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okay so good afternoon everyone thank you for joining us today

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for the second event in the series land life and liberation part two my name is sally frater and i

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am the curator of contemporary art at the art gallery of guelph i’m going to begin our time together today with the art gallery of guelph’s

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land acknowledgement today wealth is home to many first nations metis and

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inui people from across turtle island as we gather together we would like to acknowledge that the

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art gallery of guelph resides on the ancestral lands of the outer wandering people and

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more recently these treaty lands and territory of the mississaugas of the credit

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we recognize the significance of the dish with one spoon covenant to this land and offer our and offer respect to our

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anishinabe haudenosaunee and metis neighbors as we strive to strengthen our relationships

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with them we express our gratitude for sharing these lands for a mutual benefit

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although we are convening virtually and might be individually located in different places it is useful for all of

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us to remember that wherever we are whenever we are in what we currently

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refer to as the americas we are on indigenous land and we should move forward in a spirit

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of mindfulness and reciprocity um i’ll just do a quick note if this is

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going to come up in the conversations today um um we are going to be

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touching on issues of serenity and the art gallery of guelph this is something that we are thinking of

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and we are looking towards or we are looking to um to have a serenity statement that we’re

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going to start issuing in the future um so i’m really looking forward to today’s conversation because i think it

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will give us a lot of um useful information that will help us to and that will help to inform us in those

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areas so before we begin there are some brief housekeeping notes since we are in zoom

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in zoom webinar everyone’s microphones are turned off and you are welcome to submit questions

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throughout the conversation using the chat function and when they when the conversation

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sort of comes to a close then we’ll address um them at that time um and i would like

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to thank jenna bronlow and um shauna mccabe for their technical

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support for this series um land life and liberation is a series of

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the five conversations that will unfold as an accompaniment to the decolonize this place exhibition when we breathe we breathe

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together which is currently on exhibit at the art gallery of guelph until april 25th

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the installation and conversations center the d colonial operations manual which can be downloaded on the website

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of decolonize’s place and the art gallery of guelph as a starting point for reflection and action

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the d colonial operations manual embodies the principle of movement generated media

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and is a document offered as a tool of study reflection and action the manual is grounded in five years of

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collective thinking art making and organizing undertaken by de colonize this place

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with dozens of groups in new york city and beyond with numerous references to movement work

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preceding the establishment of decolonized place in 2016.

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the scale material quantity and distribution form of the manual underscores the importance of freely

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shared printed matter in the work of movement building the conversations are about individuals thinking together

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about decolonization abolition and anti-imperialism in in our movements

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so today along with decolonize this place and the mtl collective we have ann spice

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just kieran dylan nelson maldonado torres and skyler williams

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and spice clinkett is a scholar and activist and is involved in the wet suetan

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anti-pipelines anti-pipeline struggle which brought rail travel in canada to a standstill

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and introduced the fight against coastal gas link to the broader republic

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just kieran dylan is an anti-colonial scholar and organizer she is the author of

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prairie rising indigenous youth decolonization and politics of intervention

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which was published in 2017 and an editor of standing with standing rock

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voices from the hashtag no dapl movement from 2019 with

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nick estes nelson maldonado torres is a scholar activist and author

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of against war views from the underside of modernity which was published by duke university

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press into in 2008 and

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which was published in chiapas mexico editorial

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in 2011. skyler williams is a member of a six nations land

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reclamation camp and an iron worker he is a spokesperson for the group’s ongoing deoccupation of the mackenzie meadows

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development dubbed 1492 land back lane this land

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reclamation has stretched on for months and has included blockades across area

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roads court orders to remove people staying there and dozens of arrests the six nations says the property is

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unseated indigenous land

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so with that i’m going to turn it over to amin and natasha

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thank you um thank you sally for uh for that and thank you everybody at golf for all the work that

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they put in for this exhibition and also for these conversations um i just want to start by

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saying that i’m actually really excited to have this conversation you know um with specifically just kieran nelson and skyler

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this is the first time i meet skyler so i’m really excited to kind of build this new relation um and then with you all we’ve been

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scheming together for such a long time so it’s kind of really nice to kind of do a check in you know

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considering so much that it happened to kind of start organizing together and so just an emphasis i think uh some of the

