history of these folks.

47:34

>> Absolutely. >> And what their realities would have
been like before landing in Canada,

47:40

and the investment in themselves
in this clothing. You know, the fact that it’s their own clothing.

47:47

It’s too perfectly tailored
to their bodies, and fits — in terms of the corsetry and the shoulders. >> Yes.

47:52

>> And you know, they have the clothes in too —
a natural way for it to be something that’s just

47:58

in the photographer’s studio
that they’re wearing. And I wonder if you could just speak a
little bit about the idiosyncratic investment

48:06

in the way that in a sense, do you see —
kind of perceive that in these images a bit? >> Absolutely.

48:11

It absolutely is. >> — a sense of luxury, right, before — >> Totally. I think for a couple of reasons, right?

48:20

I mean one of them is the material reasons. I think these are fine materials,
I think there are furs,

48:26

there are pleats, there are pleated fabrics. And these are fine materials, right?

48:33

And in that sense, yes, these are, I think
bonafide luxuries, you can call them that.

48:38

But like to go back to something that
Julie had said, like when she was talking about Frederick Douglass and that the — I think
photography was a weapon that he could use,

48:49

I think style in that sense is like
the bullet that you — you know, right? And so the style that — so these
clothes, they can be standard, right?

49:03

I mean, so these are clothes that would have
been worn by other men and women at the time.

49:10

But they mean something different. And what you’re getting at Jason, I think it
means something different on a Black body.

49:16

So the photo — one of the photos
that we saw was the man standing

49:22

in the white trousers and
the jacket and waistcoat. >> Yes.

49:28

>> And yes, there it is. And like, you know, I thought that
like — I mean white is such a —

49:33

you know, it brought me back to part of my
argument about Puff Daddy and that white fur.

49:38

White is the, you know, the most
delicate of colours in that sense, right?

49:43

That is the colour of idle living, right?

49:48

It’s not a — and Black bodies were not idle
bodies, were not perceived as idle bodies.

49:54

That changes the meaning of white
trousers on this body, you know?

50:00

And that’s that idiosyncratic investment. And so for me, there’s something subversive. There was a choice, you know.

50:06

And even if the choice isn’t there, the
investment happens in the use of that.

50:12

Like if that was what it happened to have,
that it would happen to have in the studio, to put it on is to feel a certain way is
to, is to see — is to be different, right?

50:25

And so luxury — one of the other sort
of undercurrents of my thinking is that luxury always has to
be subversive in some sense.

50:33

Luxury does not answer to ideology.

50:38

And so this outfit, these outfits on
these people to me are subversive.

50:46

Even if they are the fashions of the
day, of the time on these bodies.

50:51

There was some — there was a method
of subversion in there somewhere.

50:56

>> Absolutely. Speaking of — yes? >> Sorry, I just wanted to pick up
because it’s such a brilliant thought.

51:03

I think we can talk about this forever actually,
at least for a longer time that we have lauded

51:10

because in my research for the
quick talk I did on Sunday,

51:15

I came across a South Carolina
slave code that is related to dress.

51:21

So this idea of subversion is fascinating
because basically under the code,

51:30

slaves were not allowed to wear fine clothes. So, you know, you would wear the roughest kind
of so-called Negro cloths, whatever that is.

51:40

So the fact that you then contest
that, as you said Nigel, by wearing —

51:48

by dressing yourself in the finest is
exactly that, kind of, you know, thoughtful,

51:54

intentional dressing, which I
find really, really fascinating. I mean it’s something that I wish I could write
about more, but yeah, I think that it is what —

52:07

and who knows where the clothing
is actually coming from? I mean in, you know, some West African studios,

52:15

the clothing might be supplied
by the photographer. But it is that kind of intentional act that
I think disrupts the power dynamic, right?

52:25

In — >> Yes, absolutely. And in our last session we chatted
quite a bit about the whole notion

52:31

of where the clothing could come from. And from a fashion historical perspective. We can think of folks like Elizabeth Keckley,
Mary Todd Lincoln’s dressmaker, who, you know,

52:43

used her own dressmaking skills to, you know,
to buy herself out of slavery, enslavement,

52:51

as well as, you know, to
therefore then create a business, so she had, you know, wealthy clientele.

