0:00

to try and stay on time the next panel or this panel considers Buddhism as a

0:06

source for socially engaged art practice or social practice in the late 1970s the

0:13

concept of engaged Buddhism had a significant impact on artists concerned with social and civil rights issues

0:20

Buddhism has continued to inform approaches to social practice in forming

0:26

ideas related to the role of the artist in society concepts of activism and

0:32

notions of social change this panel explores how artists on Buddhist concepts and methods to situate new

0:39

kinds of social relations considering the relationship between art and service

0:44

and our moderator this afternoon is Marcus Boone Marcus is a writer and

0:54

professor of English at York University in Toronto who also writes about music

1:01

wire he recently co-edited a collection of writings on practice in contemporary

1:08

art with Gabrielle Levine as part of the well-known documents of art contemporary documents of contemporary art series

1:15

published by the Whitechapel Gallery and MIT press Marcus is working on a new

1:21

edition of William Burroughs then Brion Gysin the third mind with David Schneiderman

1:28

and that’s University of minutes Minnesota press then it’s forthcoming and among his various publications

1:33

Marcus as edited a volume of poems by the Buddhist poet John Jian oh and his

1:39

cause with Timothy modern and Eric Kasdan of a book of essays titled nothing three inquiries into Buddhism so

1:47

thank you Marcus

1:59

hi everybody

2:05

I’m just thinking that every time I speak okay I say this target missed our

2:25

mantra before I speak and I never tell

2:30

anyone then I do that so I’m sharing you my Buddhist secret with you yeah I also

2:41

want to say for myself I guess I just

2:48

dedicate my remarks to my friend John giorno who had me just mentioned and who

2:55

died about a week ago and John was a great American Buddhist poet artist kind

3:04

of queer activist as well and you know

3:10

going back to the Vietnam War in his activities with Abbie Hoffman then is he

3:18

had something called the AIDS treatment project in the 80s and 90s where basically he committed to treating

3:27

strangers in other words anyone he met who had AIDS who needed money or love he

3:35

would just give it to them and so he collected money from different sources and then kind of without discrimination

3:43

would just give whatever it was that they wanted that he was able to give

3:48

them and that was the project and when I

3:53

first started getting into Buddhism and I was excited to meet Buddhists artists

3:59

and poets and I would interview them and he was one of the first I interviewed and he basically refused to admit he was

4:07

a Buddhist poet he would just say I’m a Buddhist now I’m a poet and I believe in

4:15

compartmentalization in other words I don’t want the two things to mix even

4:21

though like half of his poems are called things like guru appreciate him and

4:28

completely stumped me it was not what I was expecting at all so I approached

4:33

with trepidation I’m talking about Buddhism and heart but um yeah we are so

4:41

I’m going to introduce our three panelists first of all Oliver kala Hama

4:47

so Oliver is an ecological artist educator activist and writer through his

4:54

botanical interventions and public art projects he seeks to demonstrate

5:00

nature’s surprising ability to recover from damage his work facilitates the

5:05

processes of environmental regeneration by engaging the botanical and socio-political underpinnings of a

5:12

landscape and calling to mind a socially engaged Buddhism it continues to evolve

5:18

and has taken various forms such as small scale urban eco eco forestry

5:24

inner-city community agriculture and the restoration of eroded railway praveen’s

5:31

not going to read the full printed bio because you can do that yourselves

5:39

so Susan Stewart is a social practice artist and educator who lives in

5:46

Vancouver BC her early work was with the queer collective kiss-and-tell

5:51

whose provocative productions were exhibited and performed locally and internationally a work continues to

5:59

address relational and political aspects of the social body including social

6:04

ecological sustainability within context of both Buddhism and cultural

6:10

crisis projects include documenting the Arctic addressing human culpability in

6:17

catastrophic ice loss a theme also explored in the immersive video installation change without notice

6:25

present work involves image explorations of Buddhist pilgrimage sites in Asia and

6:32

North America focusing on the human seeking of the sacred in a time of radical disconnection finally Molly whoo

6:42

so Molly is a leader in promoting socially engaged art in Taiwan since the

6:50

1990s she has produced a series of highly influential projects among which arts as environment a cultural action of

6:58

the plum tree Creek jointly produced with bamboo curtain studio one the

7:04

tycion Arts Award in 2013 the most prestigious art prize in Taiwan parallel

7:12

to a practice she led the translation of two important texts Susanne Lacey’s

7:18

mapping the terrain new genre public art and granite Kester’s conversation pieces

7:24

community and communication in modern art into Chinese in 20 in 2007 she

7:32

organized the landmark conference art and the public sphere working in community and later edited a volume of

7:40

the same title to unite local practitioners theorists and officials so

7:47

basically I’m going to ask each of the panelists to speak briefly about

7:53

connection between Buddhism art and social engagement

8:08

hi everyone so we prepared a little bit

8:17

beforehand we had a very interesting conversation in the coffee shop and we realized that we were all really

8:23

interested in each other’s work so I’m hoping we have lots of time for the tooling and froing my background I will

8:34

start with an anecdote from very early childhood so imagine I’m in a sandbox in

8:42

the back of a six Plex apartment in southern Ontario near Toronto and my

8:48

father worked in a in a styrofoam Factory a styrene factory so he worked night shift so he was kind of the

8:55

superintendent of this apartment and he made us a sandbox me and the other

9:00

little roof Ian’s who were living there and our favorite thing to do and it’s my I might have been like three was we had

9:07

little plastic shovels and we dug down into the sand you know passed all the

9:12

cat droppings and everything and then we would get to where there was earthworms and our favorite thing to do would be to

9:21

pick up the earthworms and cut them in half with their shovels and watch them wiggle and I we did this like every day

9:28

it was kind of like a weird demonic child torture practice um so one day my

9:35

father came out of the building and he looked at me and he looked at the worms wiggling in my little plastic bucket and

9:43

he started sobbing now he was not really sobbing but I was too young and you know

9:50

naive to understand that but he was going oh I am a pain I hurt so much you

9:58

cut me in half and now I hurt and oh and then I burst into for real tears and

10:06

that has stayed with me as a sort of a pathetic moment of when I first realized

10:14

that there was suffering in the world and that I could be responsible for the

10:19

suffering of other beings who I didn’t really understand you know had suffering so so this was