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things that we’re trying to for ourselves like as dtp think about is first you know what does land back as a

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movement mean for both art institutions for movements uh but also uh you know universities

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and like what is our relationship to it and you know how can we be in solidarity with it and and and for it to not just be this

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land acknowledgment right we’ve all kind of uh you know met around the time when land even especially in the united

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states when even doing a land acknowledgment was a huge push to make right um so now i think that the

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question around land back and institutions that’s a really important one that our movements are struggling with

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um specifically you know when it comes to like trying to build solidarity across different lines like the colonial

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abolitionists and anti-imperial lines because um quite often we’re all working in our own issue

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silos right um so and then we’re trying to figure out what does that solidarity mean between

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the abolitionist struggle you know which you know we’ve been part of through fcp whitney and then the george floyd moment

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and then you know decolonization and specifically also anti-imperialism like thinking about it from outside the

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western uh context and thinking about what does um solidarity means across borders um so

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kind of the and and how is all of it rooted in action versus just thought and the combination of those

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um so what are some of the actionable points that a movement can both within the institutions and

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outside of that and so we’re hoping that you know not that we’ll have an answer about this in this conversation but at

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least it’s a beginning or it’s a starting of like furthering and deepening our thinking around action

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around these um so i just wanted to say that yeah and so from starting from the

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ground up and from people doing the work and from the land that we’re kind of speed you know speaking on we we just want to give the

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floor to skyler and then anne and then just kieran and then nelson and you know three to five minutes orient us

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about your thoughts and thinking what do we need to have in the room given what natasha said and what sally

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said and then we’ll just you know facilitate a deeper conversation back and forth on

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this so skyler take it away uh yeah thank you very much i just you know

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welcome to 1492 landback lane and uh so right now i’m in one of the buildings that we were able to

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construct here on site and uh that we’ve maintained now for i think we’re a few

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days shy of eight months of our what what has been except for the

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days when of course the police show up the peaceful occupations of our lands um

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i think that bit of that and that solidarity and that uh that that kind of kinship that is made

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between the struggles around the abolition movement and the defunded police and all that kind of stuff really

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uh trust me the indigenous folks that certainly hear from six nations

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understand what that means to be over incarcerated to you know beyond belief you know

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you can talk about um the prisons and having 25 percent of the population of

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prisons be indigenous folks who make up three percent of the you know overall population

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of canada you know you go to women’s prisons and you’re talking about 30 30 you know 30 to 33 a third of every

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of every woman that’s in these prisons is indigenous you know and so i mean i think we can there’s

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lots of parallels that can be made when we talk about the massive divides

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that happen in courts and uh we tried our our very best uh this

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past fall to argue against the injunction here at landback lane

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uh only to have uh me represent myself in the court and then be barred from my

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participation in that proceeding uh the court then made a decision that the the land claim that we

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had made over the lands here um decided that a permanent injunction

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would be in place deciding forever that uh without hearing

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a bit of argument from the other side as to whether or not these lands were

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ours and so uh our folks over the last

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you know eight months here at the kind of the land back crew has has put together all of the history of

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the land here as well as the last 30 years of uh this land claims

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process that has been happening and so when we went to court we tried to uh you know enlighten some folks on what

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that history was and where you know our claim to this land came from we did uh um

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make a very concerted effort to make sure that we were doing this in the very best way that we

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knew how um we had a ton of help and you know why

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i am the the soul uh name party in the injunction what i mean

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i’m i’m quite lucky in my friends that you know i’ve had some just amazingly smart people around me to be able to

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to put together the case that we did as well as just a ton of community that that that

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came out to make sure that we were able to maintain our place on the land here because i mean it doesn’t matter what

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happens in the courts if you know all the land here is covered in concrete and asphalt like there’s not a

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whole lot of um there’s not a whole lot of room for us i think for us it’s been

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like i said earlier it’s a piece it’s been a peaceful occupation you know like this is our this these are

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our lands and we’re going to utilize these lands how we see fit and so for us that means you know uh

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several tiny homes and a couple of you know 16 by 24 bigger buildings that you know folks have been able to utilize

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and so like this um idea that you know we’re you know these

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violent and all you know all the rest and so and the opp has done uh tried to do a job in

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in making sure that that conversation about our our stance here is is one of violence