52:58

But in terms of just looking at, you know,
the way that the folks are presented, and how they’re in the clothing
and how, in a sense,

53:05

many of these garments predate our
notion of ready to wear pieces. Where you can just pick something
that’s, you know, on a rack.

53:12

And even like you’re seeing
in West African clothing, how it’s cut completely differently to the body.

53:20

Its relationship to shape
is completely different. So the fact that, you know,
you can’t necessarily do

53:26

that with tailoring, especially
in the late 1800s. So just — and how this brings up a
whole number of questions as to well,

53:35

where do these skill sets come from? Were they passed down? Were they taught in communities?

53:41

Was there a quote on quote local market? Like a local Black economy that supported
the use of these skills and trade?

53:54

But so much of this that we don’t know
that I think it’s important to find out and I think to research more. >> Absolutely.

54:00

>> — on that point you just
made about the Negro cloth, and how the use of this clothing then is this
— you know, this investment, this subversion.

54:13

And Nigel again, critically speaking to this
notion of luxury, because this brings us

54:19

to Damian Joel’s relation in the gallery. Where what Damian has done so
brilliantly, is use the trappings of luxury,

54:28

as we know from a fashion business perspective,
editorial styling, beautiful fabrics.

54:36

Using cinematographic ways of portraying the
collection in this beautifully shot film,

54:46

with gorgeous vistas, and that’s
even he’s presented these — what he’s going to call them —

54:52

it’s not a collection, it’s a story
because it’s telling a wider narrative. And these are not actually garments that are
available for commercial sale in the store.

55:00

They can be ordered almost like a couture
garment, so they can be made to order.

55:06

But Damian really wants to share
a wider social narrative here.

55:11

And what to me is I think so telling about both
of your comments recently is that, you know,

55:18

Damian is now using these
trappings that we’re chatting about. Like this — the ways that the garments and how
they fit, and you know, whether they’re pleated

55:27

and the specific things he’s using. But he is going against the grain. These are deadstock fabrics,
and they’re all made himself.

55:36

And he’s speaking to, you know, the way that
Julie you’re saying with the Negro cloth, how the Gullah Geechee had to use
what they were given, thrust on them.

55:46

You know, the first thing that happens to you
when you’re off a slave ship is that, you know, every marker of your identity is ripped
apart and you’re now just a cog,

55:55

the number in a larger supply chain. And how then they– they then
still asserted their identity,

56:03

they still in the little things — again,
Nigel, coming back to your comments about this, like idiosyncratic investment,
they still found a way to create

56:11

that personal luxury in themselves. And I bring up Damian’s garments because I’m
wondering if we could just chat how in a way,

56:20

from my perspective anyways, the
garments speak so strong to those topics?

56:25

Nigel, perhaps you can kick us off? >> Yeah, you know, I — when I was on the
website for your show, and then I saw the video

56:35

and I listened to the interview
with the designer, Damian. There was something that he said that struck me.

56:42

And he said — when he was talking about
putting together the film, the fashion film,

56:49

and he said, “I don’t call them models.” So the people that he used. “I don’t call them models, they are — ” >> His muses, his tribe, yes.

56:57

>> Tribe but they were like
living recipients of an archive.

57:04

Something along those lines anyways, but
there were something about being archives, they weren’t models, models, because
models would take away agency.

57:11

Models, that term, right and
likened that to industry, right. And so he wanted to differentiate from that.

57:18

And again, it’s that same — that the body
in these outfits is what’s making the meaning

57:26

or drawing out the meaning, right? And so materially, I think, you know, as you
said, we’re very much in a luxury production,

57:35

in a traditional conventional luxury production. In terms of the bespoke, they
are ordered, made to measure.

57:44

But what’s more with these
garments and with this practice,

57:55

is that the wearer is made central to it.

58:01

And it’s the wearer who creates meaning through
experience, right, I think he said in the video,

58:07

right, that, you know, there was
the attachment to land through — you know, these people were
barefooted and feeling the land

58:15

under them, feeling the air and the water. So there’s the — you know, it’s the
lived experience that becomes luxurious,

58:24

more than even I think the material
aspects of the making of the garments.