10:26

like a sort of moment and ever since then I’ve been trying to do work that somehow addresses the sort of

10:33

subjectivity of the nonhuman and also to

10:38

try to reduce suffering in some way in the world it is as best I can and the

10:44

other topic that I was very moved by was

10:49

where does where do I end and the worm begins right like what is that sort of

10:57

line between myself and other and so this is troubling me as an as an artist

11:03

for you know since I got going and I eventually met my my wife who’s a Zen

11:10

Buddhist priest novelist Ruth ozeki who some of you have known and I I was

11:17

telling her all these things you know I’ve been reading like you know bruno latour or donna haraway and you know

11:24

going on about multi-species models and stuff and she says we do that we you know the Buddhists have known this for

11:31

2,000 years like what are you talking about why is this new right so we were constantly having this kind of

11:36

conversation between art theory my own kind of you know mental torture about

11:43

trying to do good in the world and and Zen Buddhism so there’s been remarkable

11:48

congruence –is that i’m continuously discovering like you know 25 years after

11:54

having gotten together with bruce so so that’s that’s something of an ongoing threat in the practice and then there’s

12:02

this notion of ephemerality so much of our practice their social practitioners

12:09

is about maybe starting something

12:14

working with with communities working with ecosystems working with you know

12:20

complicated situations and then removing ourselves I think that’s kind of a sort

12:28

of fundamental part of it so so we’re sort of non monumental we work a work a

12:34

wave this notion of monuments and trying to decide like can we when what can I not

12:40

do right that’s a very important kind of question to ask yourself as an artist we’re so motivated by productivity we

12:47

sort of internalized you know kind of 40 and nature notions of production but to

12:54

actually stand back and go what can I not do when is it time to let the

12:59

intervention start to have its own life and and the people and and ecosystems

13:07

that we have somehow may be affected or helped start to take care of themselves

13:13

and and evolve beyond us as the artist and the artist can then go away and be forgotten about so I think it’s very

13:19

important I certainly my practice is to sort of step back and go this is fine I don’t need to do anything anymore

13:26

and the older I get the less I want to do so I’m really my ambition is to you know do more and more of less and less

13:33

right so it’s it’s it’s it’s kind of laziness but it’s also a kind of way of

13:39

being able to do with other things that then you then remove yourself from so that’s been an ongoing ongoing theme

13:46

these are like these little sort of floating motes of of ideas that

13:51

hopefully we can we can we can build on and and the idea of like not making work

13:58

that’s about something like but being something so my work is not about the

14:04

environment it is the environment and then the environment after a while doesn’t necessarily need me anymore so

14:09

so that’s maybe the difference between this kind of practice and other practices haven’t gone on for too long

14:24

oh you wanna use oh yeah hi

14:31

I really appreciates him I invited me to be here because when I got the

14:38

invitation I thought oh I am NOT a practicing artist but the Buddhism is

14:46

actually embedded in the whole culture and in our daily life and what could I

14:52

contribute to but us during these days I

14:57

mean through different panels I learned a lot and it also reminds me of the

15:04

passes I have gone through and I thank you that very much and what’s first of

15:10

all I would like to share is about my learning process art I I have my arts

15:18

study in at the beginning it was in Vienna so it’s it’s from the nineteen

15:26

eighty and I stayed there for one and a half year and then I went to Dusseldorf

15:33

Kunz Academy so I Academy there’s a dog so I stayed there until 86 so I was

15:42

struggling a lot because I came from totally different culture I mean I I

15:48

haven’t learned art in Taiwan but I was

15:54

very interested in theatre so I thought I would love to learn something about

16:00

theatre and it’s why I went to Vienna but when I was there that was about the

16:07

time when the the action art was so popular in Vienna and they are some

16:17

iconic figure like have managed etc I

16:23

mean all those male artists who has really very strong ego to express

16:32

themselves and I found it’s so difficult for me

16:37

because I I’m not this kind of person I mean I and but again so it’s really

16:45

helped me to think of the the cultural differences so I realized that I I was

16:54

trying to learn art in a Western world but the art i i i was confronting is

17:04

actually from totally different culture background because I came from a world

17:12

where as I said Buddhism or Taoism was really embedded in our daily life so we

17:21

were taught not to have ego or not to we

17:27

really so egocentric so so I really have

17:33

difficulties in learning art in the Western world because I realized that

17:39

art is actually about individualism and art is really about express your own ego

17:49

but then when I was induced off it was also a kind of very interesting period

17:56

because there was fluxes and and also

18:01

the group zero and my professor was printer yuca whose work is really very

18:09

meditative and also at the time there were a lot of focus events in the

18:17

academy so I began to encounter the kind

18:24

of art which is really very different from the art I have experienced in

18:29

Vienna and and then I began to to reach

18:35

those I mean Texas by those those artists and I realized that they were

18:42

very much influenced by Buddhism Taoism and it really helped me to find

18:50

the paths or the way how I can use art

18:58

to express myself so I would say this is a very interesting experience because

19:05

here I heard so many from many of you

19:10

who I mean who who is the living who is living here in Western world by talking

19:19

about Buddhism while I myself come from

19:24

the Asian world where the Buddhism Taoism is really embedded in daily life

19:32

although it could be also kind of ideology but I hardly think of that so I

19:41

felt like that’s the lie actually [Music]

19:47

learning to and stay more about Zen or Buddhism Taoism actually from the

19:55

Western Western art I mean artists like cruises so so yeah I think that’s that’s

20:08

really have lava impact in my my my art

20:13

practices and especially maybe you know the social structure is turn came from

20:21

Joseph boys who was also teaching in digital codes Academy and and in 86 when

20:32

I when I went back to Taiwan that now was the time when Taiwan has a lot of

20:40

political movements happening and I was I mean the work I have done in digital

20:48

during this this my study time it’s it’s

20:53

also quite meditative and very playful this so if I was

20:58

say I was trying to use the daily material and to express the playfulness

21:06

and also I mean it’s very much like a

21:13

very meditative work but when I went back to Taiwan I was confronting

21:20

attention in in our society and then again I was trying to ask myself how art

21:28

can do with that so let that’s how the social structures I mean this term came

21:35

to my mind and I was trying to understand the relationship between art

21:41

and society so in year 2000 when I was

21:47

invited to work with a group of women from community and I I was conducting a

21:57

workshop wisdom and most of them have had no art education but at the very

22:07

beginning when I was doing workshop with them they were saying oh they they didn’t know how to do art but then I I