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and i think um we keep saying over and over and over again like you know there’s never been a weapon here of any kind on site you

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know like we we make sure that we do everything that we possibly can to make sure that you know people come

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here with a good mind and come and uh it is a dry camp you know there’s never uh drinking or drugs allowed on site

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there’s not like and so we just we we do everything that we can to make sure that the

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folks here are taken care of and you know people got food and you know warm place to sleep

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and and so yeah and i before i forget i just want to you know shout

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out to guelph because i mean like guelph has been uh a huge bit of support

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and i know i i’ve got some people that are very close to me from guelph and i you know like they’re

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uh lots and lots of good folks that are that have been doing lots to help us out on over here at landback lane

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so i hope that was short enough to get the conversation going about that anyways

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thank you skylar anne

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thanks i mean i’m i’m so excited to join everybody for this conversation and to see

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all of your faces um i am like in the depths of dissertation

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writing and so i’ve i’ve come back from um the front lines i was spent about three

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years out on what sewed in territory and uh now um in toronto and i’m trying

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to sift through my own memory and experience of uh

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that particular struggle um so i really feel like i’m in it and i’m in this work of translation and

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trying to figure out how i write something about what i’ve gone through and

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about that struggle and that the people who i’m in in relation with out there

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that is useful um that spurs action that isn’t just speaking to the academy um

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and uh and then i just gotta get it done so i’m sort of like been revisiting moments as

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i try to write stuff up and i’ve been thinking a lot especially in the last month or so about the

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eviction of cgl from what’s owed in territory which is something that happened

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in january of 2020 um and then the the subsequent set of raids

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uh on what’s owed in territory the siege of whitson and territory which um you know i was involved in i

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was arrested during that that time and which spurred on this these you know massive acts

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of solidarity across the continent really um uh sort of most notably from our mohawk

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relatives uh who threw down in a huge way to stop rail traffic and highway traffic

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um on their territories and so um i’m thinking about a couple of moments that i want to highlight um

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from from that time um i’m thinking about the time between the

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eviction and the raids uh which was a return on that territory

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went so it in territory to um a space where there was an industry and

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police constantly coming in and out of the territory other than by helicopter

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um uh i’m thinking about the the changes we noticed in the land

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uh that the animals that that came back during the time where the roads were shut down and the blockade was in

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operation um and how how quickly we noticed

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that that shift um how uh you know we saw our animal relations

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respond to our attempts to protect the terror trying to dwell in that um partially

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because the the raids themselves were like very traumatic um so i’m thinking

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about that that moment um the the about a month out there where we had the the roads

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blocked off and uh the police and industry weren’t weren’t able to come into the territory

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um and sort of how that how that uh helped us deepen the relations with the

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animals and other people that we were um you know sharing that space with at the time

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so that’s something i just want to like hold up uh and the second moment is is actually

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like right after i got out of jail and started to hear about all of the solidarity actions that

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were happening across across the continent and how powerful it was to know that people

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were putting themselves on the line in support of what was happening on what’s owed in territory

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um and the uh what i saw as a kind of repetition of that um

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in all of the the actions that happened after the murder of george floyd uh especially the the forms of

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solidarity that we saw emerging in minneapolis um between indigenous and and black people in minneapolis

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and um how how powerful those uh those statements of solidarity are um

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when it means putting yourself on the line when it means standing up and making sure that it’s it’s known that we’re not gonna um

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sit by and watch our our relatives and friends uh get arrested and be

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be hurt and um be attacked by by the police and and by the state and

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uh that those forms of solidarity those those forms of consequence really

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for the actions of the state and industry um are so important um it was important to

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show that that’s that’s not only possible but it’s it’s to be expected that if you

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um attack one of our nations that other people will respond

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and i think this is especially important as skyler mentioned in the aftermath of a lot of this

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as as people are winding their way through the court system facing a whole bunch of bogus trumped up

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charges that we don’t allow them to be made examples of

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um and that that also spurs on a response that that deserves a response

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and that will continue to build the relationships between these front line sites these sites of

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struggle um and continue to show up for each other and so i think that’s uh you know that’s something something

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i’ve been thinking about in both cases that we you know we um take these actions

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sometimes they feel they feel small or they feel like they can’t really

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address the enormity of all of the attacks we’re experiencing but they have all of these