58:33

>> And so much of luxury and fashion is this
Western Eurocentric way of looking elsewhere

58:41

for inspiration, and then bringing it back and
then creating this idea of what is construed

58:46

as a luxurious garment or a luxurious object. And so what Damian is doing here,
too, is placing that front and centre

58:55

but in direct collaboration
with the Gullah Geechee Nation. >> Yes. >> And you know, you’re seeing — you’re
not just looking at beautifully made pieces,

59:02

you’re also looking at their history,
their past and their presence. On the far left, you’ve got rice,

59:08

you’ve got Indigo in the middle,
and then you’ve got cotton. Three central crops that are so important
to Gullah Geechee life, past and present.

59:16

And you know, with this Moko Jumbie
[assumed spelling] outfit on the left, its connections to Yoruban spirituality,
with Jordan river in the middle,

59:26

this whole notion of crossing the Jordan. Whether that be the Jordan River being referred to as the Atlantic and, you
know, their journey over.

59:33

But of course, the Jordan River, the way that
it was referred to in the Underground Railroad as this, you know, way of getting into
freedom, kind of being that place.

59:42

And with — it’s a little hard to see in this
slide, but in Green Sally Up on the far right,

59:49

you know, Damian has left the
back open and exposed to speak to the backbreaking labour that
was involved making cotton.

59:57

And with Jordan River too in the middle,
how like the Gullah Geechee now are fighting for land rights, as well as to take care of the
eroding coastline of the southern United States.

1:00:10

And yet, you know, as you’re
saying about the sense of luxury,

1:00:15

we can speak about all these things
and still have it be a garment that is quote on quote “luxurious.”

1:00:21

Like luxury and social impact and historical
connection are not diametrically opposed.

1:00:28

You know? And this whole notion of
luxury being the identity itself. And, you know, Julie I see that so much true
in the Mickalene’s exhibition to be honest.

1:00:38

In the way that — Nigel with shine. My word, like, so much of her pieces are
glistening and glittery, and, you know embossed.

1:00:48

And how much so that — you know
she’s really troubling this like,

1:00:53

sense of agency, and also
luxury in that as well. >> Oh, yeah, I mean I think that is — even as
she grows as an artist, I see her associations

1:01:06

with Gucci, and you know, Dior and,
you know, making specific work for —

1:01:14

you know, those high fashion houses, you know,
and how she — while she’s doing that she is,

1:01:23

you know, a big Black woman,
a big Black queer woman. >> Big Black queer woman, yeah. >> You know, what I mean?

1:01:28

Who is inserting herself within that
industry, within that particular fashion house.

1:01:36

And I see it always as a disruption. And I think that the — her large-scale
paintings with the rhinestones —

1:01:44

I mean she’s been doing that for a while, even
before it was kind of fashionable, you know?

1:01:49

She was asserting Black women,
and beauty, and definitely luxury.

1:01:57

It’s you know — and I think
it’s so complicated, you know.

1:02:06

On the one hand I think people
sometimes think of it as a, kind of, you know, assimilation politics, you know.

1:02:13

That one wants to kind of ascribe to
owning an Hermes bag, or, you know,

1:02:21

being on the cover of Vogue or whatever. But I think that it’s — as
Nigel is doing in his work,

1:02:28

and yours as well, Jason, it’s to trouble that. To be really — to be able to kind of dig a
little bit deeper and be critical about the ways

1:02:38

in which we are thinking about all of
it, style, luxury, self-possession.

1:02:45

Because I think it’s at where
one is coming from.

1:02:52

You know, I was for some reason
yesterday, listening to a lot of Jay-Z. It was like a compilation of Jay-Z.

1:03:00

And if you listen really closely
to Jay-Z, it is all about —

1:03:06

you know, I grew up in Marcy
Projects, and now I’m driving a — I don’t know, Lamborghini and in the
middle, I was — you know, it’s that —

1:03:14

it’s like a social history of, you know,
that movement but really about style

1:03:22

and definitely about uber luxury. So yeah, I think that that’s exactly
what Mickalene and others have been —

1:03:35

are doing in their work,
but particularly Mickalene. It’s definitely a statement and Ebony.