22:15

say okay why not just begin with drawing a line and it’s to express yourself

22:22

through this simple line it could be a straight line or a broken nine-hour

22:28

curve now whatever you want it and after

22:34

the success exercise everyone became really an artist so they could really

22:41

express themselves very well to a simple line and this experiences was really

22:48

very inspiring to me somehow I feel that I learned what are means to us again

22:57

through this very simple exercise and and so students experiences I I also try

23:09

to to think what kind of art education we

23:15

had because most of the art education in Taiwan especially we are really focusing

23:22

on producing artists instead of I mean

23:27

to help people understand art or to to

23:32

appreciate arts by yourself so that’s

23:38

how it how I begin to think maybe we

23:43

should focus the the audiences I mean I

23:49

mean I was asking myself who who is your audience and who whom are you addressing

23:56

to and his looted art so to look through this kind of conversation or dialogues

24:02

inside myself I began to work more and more with the general public

24:08

and then somehow it develops into a kind of so-called socially engaged art and I

24:15

really learned a lot from this kind of experiences because I I realized that

24:25

that art is not about artists she or

24:31

herself it’s more about a statical

24:39

experiences and through this process that we all share and understand and

24:45

appreciate it and this is the reason why I am very much interested in in using

24:56

art as a tool to address different issues that I am interested in for

25:04

example as I said when I went back to Taiwan we have quite strong political

25:12

movements which there was none there meant there were many issues not just

25:19

about about the political hierarchy

25:25

but also very much about the gender issue environmental issue and they were

25:31

issued a set relay were many issue happening at the same time so so so I

25:39

began to use odds to address the issue and social in equality equality yeah

25:50

yeah and and and through those experiences I I found that I’ve somehow there’s a new

26:03

art form which later I realized that it it’s called so called new genre public

26:09

art but and also because of that I began

26:15

to greet some theories or some books

26:20

like from America’s just mentioned at the book edit by Susan AZ or written by

26:28

Frank Essex etc and also later our realize there’s an aesthetic called

26:34

relational aesthetic by hoosier own etc so I I think through these experiences I

26:46

am two words a very different intention

26:51

of making art our are bringing a

26:57

different and sending of so called art education and which is not so much about

27:07

our eco or not so much about egocentric but it’s really about sharing

27:15

communicating and and yeah and doing art

27:22

through the process so I think I share

27:29

here and data if anything comes to my mind I would say again thank you

27:39

hello huh it’s so nice to be here with all of you this has been a remarkable

27:44

convening and thank you to the organizers it’s very beautiful I really

27:50

didn’t know what I was gonna say today and you know I woke up at 2:30 last night pondering and I think I have like

27:57

five minutes so you know I think what I want to talk about because there are a few things we could talk about is how

28:03

Buddhism absolutely ruined my art career

28:09

and why and how that happened so you know I’ve been an artist for at least

28:15

forty five be a long time long long time and you know I’m in the same bracket is

28:21

these two three and you know when I came I was a very ambitious young artist and

28:27

full of steam and when I came out of art school I was ready to just like rock and

28:34

roll it and I hit barriers immediately outside the gate I hit the barrier of

28:40

sexism I hit the barrier of homophobia and I hit the barre of class and these

28:46

were huge obstacles so my first 20 years

28:51

of my career was spent battling systems I found like-minded friends artists and

28:57

together we you know had pitched battles in these three areas women’s liberation

29:05

queer liberation and class and so it was an exhilarating time but all it ended up

29:12

doing is making me more angry and I was already kind of angry anyway but I became extremely angry and to the point

29:19

where things became very meaningless for me and you know I couldn’t make sense of

29:25

the world you know I couldn’t make sense of injustice I found you know I know a lot of social practice artists and I

29:32

think one thing that we all have all of us is we haven’t finally attenuated intolerance for injustice and I’ve seen

29:40

that in all of my social practice friends and colleagues and that is

29:47

always and it seems like the switch goes on he’s always on and chill but you know in adults it seems something happens but when the switch is

29:53

on for me and my friends it never goes off it’s always there an irritation so

30:00

you know I was also very curious about spirituality and I knew that I had this

30:05

big lack of something but I couldn’t quite put my finger on it so anyway 20 years in I’m really angry

30:12

I’m kind of a spiritual seeker I’m suffering a lot I’m seeing a lot of

30:17

suffering in the world and I can’t make sense of any of it so I found Buddhism you could say or

30:23

voters have found me I don’t know how this works exactly but anyway uh-huh Buddhism and I made a connection and I

30:30

had a I found an incredible I found my perfect teacher and I found the perfect

30:36

lineage which was the fostering at a Tibetan lineage and it was almost them

30:41

immediately I just decided to go for it so I turned over everything and I said

30:48

well I’m gonna just look into this buddhadharma because I mean I hit a wall anyway so why not so I went in a hundred

30:56

percent and I spent the next ten or fifteen years studying Buddhism

31:02

intensively and I had a very good guide fortunately and so move things along and

31:08

I started practicing also although I’m not a great practitioner I’m much more like a lot of Westerners I’m more

31:13

intellectually oriented but anyway um so I started at the beginning and you know

31:20

that when I heard the first teaching of the Buddha I was totally hooked because the first teaching of the Buddha with

31:26

the Four Noble Truths and the first truth is the truth is suffering yeah I can relate to that second noble truth is

31:32

the cause of suffering I didn’t understand that one so I have spent several years trying to figure out figure out those teachings because

31:38

they’re they are really they’re good but they’re difficult third noble truth is another good one it’s a nirvana peace

31:44

liberation freedom as possible excellent news and then the fourth noble truth is

31:50

the path or the methodology to discover that not such good news from someone

31:57

like me so it was a twenty year investigation and I tried to divorce art

32:04

right at the gate at the beginning I said you and I art were kind of finished so I want a divorce and art said no not