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all of these repercussions um and all of these responses from not only the animals on the territories

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but also um other nations and other people who are with us and struggle and so i think that uh for me both of those

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moments really uh were really important and important to hold on to um that you know these these responses

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can be expected and uh we can also take on that responsibility of showing up for each other and really making sure that

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they don’t get away with that so i’ll pass back to you i mean

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thank you thank you uh just kieran um hello everyone it’s nice to see

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everybody just echoes everyone’s enthusiasm for being here and able to be being able to be part of this

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conversation um i want to start by thanking sally and everyone at the university of guelph who helped to put

20:47

this together and then to amina natasha and everyone at decolonize this place for your ongoing work

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and for the invitation to be here in conversation with everyone um and to just say you know i’m i’m

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really excited to be uh able to listen to and learn from and

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um it’s nice to meet you skyler and nelson too so yeah so just thanks for the

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opportunity um so i’m speaking to you today from um philadelphia

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in a community bookstore called making worlds that i have in the last year been helping to

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maintain and keep sort of um running and going in the face of the pandemic and

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being here in this bookstore has really made me think a great deal about pedagogy and praxis and political

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education and so much of the incredible work that is happening in communities in philadelphia

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but also you know back home um on um that part of turtle island by

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um indigenous land offenders and water defenders and people that are sort of um including

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myself at various times actually doing the hard work of lifting up the political and historical and social

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and economic context of this moment and um i’m thinking hard these days about what it means

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to actually work in solidarity with people in a world that feels incredibly fractured in a set of

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movements that can also have incredible i think

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can also do and replicate incredible harm because we too are also part of the

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worlds that we’re attempting to transform so thinking about how we re-center

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not just in a rhetorical way but what it means to build relationships with one another and to be able to sustain those

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relationships through a kind of political struggle what places like a community bookstore

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have to offer in those kinds of contexts and i don’t mean just like a bookstore where people come in to read but

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a social and political space and a community space where people come in and learn from one another

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um and are able to actually develop the kinds of relationships that allow

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for movement building to sustain itself over years and through various forms of adaptation that are

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required in the face of tremendous violence that is ongoing um i’ve also been thinking a lot about

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and this is sort of a pandemic induced set of reflections um given the isolation the social and

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geographical isolation from some of my work that i’ve been doing in cambodia for the last decade now

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unable to actually move across the world to be able to think and develop and sustain relationships

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without doing it over a kind of zoom interface and thinking about the um importance of

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internationalism um a lot of i i find myself thinking that more and more every day

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about what that actually looks like and so natasha i was i was excited to hear you um also you know echoing a similar kind

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of reflection you know my parents grew up in punjab there’s still land that my father has there

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and there’s immense farmer farmers protests right in in on that land right now that are

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linked to many many different things that i care about here um in my home in philadelphia and then

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um also you know tied to so many of the struggles that um i’ve been able to be part of and

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and support struggles for native liberation struggles for indigenous sovereignty struggles for abolition struggles to

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support the black communities in philadelphia where i live that are completely under fire by the police that have inherited

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an entire carceral history you know it’s just it’s a whole confluence of things that seem to be

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coming together in this moment and i’m not just i’m not sure if it’s the fact that um you know we’ve been unable to be able

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to gather in the ways that we were able to gather before and so there’s a whole kind of accumulation

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of these questions and a sense of urgency that doesn’t disappear but actually gets greater

24:58

um every day so so yeah those are some of the things that i i sort of have been thinking hard about

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how to actually spend my time you know i’m formally located in the academy but and i’ve always leveraged

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resources whenever i can um and as this sort of a primary

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um relationship with the academy is is my primary relationship is one of extraction it’s always about what i can

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draw from it to leverage out into the world but really thinking hard about what the role my role in the university is relative

25:30

especially around teaching relative to um the kind of political education work that i feel like is essential

25:36

um in order for us to be able to build movements that reflect a kind of reciprocity a kind of

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respect and an integrity that will last in the face of the tremendous of people

25:49

that we’re facing across the world and for me it’s it’s it seems like absolutely crucial

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that we spend energy thinking about those things um and and time in a good way figuring

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out how to make those things come to life um so yeah that’s where i’ll stop

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thank you thank you so much nelson