1:03:42

>> I think this — even, I was just going
to bring us back to this for one second.

1:03:48

This notion of trajectory, and you know,
this understanding where we’re coming from is

1:03:54

so central to the exhibitions narrative
and to what we’re chatting about. Because there would — you know,
this, as we’ve just previously said,

1:04:03

this use of style as a tool specifically
to Black and marginalized people, you know,

1:04:09

is in conversation with, or is in opposition
to rather, the notion of Blackness as inhumane,

1:04:20

as an economic cog within
the transatlantic slave trade. As something to be policed and controlled.

1:04:26

And this is — reason why we focussed
on the 1800s for the exhibition is that,

1:04:32

historically it’s a time where you really see — yes, slavery was happening
just before, late 1700s.

1:04:38

But into the 1800s is when it’s not only the
largest number of, you know, enslaved Africans

1:04:43

or Africans who are enslaved moved
across the ocean, through Empire, but it’s when you really see this collusion

1:04:50

of the slave trade commerce and
this global economic system.

1:04:55

That then makes this way of
seeing Blackness systemic. Because it now joins this capitalist interest
that connects with industrialization.

1:05:06

You’re seeing the mills in the UK then
having to change and adapt to be able

1:05:13

to process the raw bales of
cotton that are coming in. You’re seeing folks leaving, you know,
the rural areas and working in factories

1:05:24

to be able to process the cotton. Child labour, the use of coal that’s being
taken from the environment in harmful ways,

1:05:32

so that it can power these factories. And then you see where wealth
is then being concentrated. And meanwhile, this is creating
obviously huge political change,

1:05:45

both in Canada and in the American South. You’re looking at, you know, the
American Civil War, and so forth.

1:05:50

And cotton is a huge part of these things. And so many ways of seeing
never change over time.

1:05:58

In fact, they’ve just become more entrenched. So therefore then, that’s what then
connects us to the use of these tintypes.

1:06:06

Of — sorry, the use of clothing and photography
in a way of challenging what has come before.

1:06:12

Mickalene’s own work of challenging — when
she’s reaching back forth in art history, but as well of challenging what Blackness is.

1:06:20

And Nigel, as you so brilliantly said in
your work, in terms of how then we can still

1:06:27

in the contemporary moment — how you mentioned
like this whole notion of yes, people will —

1:06:33

how when you’re at the Tom Ford
counter and the use of the nails and how in a sense they’re these trappings
of Blackness and from Latinx communities,

1:06:40

but yet — so it’s taken away from its
core, and the way that it was used then.

1:06:46

And how so often people wanted a sense of
trappings of the swaggers, you say, the style,

1:06:53

but you know, they don’t want, you know,
what comes at you with the Black identity. And I’ll move us on quickly
to the last question,

1:07:01

which is to me what — and
I’ll let you both speak. It’s just to me this is what Gordon Shadrach’s
portraits in the exhibition so brilliantly do.

1:07:11

If you look at the painting on the far left
over here, and you look at the painting

1:07:16

on the far right, it’s the same
person that Gordon is portraying.

1:07:21

Elicser Elliot, who’s a well-known
Toronto artist, who also works in graffiti

1:07:29

as well as painting in different ways. And he’s portrayed in one and you
know, the clothing of his metier.

1:07:38

And he’s got his mask, he’s
got more urban clothing. And then in the other one, you’re seeing him
dressed, you know, in a more historic style

1:07:46

that could not — that is quite similar
to what you were seeing in the tintypes. Or as you mentioned, Frederick
Douglass, how he would be portrayed.

1:07:56

And what I love about this juxtaposition
is that you’re looking at the ways that — how he’s portrayed might affect the
way that we perceive the same person.