32:11

gonna happen I’m sticking with you so I said oh thank you fine but I’m not gonna pay any attention to you for a long time

32:17

and so I didn’t for about six years or so art and I you know I tried to push it

32:23

away it wouldn’t it was sticking but it went it was there but I was you know and because why so when you start studying

32:32

Dharma and you start in the beginning you know the whole first wheel of Dharma the foundational teachings are about

32:38

teaching you how not to cling to this thing called self and ego right and you

32:43

know you we were clinging like this a one finger at a time they tear off you know until you you’re clinging kind of

32:49

lessons a little bit you have to start with yourself in Buddhism so you know I

32:54

did that for quite a long time and you know I was meditating and practicing on my own non-existence and my self

33:00

non-existence of my ego so you know there wasn’t so a contradiction starts

33:06

popping up so how can you be happy you know I’m empty I have no ego I have no

33:12

self how can that make it a truly existent artwork you know if there’s a

33:18

contradiction there because my understanding of art up to that point was that it was kind of like a sign of

33:26

self at that point in your life so he’s throwing out all these signs in my case you know I was angry activist so my

33:33

signs are very political but they were signs of self really in my mind so I was

33:38

having this conflict you know this this contradictory conflict of selflessness ELA sness emptiness and then art which

33:47

is demanding presence demanding production demanding action demanding

33:53

something each of me so when I was in the foundational study I couldn’t deal

33:58

with that at all when I moved onto the mahayana ten years later thankfully i got that got that far when you get to

34:06

that space if you if you open up a little bit of emptiness in yourself and for me it was probably just a crack

34:13

what starts to happen is that you get more in touch with your heart again right and you know when you’re an angry

34:19

activist that’s the first thing that goes really at least in my case it was you know I couldn’t feel any more you

34:26

know I got very numb so the practice and the study of the buddhadharma opens up the heart a little bit so what does that

34:33

mean it means that you start thinking about other people again you know and start thinking about engaging with the

34:39

world again but of course I’ve destroyed everything by now and I have no definition for arting or I completely

34:45

don’t understand what art is at all at this point or why anyone would do it that was my John Cage period by the way

34:51

for UK genes I was showing four three three and all my creative process classes and I might might my mantra die

34:58

chanted over and again I have nothing to say and I’m saying and I’ve got nothing to say and I’m saying and that was me my

35:04

egg you know for like five years I’ve got nothing to say and I’m saying it I’m not producing anything so a total

35:09

fraud as an art teacher so you know this is all happening and then but Mahayana

35:15

was came along thankfully and in Mahayana you start with the Heart Sutra which we’ve been introduced to a couple

35:21

of times in this these couple of couple of days here and the Heart Sutra is about emptiness but it’s about you know

35:28

not this not this not this not this but something replaces all of that not and

35:33

that’s a heart this kind of shining bright awake and caring deeply about

35:38

other beings so this is good news for somebody you know that was my impulse early on but I was very confused so a

35:46

little bit less confused so I’m thinking to myself well arts let’s try again let’s see if we can do something here

35:52

but honestly I can’t make a thing I can’t make anything that’s a thing so

35:57

what I did for the next 10 years was what I would call art that doesn’t even

36:03

look like art it was I don’t think it was even readable to people it was it was it was incoherent illegible as art

36:11

but for me I felt like I was entering back into art and a social practice which I’ve always felt aligned with was

36:18

coming on stream as a discourse at this point so that was really helpful and I you know I started reading a lot of

36:23

social practice material I didn’t fine you know I like Molly and Oliver my

36:29

roots are in Fluxus and all that happening is performance art you know so

36:34

I had been introduced to the lineage of social Pratt that is the lineage in some respects and so you know I did this for

36:44

about 10 years so I took on a couple of projects that were invisible but for me they were art projects so I won’t go

36:50

into the details one was an administrative job in an art school for seven years and the other was a deep

36:57

ecology of farming or urban ecology and so I won’t give details about that but

37:03

those are my two projects and for me they were social practice our projects but they couldn’t be read by the culture

37:09

as that necessarily so now I’m babbling on up with this

37:15

student so I don’t know what that means exactly but and I think I’ve talked

37:21

enough probably at this point that’s at least seven minutes right I got the hook okay thank you yeah

37:36

trying to think where to where is the best way to go with this I guess I’m interested in your thoughts

37:45

on collaboration like you know in in different ways each of you is concerned

37:52

with interdependence and having some kind of art practice that emerges out of

38:01

interdependence and what it means to collaborate and just how do you think

38:07

about that or or how do you think Buddhism maybe changes what the terms of

38:15

collaboration actually are especially with socially engaged art

38:26

so so that’s a very interesting question because you know there’s there’s human

38:31

collaborators I mean I’ve worked I continue to work with mostly other people working with people from NYU now

38:39

and a dear climate a collective and we are looking at this sort of psychosocial effects of climate change and and you

38:46

know the whole really is greater than the sum of its parts I mean like like none of us like this thing that that

38:53

happens is so far beyond any of us as individuals and that that’s what makes it interesting and fun and my early work

39:01

was all collaborative with with a painter called Janice Foley who was very influential in my early work but but

39:08

then that non-human collaborators also you know working with ecosystems

39:15

the fact that you know thinking thinking of agency as an artist I mean you you

39:21

have this idea right but really everything has ideas and so lately I’ve

39:27

been working a lot with insects who have their own ideas and I think in the in the scroll of images there’s a image of

39:35

a Styrofoam cup which goes back to my father’s sad life because he got cancer

39:42

from working styrofoam factories and and and this idea of this material that sort

39:47

of has permeated my life and I’m now kind of dealing with long after he’s gone you know so this material is

39:54

essentially a collaborator even though it’s an obnoxious plastic material but I’m actually feeding it to insects which

40:00

are creating these random like absences of material so so you have like likes uh

40:07

you know pieces of garbage that are full of holes that I now send to art galleries and my name is on these pieces

40:12

of garbage as the artist but I didn’t really do them like there was like ten

40:18

thousand nameless mealworms who are responsible I mean I put it in the FedEx box right so I did something but