26:14

yes well it is really a pleasure to be here uh with you thanks uh to decolonize this place and to

26:21

the university of wealth and the library everyone involved for organizing this is a real privilege for me to be here

26:28

with all of you thank you for the invitation and i am very pleased to meet uh

26:33

new uh comrades uh colleagues partners in the struggle and to see again uh

26:39

natasha amin amy mars crystal really pleasure to see you all and reconnect again i also uh

26:47

um want to to shout out to which ella who i believe is in the list of

26:54

participants i mean of of attendees uh because her methodology of the oppressed

27:01

uh her texts has been very fundamental for me for the last 20 years

27:06

and not only that but it was actually in my mind as i read carefully that the colonial

27:11

operations manual there is a conversation there between that text of almost 20 years ago now 20

27:16

years ago and they cannot operation manuals and i look forward to keep engaging both hopefully for the next 20 years and and

27:23

more i also want to do a shout out to the comrades in the black house collective in south

27:29

africa i see also that they are online i’m going to mention a little bit of the work too

27:35

um and i as i read the the emmanuel an actor i would say let me

27:42

start first to congratulate you for for the manual and exhibition i wish that i was able to to see the entire

27:48

exhibition but i am so thrilled having this uh manual which is clearly a

27:53

you know labor of commitment and love and so very well done and and very uh carefully thought out and um

28:03

point number four of the the colonial operations manual refers to the triangulation of struggles which in the

28:10

case of the colonized place uh they are mainly indigenous struggle the indigenous

28:16

struggle black liberation struggle and the free palestine struggle and as i thought about about

28:23

the the point the of triangulation and i reflected back on my own work in the

28:28

last uh decade or so um i kind of identified also triangulation

28:33

of of movements with which i have had the uh fortune of being connected each one

28:40

each of which has its own triangulations of course and it’s very plural and rich and one is the you know puerto

28:47

rican decolonization movement and also the afro-caribbean movement for emancipation and decolonization

28:55

but me as a puerto rican also particularly grounded on the puerto rico and recognizing the colonial

29:01

relationship between the u.s and the island of puerto rico and particularly i’ve

29:06

done this within the last few years in conversation with organizations like the colectiva

29:11

feminista in construction which has its own triangulation with black feminism and the colonial thought and the

29:17

colonial feminism and that’s a the colonial formation among others that have been emerging in the island

29:22

uh very strongly also in the spirit doing is doing their own internationalism against border uh which

29:29

is the third point of the the colonial operations manual uh the second one has been the third world liberation front

29:35

and this is coming from um me being a faculty member at uc berkeley in ethnic

29:41

studies and this was a department that emerged out of the third world liberation

29:46

front struggle strike at san francisco state university and uc berkeley in 1969 1960 and 1969 and that was

29:55

the emergence of a coalition of student movements uh black student union um

30:02

asian american pacific islander as the movement chicano latinx latin americans to the

30:08

movement and also the native american and indigenous movement uh which remains as it can also

30:14

have a prison for the kind of collaboration that uh uh one also finds reflected in the in the

30:21

words of the of the man and of course linked to that there is the struggle of decolonizing the university

30:28

and i identify uh uh quite a bit with the words that uh just

30:34

kiran dylan just share with us about this situation being at the university and how to

30:39

extract use what elements and how to do it and how to educate new generations uh not to be uh

30:46

not to use movements not to extract movements for their own uh scholarship based knowledge

30:53

but to leverage the resources in the university mobilize them for the sake of decolonization and transformation that

30:59

remains a a huge challenge and so all of these i see connected with the third world

31:05

liberation front but also can be connected so main one is the uh movement for the

31:12

liberation of asani or south africa and i’ve been fortunate to learn from the uh and collaborate with the

31:17

black house collective on the ground in south africa and with academics now also engage in the effort too in the

31:25

onwards uh decolonize the university this is linked to the 19 2015 and 2016 movements

31:32

uh rosemost fall and christmas fall which fall which fought and still continues to fight for the free

31:38

the colonized university which also involves the fight for having the land back and south africa i

31:43

want to keep it as very key in this dialogue because it is a you say

31:48

it is a space where blackness and indigenity are not like in other places that they seem to be separate and one have to

31:55

connect them they are they are very much integral because black people are indigenous indigenous