1:08:05

And Gordon is taking some — you know, he’s
taken some liberties with Elicser’s skin,

1:08:12

and his hair, and how he’s portrayed him. But in the ways that, you know, all Black men
know that depending on how you portray yourself,

1:08:22

how that will also affect how you’re
perceived and relation to safety. So what I love about both your works
— and Julie this is where you come in,

1:08:33

how your exhibitions have — specifically
here I’m using one of the archival images

1:08:40

from the Montgomery collection in Fragments,
as well as we three kings’ installation

1:08:46

that made me cry the first time, I saw it. And I’ve seen it now four times in Fragments.

1:08:53

The way that you challenge this notion of what
is a hegemonic way of looking at Blackness?

1:09:01

Of like this idea that the Caribbean diaspora
looks like this, or Blackness looks like this.

1:09:08

And Nigel too, just here how you
are, you know, juxtaposing —

1:09:13

I’ll let you speak to the
Tissot painting but in a sense, I just love the juxtaposition of these images.

1:09:18

You know, you’ve got Annie
Leibowitz, who is the photographer of these luxurious sittings for Vogue.

1:09:25

And you think of the fact that Puffy and
Kate Moss are in Paris for the couture shows

1:09:32

and they’re wearing luxurious clothing and
it’s a — this is a highly constructed shot. And then you’ve got the Tissot painting
that could not symbolize more similar things

1:09:42

of masculinity in the patriarchy, and
clothing, and what clothing meant to that epoch

1:09:48

in relation to modernity and change. So Nigel, perhaps you can
kick this last part off.

1:09:55

Just in terms of maybe chatting about the
juxtaposition of these images and how it ties into a sense of looking at
— centring these notions.

1:10:04

>> You know, it’s only as you said
it, that I was like, oh, you know? Like there is like a real
construction in both of these images.

1:10:13

The construction of power that happens in
the body department, in the materials used

1:10:23

to express elegance, and
power, and place in society.

1:10:31

I used this image because
there’s another project — the Tissot image that I’ve been invited
on tying together art and fashion.

1:10:41

And it’s really at its like rudimentary stages. And it speaks a lot to the work that your
exhibition is doing and what I’m questioning,

1:10:53

what I want to question is by the Paris
capital of fashion in the 19th century,

1:11:03

by looking at well, what
made it a capital of fashion? Where are these materials coming from?

1:11:08

Who was making these materials? And so — and this image has always struck me.

1:11:13

It’s something that I’ve
always wanted to work on.

1:11:19

So I put it in there because it’s going to force
me to have to think about it and I’m thinking

1:11:33

about the wood, and I’m wondering, is the — you
know, if that — is that wood native to France?

1:11:40

Or is it coming from Central
America or from the Caribbean?

1:11:46

Like the top hats, we know, you know,
have I think a long colonial history.

1:11:53

But by this point, this is like
1865, I think they’d already

1:12:03

like decimated beaver populations. So we’ve moved on to silk, right?

1:12:10

>> Which has connections to Canada, of course. >> Exactly.

1:12:16

Right? And so it’s those kinds of stories
that I’m looking to tell through art.

1:12:25

But it’s — but as you said, it’s
really quite striking the differences

1:12:33

and the similarities in these two. And I don’t know what the link is.

1:12:40

Whether it is in department, in the
presentation of the body, or it’s in the comfort

1:12:50

of wearing exceptional clothing, you know? But there is something that is
similar nevertheless to the merits,

1:12:59

I think I could do a deeper dive. >> Because I mean, of course, Baudelaire
and his push for artists to get out there

1:13:09

and observe these subtle shifts in fashion, and
what that meant to someone’s station in life,

1:13:14

and what that meant to —
what was the cultural change.

1:13:20

And here are obviously quite wealthy
men, styled and presented in ways

1:13:26

that represent respectability
and their station in life.

1:13:31

And we can think of the spaces of
— on even how this is gendered. Like what is considered a
gendered space of femininity?

1:13:39

What is considered a space of masculinity? The use of clothing to do that. And Tissot’s then portrayal of this in
a sense to immortalize this for time.

1:13:50

And then Sean over here, and Kate Moss,
and the clothing, and the couture. And as you were saying, how — what he was
using to kind of create this image and Julie,

1:14:02

as you were saying with Jay-Z, how —
as you listen to his music, how he’s —

1:14:08

you know, he’s giving you this trajectory of
his life, and how it’s these markers of luxury

1:14:15

that are a point of showing
that progression, so to speak.