40:26

and so I had this I had this idea okay so so but that’s it that’s it that’s a

40:32

valid collaboration too and then when you’re working with communities also like you you have a sense of what you

40:39

may want to do and that some of that may continue through the collaboration but

40:45

but the sort of serendipitous quality of all of the other agencies is really what

40:51

makes the work much more interesting when you can sort of stand back from it go I didn’t know that was gonna happen

40:57

that’s like totally wild and and so so so sort of taking the self out of it and

41:02

sort of acting more as a kind of irritant or perhaps a good irritant like

41:09

I sort of homeopathic agent or are sort of germ around which things can form so that can be a type of collaboration as

41:15

well so so so it really depends on the sort of meta narrative or the micro

41:21

narrative and I’m really interested I don’t like working by myself I guess the bottom line is though the less of me and

41:26

the work the better but somebody has to start something sometimes so yeah I work

41:37

in many different ways it depends on the

41:43

subject so as I just mentioned actually in the 90s most of my of my work is it’s

41:51

very political it’s really about social political art and but I’m not by myself

41:57

that in 97 when I began to develop a

42:03

project which is about the stories of the women from the textile factory I

42:12

began to ask myself what does the the

42:18

art mean because when I produce a word

42:24

with people’s story I I mean I achieved

42:32

something but what this this art work means to them you know I started

42:39

to question myself and I think it’s it’s not just about the ethical problem but

42:46

also because it’s also a question of what’s what what does the art means or

42:53

what does an odd expression means especially to those people who are

42:58

related to to the world so I started to find the way that the work bring not

43:10

just some satisfaction to myself but also have some impact to other people so

43:18

I will call my my work most of my works is about intervention so it means when I

43:26

begin to do something it’s always there’s always an issue but certainly

43:34

it’s all about social political or environmental issue but if I would like

43:42

to to do something which have really

43:47

also impact other people not just on myself then I really need to find a way

43:54

to engage the other people so that that’s the problem that I try to address

44:04

could be more aware also by the other

44:09

people are try to bring possible changes to the reality so I call this as a

44:18

collaboration but it not necessarily means that we work together so I I would

44:25

say that I just try to initiate something so that people can join in if

44:34

they want so in this way we collaborate collaborate together and and and I think

44:44

[Music] who-who-who ever participated in the project I mean

44:49

is also their work not just my work so in this way we really collaborate with

44:57

each other so yes I love collaboration

45:04

and I would say 75% of my practice has been collaborative I seek it out when I

45:09

can I don’t I like working with other minds because I know especially if we’re

45:16

dealing with complex or difficult issues questions I find that working with

45:22

collaborators you get a very unexpected results that are much more full and much more actually interesting for the viewer

45:29

on the one hand and the other thing I’ve tried to do in my careers in power subjectivity so I’m a photographer and

45:37

I’ve done projects where I’ve worked with people where they have been the subject and will either from a

45:44

documentary film or in a photo series of my work and I really try to always on

45:52

you know it’s difficult but how make the power as equal as possible and an honor

46:00

the subject side of things and actually from mic respect that’s more important when I’m working with people I’m much

46:07

more interested in people’s side of things in my own I’m really bored of myself so you know it’s really

46:13

collaboration for me is very necessary I would say most of the time the other 75%

46:20

of my practice and has become I didn’t quite finish my story there has become I’m pretty trying to practice presence

46:26

now in a new way and that’s why I love them that title of this conference so much the present moment I I’m trying to

46:34

be an artist who is present there was nothing called the artists about marina

46:39

about thing like that right the artist is present I can’t say that’s true of me

46:45

but it’s an aspiration to be present [Music]

46:51

maybe I’ll ask one quick last question and we’ll we’ll open it up I wasn’t

46:59

going to ask this but the word resistance came into my mind and I was

47:06

just thinking I mean especially this morning like when I meditate

47:12

unfortunately I’m not an enlightened being and if I ask myself why I am NOT

47:18

an enlightened being at some level within myself there is a resistance to

47:24

being enlightened and when I look

47:30

politically at the world we inhabit and I asked myself why we are not liberated

47:38

politically and why we don’t inhabit a kind of egalitarian world at some level

47:47

resistance manifests there and so I I

47:53

just kind of wonder in general what the role of resistance actually is in your

47:58

practice as artists and how you work with the fact that often stuff doesn’t

48:06

change we don’t change or the the way reality in its illusionary form persists

48:20

[Music] whatever you like yes sure so so this is

48:30

a word that that I think about a lot my own resistance to pretty much everything

48:36

that involves hard work but there’s a larger theme that a lot of the work that

48:45

I like the most and try to try to do is have some sort of emancipatory program

48:51

right so the idea that things are not what they they might be there’s there’s

48:56

their suffering and there’s also a voice issue

49:02

as you pointed out this issue of subjectivity right how can how can we as artists help help intersubjectivity to

49:12

to to evolve like to allow space for for voices that aren’t aren’t being heard

49:19

and those those could be non-human voices and and one of the the problems

49:26

in the sort of present you know sort of historical moment and this is you know going me going back to the beginning of

49:32

our careers but sort of modernism late modernism is this the sort of the object

49:39

of the market capitalism you know there’s increasingly the

49:44

figure-ground relationship between what is the market and what is not the market is harder and harder to discern so that

49:51

our work you know that I’m seeing in common and certainly what I’ve tried to

49:57

focus on most of my career is is to create the adjacent possible right so

50:03

the idea that there’s an outside to the market system there’s places like community gardens and you know crazy

50:10

permaculture projects that where the market is not it doesn’t apply it’s like

50:17

Glinda the Good Witch coming down and going you have no power here you know

50:24

and so not that I’m Glinda the Good Witch but but somebody has to do well I should do a pretty good Glinda but um

50:31

there has to be an alternative to the sort of hegemony of the market not just

50:38

that the oppressive nature of the market but also it’s it’s kind of monoculture

50:43

that everything is a transaction according to its you know exchange value

50:49

and and so so in terms of intersubjectivity to create subjectivity outside of the market aesthetic I think