32:01

are black people land is to indigenous people but also have been colonized and rendered as

32:06

black so the struggle against colonization against an anti-black racism and against

32:12

anti-indigenity are closely linked along with attention to apartheid because of the history of the struggle

32:18

which connects with the free palestine struggle so i find myself very you know fortunate

32:23

to learn so much from from leaders activists in these areas and this is

32:29

where i am positioned as i come to this conversation

32:35

um thank you thank you all so that’s what we’re kind of bringing into the room one of the conversations i had with

32:42

skylar just in the lead up to this was hearing a little bit more about like

32:49

space and territory and the need for territory and the enclosure and that made me think about

32:55

the experience in palestine at least the land gets taken people get squeezed

33:02

into territory and then there’s nowhere your generations pass and there’s nowhere to go so perhaps

33:10

skyler back to you give us a little bit more about like

33:15

like aside from the principal land back and the right and the treaties and the

33:20

whatever like what it what are the conditions on the ground

33:25

that has led or sparked the the desire to take action and and even the conversations

33:32

about among six nations like what has this been like

33:37

and and what are the reasons for it yeah no absolutely that’s a great

33:43

question i mean um so and that’s something we talked

33:48

about a bit is over the last 100 150 years it doesn’t matter what what town you

33:55

live in what city you you you’re in they’ve all had the opportunity to grow

34:01

as as communities as cities every one of them have grown exponentially over the last

34:07

you know 150 years the only communities in this country that have gotten smaller

34:12

are reserves reserves have a booming population across the country yet here we are the only ones that have

34:19

a restricted space in which we are allowed to grow and so that forces us to grow

34:26

in ways that are not uh traditionally ways that indigenous people live in and you know calling that

34:34

you know covering everything in concrete asphalt in the name of progress that’s not well uh how we live as as indigenous people

34:42

certainly not at six nations and and this is something that is true from just about every reserve that you go to

34:48

is that like if you look in southern ontario there’s one spot of green you look down

34:54

from the google earth there you can see this one spot of green of like dark green

34:59

forest that is you know the virgin forests of six nations that have never been touched before by a plow or a saw

35:06

and this is it is the only spot in all of southern ontario that looks this way

35:11

and it is a very distinct square that you can see when you look look from google earth at six nations

35:18

and so when you uh restrict any of that movement to of growth

35:23

uh it means that we are going to be forced to grow in the very same way that

35:29

our western brothers and sisters have chosen to and so that plowing everything

35:35

under and you know making sure that the every bit of

35:41

every bit of space is utilized to capitalize on um you know to make money from or

35:49

whatever like that like that forcing of the environment

35:56

to benefit us in some kind of way because you know we’re not letting space for the deer and the foxes and the

36:02

animals that that that grow and live around here like this is in for us this community you know we’re a

36:09

you know a hunting community you know we [Music] you know and we’re always talking

36:16

yesterday about going hunting for the first time and and what that meant to go on my first deer when i was you know a young

36:22

teenager you know and what that what that process look like and so when we get hemmed in as a community

36:30

by these massive developments here in six nations like remember everybody needs to understand like this is southern ontario

36:36

you know there’s a quarter of the entire country lives in this area and so when we’re talking about the most lucrative

36:42

bit of real estate that you can find anywhere up and down that from coast to coast uh

36:48

it takes quite a bit and there’s a lot of pressure from government there’s a lot of pressure from police

36:55

to make sure that indigenous people are quiet when it comes to these issues and so to occupy a space that is

37:03

was supposed to be home to 1400 homes that is going to further encroach on our

37:09

lands restricting us from being able to grow anywhere like we can talk about the additions to

37:14

reserve process the atr process that the federal government has put together that has never worked for anybody

37:20

for any any indigenous community across the country and so that that that process is one

37:27

that is you know a nightmare for uh for anybody to try and and grow those

37:33

lands because the the municipality that we’re trying to grow into needs to be able to

37:40

have uh has veto power over whether or not we grow

37:45

and there’s no elected official that’s going to be able to run for office next year if uh you know they’re choosing to have

37:52

their tax base tax base shrink and i went

37:57

and you know the like ann had kind of talked about about that solidarity that we

38:02

that we share amongst each other and um actually was when i was arrested here

38:08

on august 5th um i was also arrested for the solidarity

38:14

blockade that we had done here and blocked one the major highways and railways that kind of came through our