1:14:23

Like that, not just like to have things but
to show the come up, as we say, you know?

1:14:29

The way of transcending and
liberating oneself from an identity

1:14:36

that was quite restricted
by systemic oppression.

1:14:41

>> There’s something though,
that as we compare these men, it makes me think of the We Three Lings.

1:14:47

And that in the Tissot image,
I don’t know that we have — I think we have like, the
Le juste mesure of — so things are just right in that image, right?

1:14:53

And so those — it is not a portrait. I think from, I think our sensitive eyes, it’s a
portrait of excess, but I don’t know that they, the sitters, view themselves as excessive. I’m not sure yet if they see
themselves as excessive in the same way

1:14:59

that Puff Daddy is presenting
an aesthetic of excess. And that the way that We Three Kings
is, again an aesthetic of excess. It’s pushing beyond what — >> And it’s this stripping
of that excess actually.

1:15:04

Because by the end of the video — they
start the video Julie, if I’m not mistaken,

1:15:10

they start the video and then it’s in reverse? >> Yeah, it’s Three Kings Weep is the title.

1:15:16

>> Okay. >> Right. >> Okay. >> Yeah, and they start semi-dressed right?

1:15:23

And then they’re dressing themselves so they’re
actually armouring, protecting, putting on.

1:15:31

By the time — by the end of the video,
they’ve kind of crowned themselves either

1:15:37

with sunglasses, a bandana, or a hat. And I’ve always kind of seen this triptych,
you know, it’s an altarpiece really,

1:15:49

with the fact that this is
about extracted labour.

1:15:56

If I think about your exhibition,
Jason, the production of cotton,

1:16:02

which is produced into glamourous, you know,
excessive clothing that they are putting

1:16:10

on to armour themselves, to protect themselves. And the fact that they add the bling,
all of the jewellery, the earrings,

1:16:18

the kind of slave cuff even, are all
connected to extraction, slave trade, labour.

1:16:30

And so I see it less — you know, a lot
of people look at it and say, oh, it’s — you know, it’s about bling, and it’s
about, you know, popular culture.

1:16:38

No, it’s — and the fact that they are weeping, they are weeping because they
are tied to those histories.

1:16:46

And I think that’s why it’s
really important for Ebony that this work is presented
in a place of reverence.

1:16:53

So that you are forced to
sit in a darkened space, and contemplate, and reflect on these histories.

1:17:04

On the wounds that they are covering
up, on the — you know, on the — >> They’re pulling off that armour, right? >> Yeah, exactly.

1:17:10

>> They literally are removing that armour,
and then putting it back on in reverse. >> Yeah. >> It’s those histories, that
pain that is tied to this —

1:17:18

you know, everything that we’re chatting about
today, that clothing enables, it puts a —

1:17:25

but also sometimes this — it
can also be a trap, you know. It can also be like this,
because there’s this idea of —

1:17:31

>> It’s a performance as well. >> — what you should look like right? >> Yeah, I think it’s a performance. A performance of agency, subjectivity.

1:17:42

You know, the — what do they call,
the Sapeurs in — is it Congo?

1:17:49

You know, men who — right, dress up. I mean they have little means
but they hyper-dress.

1:17:58

Like I mean, this is a — the kind of
epitome of — they throw everything into it.

1:18:03

You know, the couture, you know, the — >> Yes, like hyper dandy, yes. >> Dapper, bespoke.

1:18:11

I think that’s what it is. It’s a performance of their identities,
of aspiration, of the things they see

1:18:21

in magazines that, you know, they may not
have access to, but then they created. I think that’s the height of
creativity and a kind of longing, and —

1:18:31

okay, I’ve forgotten the
phrase too, idiosyncratic — >> Investment. >> — investment.

1:18:38

>> Investment, right. [ Laughter ] >> Yes, yes, yes. If there’s ever a hashtag for it —

1:18:44

>> Yes. [ Laughter ] >> Yes, yes. trademark that. Yeah, that’s copyrighted.

1:18:50

Yes. Oh, we could chat for much longer.