50:56

is a very vital part of my practice and a lot of social practice people so the

51:02

resistance to the market monoculture the resistance to the kind of power

51:07

relationships that have defined you know life since since we were born is is a

51:16

key motivator so that’s that’s what the resistance comes in yeah I agree that

51:24

art is very much about resistance because art helped things unheard to be

51:32

heard so as I said I would call most of

51:39

my projects as art intervention so intamin mentioned means you know there’s

51:45

something that you want to to intervene and so that it could be somehow

51:52

different although maybe the world doesn’t change that so quick to bring

51:59

this awareness of of the problematic I think it’s very important and also I

52:05

agree what Oliver’s was same I think the the role of art in the society nowadays

52:15

since not so I I do idealistic to me

52:22

because it’s very it’s too much about the commodity or too much about using

52:30

art as a kind of tool or bringing the so-called creative industry etc and I

52:38

think that should be something really about how to to bring the beauty into

52:46

life but the beauty is not as a formalistic idea but it’s really about

52:55

how we feel good and really about bringing positive energies into life

53:04

that’s what I thought about you know I don’t have a lot to add I agree with

53:11

everyone has just said that you know I’m pondering this notion of resistance and from a you know Dharma practice

53:17

perspective really it’s about letting go of resistance ultimately speaking you

53:24

know letting go and what we about here from me you know it’s working with my own concepts of resistance and

53:30

my own concepts of other my own biases that is forcing a duality of me and them

53:37

or this and that you know and trying to actually bridge that space and the only

53:44

place I have any control that all is in my own mind really I can’t control others but I can control my relationship

53:51

to others for my side right so you know I’ve heard it said I have no idea what

53:56

enlightenment is either I haven’t got a clue but I’ve heard it said that the great mahasiddhas experienced something

54:02

called the quality and that they treat all beings as equal without any bias

54:08

whatsoever and I think I may I have that aspiration as well you know I’ve been a political activist I understand

54:14

resisting systems right I still unlike that get me going easily but you know

54:21

from a personal dharmic meditative space and an aspiration to become enlightened

54:29

at some point in some lifetime I think that the practice there is to really

54:35

look at that our own minds and what what resistances are showing up and really

54:41

look at those quite directly and try and understand them thank you

54:50

okay so we have I don’t know 20 25 minutes so are there questions from the

54:57

floor Chrisann

55:10

thank you guys that’s been I love this panel anyways so um yesterday I spoke

55:18

about my my teacher kale apprenticeship and of course might work with jet cement

55:25

Tenzin palmo and one of the observations I have had with both of them is they

55:32

were surrounded by artists artists musicians writers jetsam –is her

55:45

Gorillaz an artist welcome to ricochet for the first there

55:50

our charcoal ricochets a very interesting artist within that community

55:56

okay with ricochet was very close to Allen Ginsberg his students include

56:03

Philip Glass and numerous other people we during one teaching which was very

56:09

ricochet we was talking about dedication you know you dedicate the merit and all

56:15

that and he looked at the song and he said you can dedicate your art your art

56:23

practice so in the dedication you dedicate the work that you do to benefit

56:30

us and these or two you know whether you like them or not you know like and so I

56:38

was wondering how that thought of dedicating your work or if you’ve ever

56:47

done that I’m curious

56:57

he said that was so that we don’t get too obsessed with the little ego and

57:04

running around and or yes I think I

57:12

think that’s really the main thing it’s like what why do you do these things right like why all the things you could

57:18

do in life it’s a pretty nuts thing to be an artist like like like this really

57:24

now given the sort of commercial environment that we live in it you know of all the choices you know all of us

57:30

who are like educators like how am I gonna make a living at this professor Cal hammer and it’s like oh my

57:37

god you know don’t ask me I barely make a

57:43

living myself you know teaching you guys but anyhow but but but the question is

57:48

why right and and and you dedicate yourself and I think I think you know

57:55

reducing suffering and and and also to to deepening understanding is also the

58:01

curiosity like what would it be like to know deeper levels of you know

58:08

intersubjectivity but it’s just a deeper a deeper immersion in in being right and

58:13

being is really it and that the more you you think about things and make work the

58:20

deeper you get so so so it’s a more present kind of cognitive state right so

58:27

so and that’s a really hard sell with people’s parents right it’s like you can’t like monetize that but I think you

58:35

know for me that that really is is the bottom line is just just just a deeper

58:40

understanding and a more compassionate understanding of things that I didn’t understand before and and you know

58:45

somehow if I can contribute to the reduction of suffering then maybe right

58:54

yeah the education is really a very precious and wonderful world what word I

59:03

think it might be the also the only

59:08

meaning for the so called living spaces I mean

59:16

now if we are alive and then what would

59:21

you do you know and dedication this might be really the only thing we can do

59:28

in our life yeah dedication is an

59:34

incredibly important principle and you know it’s an act of generosity and it’s

59:39

giving away but it’s also letting go so once you dedicate something it’s gone so

59:45

that’s a wonderful practice of presence as well so you don’t cling to your own projects whatever whatever good thing

59:51

you did you just gave it away you’re not holding on to it and you’re pretty into service of the world I I have a question

1:00:08

about material what I’ve noticed this morning and in this panel is that the

1:00:17

translation of Dharma often veers

1:00:22

towards sound and towards performance I

1:00:28

was speaking to a musician last week asking like why is it if I do live

1:00:35

sculpture in this space it looks embarrassing but with a group of

1:00:42

musicians set up and play in like in a

1:00:48

you know in the desert or something it it works and she said that music is a

1:00:57

liquid and it feels the it fills a space like no other medium so my question is I

1:01:04

I I struggle with the question of how to

1:01:10

translate Dharma into more tangible material forms and I’m wondering maybe

1:01:18

this is related to what Oliver was saying about communing with a

1:01:23

nonhuman so I’m yeah I’m wondering if

1:01:29

any of you have thoughts on on those sort of material translations and your own practices thanks for bringing that

1:01:38

up I was so great to see Shaarawy you know doing the heart sutra because

1:01:45

it’s all about impermanence and and and you know the idea of emptiness is form

1:01:53

form is emptiness and and that material is impermanent and and we’re impermanent

1:02:01

so so I mean sound obviously has its own impermanence but but working with

1:02:07

materials there’s something very very lovely about seeing things fall apart

1:02:14

and and decay and also change like like in in the kind of work I do you know

1:02:20

these kind of botanical interventions you you know you set up some sort of scaffold of plants and and people to