38:19

territory here at six nations and uh was arrested for that as well and

38:24

i think that’s one thing that people need to understand that like all of our communities now are linked in

38:30

ways that we’ve never been before certainly not since before contact

38:35

before all of these big divisions that you know because that’s what the governments and the police the rcmp

38:40

before the opp here and six nations have done over these last 150 years while

38:46

everybody else was growing and growing and growing their borders

38:53

they started to divide our communities and make sure that those reserves were places of isolation and so now in

39:00

2020 2021 now we see those those relationships those

39:06

centuries and centuries year old ties uh that bound us those treaty

39:12

relationships that we have are aren’t something that is new for us this wasn’t

39:17

uh an after contact that we started making treaties we had you know those same treaty relationships

39:23

that are still honored by communities across the country by nations across this country and so

39:29

when anne talks about that solidarity between our nations like that’s something that we hold very

39:34

very close to our hearts and so i think when you know you mess with one of us here

39:41

you’re gonna get the horns from all of us so i mean it’s uh it’s something that we really we really take to heart

39:49

mars you said you had a question or no

39:57

no no not right now okay well just just to kind of follow up on that skyler i’d

40:02

um you know one of the things that i think uh when we were talking and then i and

40:08

then i think it’s a conversation for everyone so it’s not i’m i’m there’s things that i heard from

40:13

skyler that i just want to bring into the room as well and that for everyone to kind of think through

40:18

but like what struck me about what you were describing is that logic being applied to the same

40:26

place i came from in the same ways and in fact in palestine what they do the israeli

40:32

government it encloses you and simultaneously you have nowhere to build so you start

40:38

building illegally but the building illegally then is subject to a fine

40:44

and you also have to pay for the own destruction of the structures that you built illegally

40:50

or else you go to jail or in addition you go to jail and i was just thinking about how like

40:59

it’s it’s not so much for me for my experience it’s not just so much that it’s a

41:04

it’s it’s kind of like to separate you from progress and to make an example of you but it’s

41:11

it’s a slow burn of the continued eradication and genocide

41:16

and taking of the land but it’s the slow burn that doesn’t allow for for people to say that’s a genocide or

41:24

it’s a genocide going on again and so i was wondering just like one last thought

41:30

in your internal conversations to do the encampment to do the deoccupation was it

41:37

was it easy to have that conversation and say it’s time to take direct action and it’s time to kind of

41:43

face internally to face the kind of brunt of the system trying to kind of

41:50

what was that conversation like and i think the same goes for anne you know thinking about that

41:57

um yeah it uh i think you know what those conversations start

42:03

at home for me and those conversations start with my kids

42:09

and so that that conversation with my because i have four daughters that you know i have seen dad go off to

42:15

these you know their entire lives and so there’s always that conversation with

42:20

them that you know like that you know cops uh

42:26

cops have been known to you know arrest us to shoot us to hurt us in lots and lots and lots of

42:32

ways and so you know my youngest daughter cries and and gives me a hug and tells me

42:39

you know i love you and you know and you know let’s see my older daughters that have you know done

42:46

uh you know organized school walkouts when they again when they uh raided in uh

42:52

in this community my my daughter came home from school and and and we were on the highway

43:00

and she got she got brought down and she come and hung out with me and she was like well what can i do

43:06

like what can i do dad like how do i how do i do something to make make this known in

43:12

my school and so i said well what you know we started talking about what that would look like to do a walkout

43:19

and organize a big school in our high school because here in caledonia the staging area

43:26

for the opp provincial police here is directly across the road from the high school and so

43:33

for yeah for our kids to you know have to walk out every day from school to see you know 100 opp cars filling the

43:40

parking lot of a of a school that you know that just arrested their mom that

43:46

that you know had shot at their dad just weeks before you know like these are the like these are the very real

43:51

struggles that you know i think most of us try to think about and

43:57

anticipate before these things happen but i mean when [Music]

44:02

all of that the the weight of the criminalization of of all of it is it’s really something

44:08

that’s hard to kind of fathom before and so when

44:13

you know in this particular one where we seen highways and railways dug up with heavy machinery and roads

44:20

and you know like this the the weight of that that criminalization of us is something