1:18:56

>> This is wonderful. >> I want to respect our time. We’ve got five minutes. I see two questions in the box.

1:19:01

So I’m just going to refer to them
quickly and I’ll wrap this up. Michelle would like to know Nigel; will your
book be available for purchase in Canada?

1:19:09

>> Yes, yes, it’s on amazon.ca.

1:19:16

It will be on amazon.ca or it
is on there I think for presale. And it is coming out from Intellect but I think
it will be also available internationally.

1:19:26

Like you can buy it. >> Okay. Fantastic. Fantastic. Fantastic. Looking very much forward to that.

1:19:33

both for my own studies as,
as well as just in general. Corey would like to know — although I think
we’ve touched on this question in terms

1:19:42

of answering it but Corey mentions
that we’ve all touched on this topic,

1:19:48

but she’s or they’re hoping that we
might say some more about strategies

1:19:53

that Black artists used to create
clothes and luxury in the context of dominant white culture,
and anti-Black racism?

1:20:01

And I believe what we were talking about in terms of
Mickalene’s use of shine and the subversion

1:20:06

of that, and with Ebony’s work, and Gordon,
and as well as Damon in the way that clothing

1:20:15

and aesthetics becomes this way of
pushing against this hegemonic ideal,

1:20:21

but perhaps you can both maybe
put into sense in that regard?

1:20:27

>> Do you want to start, Julie? >> I think we’ve more or less
covered a lot of the ground.

1:20:36

I’m not sure I have anything else to add. Nigel? >> Yeah, I would like to add, like in terms of
like excess, and like, as we were looking —

1:20:45

because I haven’t seen that triptych and
it’s at the AGO, I’m coming to see it like —

1:20:51

>> Hopefully soon we’ll see it. >> Okay. >> Julie, is it this weekend? >> February 21st. >> Okay.

1:20:56

>> Okay, cool. Cool. So I will be there, I need to see it. But this aesthetic of excess, right, and I think
one of the other things that I try to explore

1:21:08

with excess is that it isn’t necessarily a
mode of appropriation, or there is a change

1:21:17

of meaning that happens with excess. And excess, like you know, if you think about
the lowlifes in the ’80s, that hip hop —

1:21:27

or that they were a gang that would
go in and would boost in the store. They’d take all the Polo off the racks
and pile them out one on top of the other,

1:21:35

on top of the other, on top of the other, right? And so in this aesthetic of excess, you’re also
pushing back against the meaning of luxury,

1:21:46

against the — like it doesn’t mean
what you’re telling me it means. Like look, because I’m putting on
four, five, six layers of something

1:21:55

and it’s not changing my status inside. I’m still looked at in the same way.

1:22:02

So it’s — what I think that kind of aesthetic, that aesthetic strategy does is it undermines
the hegemonic meanings that are attached

1:22:15

to these objects that we call luxury. >> Beautifully said.

1:22:21

And of course, as is topical, nobody
for me more embodies that recently

1:22:27

than our dearly departed André Leon Talley. In the ways that — I mean he
in his very identity, in his —

1:22:36

the way he moves through the world used excess
as this way of creating for himself a space

1:22:41

that was uniquely his and inspire
so many like myself and us. And you know — >> And as a way of protecting himself.

1:22:47

>> — probably in that spirit, we should
dedicate this chat to him and his memory. >> Absolutely. >> I cannot thank you both enough for this chat.

1:22:56

One of the joys of putting these things together
is that I get to speak with people I admire and love, and whose work I am so impacted by.

1:23:04

And I’m very, very grateful that
we’ve been able to chat together. So this recording will be available
online for folks to revisit,

1:23:14

and please check back in with the Agnes. We will have some in-person events hopefully,
knock wood, in March to close the show.

1:23:23

Please follow Nigel’s book that will
be out in spring and make your way —

1:23:28

if you’re in Toronto or in Ontario
rather to the AGO before February 20th?

1:23:35

>> Twenty first. >> Twenty first. >> Twenty first, to see Fragments. Thank you so much. And this will be our last
chat with the Speaker Series.

1:23:43

And it’s been a complete joy to host
you and to share our work with you. Have a good evening.

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