1:02:29

take care of them and and you know you have this idea but then things sort of have their own ideas and start to evolve

1:02:36

and you know the process of succession you know like the alder tree is eventually give way to the Douglas firs

1:02:41

and so forth right there’s these processes and and you working with that is working with impermanence but but

1:02:47

there’s a sort of larger intelligence of the universe it goes beyond the practitioner so I’m really fascinated by

1:02:54

the city of deep time nature of material to like what happened to me plastic you know doing a lot of work with plastic

1:02:59

lately and and it is almost like this strange reminder of impermanence because

1:03:07

now we all have plastic inside us from from you know the plastic we thrown away

1:03:13

but you know we we had this idea that it you know it was gonna gonna be permanent

1:03:21

you know we would we would have we would have a bag that would stay a bag but it doesn’t stay a bag it becomes a micro

1:03:26

plastic and gets lodged in our lungs you know so so this idea that this impermanence and where impermanence and

1:03:32

we’re we’re sort of our own the material conditions in which we exist are also constantly in flux and

1:03:40

you know kind of what goes around comes around so I’m fascinated by the material impermanence and particularly of the

1:03:46

Anthropocene right so and then how do we as practitioners relate to material and

1:03:52

then you are talking about Timothy Morton right and this idea of material having agency itself like that oil you

1:04:00

know you can think about oil as material that has engineered extinction right so

1:04:07

oil comes from extinct fauna and oils

1:04:13

job is to make more things go extinct so and it’s doing very well so it from the

1:04:18

subjectivity of oil mass extinction is a good thing because you get more oil right so so sort of it bad paraphrasing

1:04:28

of Timothy Morton but but you know you can even think about any material what would it be like to be this material and and and you know want more of itself I

1:04:44

have a secret love of paintings I mean it’s a very passionate love actually I

1:04:49

don’t paint and I don’t make paintings but I love looking at them and I

1:04:55

reminded of Cal saying actually yesterday talking about Tonka painting and you know Tonka is an incredible

1:05:03

lineage in history in Tibetan Buddhism and it had a very powerful function of

1:05:09

transmission and teaching for people and I have a tremendous respect for that

1:05:15

form and I also have a tremendous respect for the work of westernizing the

1:05:21

form but the point of iconographic paintings with around spirituality is

1:05:30

their their pedagogical largely but they’re also inspirational so I would

1:05:35

hate to see you know so to come to that she may be what you’re saying i we have huge respect for visual art makers

1:05:43

and you know and the Itzik as a form of communication it’s a very important one

1:05:48

and a very innovative one so that’s like us all I want to say

1:06:16

Thanks I’m with Yuya I’m not a Buddhist however I do have a practice which

1:06:24

brings me to that same point of silence which I’m constantly trying to be

1:06:29

present with now I’m finding your panel inspirational both art-wise and

1:06:34

discussion wise and I’d like to bring up something which for me would be a point

1:06:45

of social action there’s a little bit of

1:06:50

um not with yourselves but on the table there are bottles of water and I find

1:06:56

this a bit paradoxical and hip are hypocritical and what Oliver had to say

1:07:02

give you an introduction to this I’m hoping that um I can find some artistic

1:07:09

way of expressing that but really it’s

1:07:15

wait for for the University art

1:07:22

department to be serving water in bottles you probably understand what I’m saying

1:07:27

so I don’t have to carry on until I find an artist artistic way of throwing it

1:07:37

how would any of you go about expressing

1:07:43

that notion with your art practice you know the the environmental degradation

1:07:50

and pollution of the oceans for instance with the water rather than serving it in glasses with a water some other way

1:07:58

thank you

1:08:12

right so stuff happens we all partake in

1:08:17

this conversation yes yeah so yes yes

1:08:28

you and you yeah I don’t know where to go with this except I totally agree with you you know I don’t I think plastic is

1:08:36

an enormous issue right it’s killing our oceans I think we’re well aware of that and yet there are contradictions that

1:08:43

we’re all partaking in consumer culture you know and I think it’s a bit of a process and the awareness is coming for

1:08:50

all of us but I think we kind to each other when we make mistakes you know and I or we have lapses it’s it to me it’s

1:09:04

not so much about mistakes is that it we can’t consider that in an art department at the University how is it going to be

1:09:11

considered in the rest of the world it just seems that some of the places where

1:09:18

I go for instance everything is thrown into the garbage that is clearly marked

1:09:24

organics or recycling even here at the University so what I’m thinking is there

1:09:29

are places in society we should be ahead of the curve and yet they don’t bother

1:09:37

yeah thank you so much for bringing that up and this is something as you miss you

1:09:45

think the country contradictions are everywhere but but also I think there’s that there’s a meta-narrative here like

1:09:51

I mean not only I mean not drinking out of that bottle but but I flew here from New York right so so I’m killing the

1:09:57

planet many times more severely than had I touch my lips to that bottle so but

1:10:04

there are individual choices right and they’re very important and the problem

1:10:10

is you know because I work at a design school there are design problems like there’s a sort of like why are there I

1:10:17

mean with water there are now choices and and a lot of you know public buildings are providing you know water

1:10:24

bottle filling stations stuff we’re getting there but so much of our choices have been reduced by the

1:10:30

sort of violent you know capitalist system that we live in so that we have to do the wrong thing we have shitty

1:10:36

public transit so we have to drive you know we don’t have high-speed railways so that I couldn’t come here by train

1:10:42

without it taking like an L six weeks or whatever long Amtrak would take you know I’d probably be hitchhiking you know

1:10:48

between Chicago and later Des Moines to kind of make it here you know because the train would have derailed or

1:10:54

something so so you know things are so dysfunctional and yet we blame ourselves which is

1:10:59

actually the strategy of the market system to say it’s your fault the

1:11:06

planets dying so this is why we need to think of collective it collectivity and

1:11:11

community and song and and relationships to overcome the oppression that we’re

1:11:18

being sort of you know suffering from so so so I I totally hear you but I think

1:11:25

it’s a mistake to over individualize you know our agency and say no no

1:11:30

collectively we’ve been failed and so this is where you know things like political action come in so so so yes

1:11:37

but let’s look at the big picture also and let’s change like like you know why

1:11:43

nestles even has access to our aquifers you know let alone the plastic bottles you know so so but thanks thanks so much

1:11:50

for bringing that up and I really do appreciate that no she’s not unfortunately yeah she

1:11:55

would remember you and I were gonna be – yeah yeah um no she’s she’s not here so

1:12:03

I think we have time for one more question

1:12:12

hi um I’m just kind of interested in the part of the phenomena of Buddhism coming

1:12:19

into the West as meditation practice and I think on your panel you’re talking about it as an ethical practice so kind

1:12:25

of how maybe your own experience or how you see that in the culture in the West as often we just have images of people

1:12:33

meditating and that’s what we think of as Buddhism and I think what you’re pointing to is more some of Buddha pointed to practices of

1:12:40

generosity dedication so on just maybe

1:12:52

repeat the question to say Susan I think your question is you know we’ve been

1:12:59

discussing engaged Buddhism and ethics in the bluest teachings but you’re asking how meditation functions in the

1:13:05

West as well I think filipinas meditation practice so how how could

1:13:12

effects be more grounded oh I see what you’re saying okay do i she’s asking how

1:13:21

my see if I can answer this I think you

1:13:27

know there are multiple there’s many Buddhist practices in the West there’s not one right and I think that we it

1:13:34

goes all the way from mindfulness in a very kind of no secular kind of space

1:13:41

mindfulness practices it’s depending for you for decades now in North America all

1:13:47

the way to sanghas with ricochets and gurus Tibetan

1:13:53

gurus and who are leading us you know systematic stages of practice as taught

1:13:59

in traditional Tibet or traditional systems of thought so I don’t think

1:14:07

that’s one approach here I think there’s been multiple approaches and I think people I think it’s great people are meditating a I think it’s great

1:14:14

mindfulness is being highlighted and I think we all everybody needs that this is good for everybody it’s good for

1:14:20

children that they’re doing in schools is you know it doesn’t matter and we need all of us need to calm our minds

1:14:26

because we’re all overwhelmed beings where human beings are completely overwhelmed so this is a good thing the

1:14:35

other second part of your question was about how with Moore’s ethics or the

1:14:40

ethical side of the teachings can come forward and engage Buddhism and I think that happens to study personally I think

1:14:48

reading the places where you can go and you can do it on your own absolutely just study the

1:14:54

Dharma study it and if you start at the beginning you know Buddha’s started with

1:15:00

ethics in the first teachings that they say that the Buddha’s first teachings were involved ethics because 2,500 years

1:15:07

ago sounds a lot like it is right now a lot of really intense disturbing Minds a

1:15:16

lot of violence people were killing each other people were lying people were stealing sounds familiar right we

1:15:22

recognize this society you know it wasn’t any different in Buddha’s time so when Buddha started teaching he the only

1:15:29

thing that Buddha the only sole purpose of the Buddhist teachings was to relief being suffering that was the sole

1:15:35

purpose of all the teachings and but in order to do that in the beginning ethics

1:15:41

needed to be addressed because there was a lot of harmful negative action happening and so that’s why you have

1:15:49

your whole big monastic codes of do’s and don’ts all the behavioral stuff that came up in early Buddhism was to stop

1:15:56

people from doing negative actions of body speech in mind and you need to stop

1:16:02

that and pacify that before you can go on to more advanced Buddhist practices

1:16:10

actually because that second noble truth the cause of suffering is exactly that

1:16:15

it’s ignorant its but its desire and aggression which are out of control and

1:16:22

I think that’s what we see in our own society right now in North America certainly are those three ignorance

1:16:29

aggression and desire in their extreme forms causing tremendous negativity and

1:16:35

suffering so I think for myself I learned that by studying early studying

1:16:42

the Sutra studying the history studying I found that that information is available to everybody

1:16:54

Bravo for that that’s the one thing I wanted to maybe unpack was that there’s

1:17:04

there’s a tendency to too you know this

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sort of take the activism or or or the ethics out of practice and and this is

1:17:17

happening and there’s an article recently in The Guardian about the mindfulness conspiracy in which some of you might have read where you know

1:17:23

mindfulness is a big business now in Silicon Valley and it enables people you know there’s a lot of people who are

1:17:28

teaching tech you know tech pros to to meditate in order so they can be more

1:17:34

efficient capitalists so they can be you know get up earlier in the morning and sort of you know monetize their time and

1:17:40

and sort of you know basically become kind of more machine ik and feel better about what they’re doing and be more

1:17:46

focused at work okay so so that’s what happens when you take the ethics out of

1:17:51

of practice right so so so the meditation without the ethics is is is

1:17:57

kind of like you know a half half that half the picture it’s certainly a good

1:18:02

thing to have meditation is a skill you know it’s certainly healthy and there’s there’s many many benefits to the mental

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and physical health but but the ethics is really what I you know you I couldn’t

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live without that but people do and the tendency in capitalism is to subsume everything and including meditation so

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it’s now become a business to get people you know it’s like getting massage or you know something that’s good for you

1:18:29

but it’s not necessarily helping the world right so so I’m very worried about that but but it is a thing that that is

1:18:37

now a trend

1:18:45

guess that said time is up that’s grandma but thank you so much for

1:18:53

your energy and presence and thanks to a parentless thanks to him as well

1:19:04

[Applause] so thank you all so much well this is really long thank you all so much for

1:19:11

being here this afternoon we’re going to be moving across the campus to the

1:19:16

Hickman building for the closing key knowledge by Suzanne Lacy and Jody Evans

1:19:25

so if you’d like to make your way across I think there will be people who will be

1:19:31

able to show you the way if you don’t know your way across campus so maybe

1:19:37

Regan Jenelle evany they’re a bunch of folks at the back waving their hands he’ll be able to

1:19:44

take you across and I think Michael Jiang is also finishing his art work in

1:19:49

the in the hallway so if anybody would like to just watch him conclude that

1:19:57

would be fantastic as well we’ve got a little bit of time so take your time and we’ll wander across thank you very much

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