44:27

that’s really hard to try and anticipate for and so it is uh

44:33

yeah it’s a bit of a a hard conversation to have

44:38

uh kind of prior to this because you know you never quite know what’s going to happen or what a win what that

44:44

what that win looks like i think that’s always a conversation for activists in general is you know to have

44:51

that hard conversation with yourself about what with the near within community within

44:57

those circles of you know how how to how what’s the end game here like is that

45:03

something that is possible and so yeah for us that those conversations certainly had to happen

45:09

and and for us i think it uh in this particular circumstance was just to say

45:14

you know what we’re we’re not we’re not going until this land is ours

45:20

thank you and do you do you have anything to kind of share along these lines

45:29

i i definitely hear what skyler is saying in terms of the the criminalization and the

45:34

and also what you’re saying i mean about the strategy of containment um and i think that that’s something

45:41

that we really need to to uh flag and look out for because that is the it’s a call it’s a common tactic

45:49

that’s used um against indigenous people is this you know usually it’s a slow a slow

45:55

containment um and in uh you know our case it’s often

46:01

starts with the movement to the reservation and then a continuous redefining of all of our

46:09

vast traditional territories um in ways that mean that we can no longer

46:14

access them and so uh what’s been happening on what’s owed in territory is that i mean there are these these territories

46:21

that are defined as crown lands even though there’s been no treaty made with the crown um

46:26

and then they they get sort of like slowly used for other purposes and so you have

46:32

this space that’s now defined as a construction site um where it used to be a hunting territory and uh

46:38

you know that that’s the sort of like slow encroachment that writes indigenous people out of our

46:44

own territories and makes daily life um and

46:49

regular daily activities criminal um and you know adds an element of

46:56

danger and i think that’s that’s something that um it’s hard it’s hard to

47:01

uh hard to really get across to people what that what that feels like to be going out hunting and have you

47:08

know police following you or to know that you could run into uh you know

47:13

police with semi-automatic weapons on a trail um about berry picking i think that

47:20

that sort of it it’s a it’s a kind of violence that’s usually not visible

47:25

because it’s out in these spaces that you’re not really seeing and um it eased away at the sense that you

47:31

can just practice this alternative to a like fully colonized existence um and i think

47:39

that’s part of what we really are trying to push against is that you know the only way we live free as

47:46

indigenous peoples and i would expand that to say that you know this is like offering an

47:51

alternative way of living to more than just indigenous peoples is if we’re able to be on our lands

47:57

and to hunt and um gather foods and gather medicines and actually

48:04

sort of disentangle ourselves from the ways that we’ve become dependent on the state um uh

48:11

because that was a that was a tactic of of genocide is to to make us dependent on the state and

48:17

to say we can’t exist without all of these structures that are in place and that’s why these conversations community conversations are difficult

48:24

is because people have been forced into poverty have been forced off of their

48:29

territories through generations of erasure and elimination

48:35

um and any attempts that we have to kind of claw back some of what we’ve lost are met with uh police and guns

48:42

and so um that’s you know that’s why it is a risk it’s a risk to put ourselves

48:48

out on the land and it’s it’s difficult to ask people to do that in community um uh

48:54

because cro like land defense is so criminalized and um you know things that shouldn’t

49:01

shouldn’t feel wrong and shouldn’t feel criminal you end up being you’re getting surveillance and there’s

49:06

helicopters and you’re like i’m just picking berries like this shouldn’t be something i’m feeling like like scared about um but that’s that’s

49:14

what they’re trying to do to us is to to make us a space where um we only can relax and avoid those forms

49:22

of criminalization when we’re like in the little boxes that they’ve put us in um and i really want to honor the work

49:28

that um uh frida houston and and other uh what’s owed in folks have done

49:33

over really decades um in community that this is uh when we see these sort of uh these

49:40

occupations and we see the blockade and we see the raids like that’s the strength and the courage to do that

49:47

is built on years and years and years of very careful community work to get everyone on the same page

49:53

um to talk to people about the importance of standing up to these companies

49:59

uh to try and provide alternatives to you know the benefits agreements and the

50:06

little scraps of money that the the companies are offering to come through come through the lands um it’s it’s

50:13

it’s hard work it’s like really hard work and it um sometimes feels like thankless work

50:18

and uh you know i think that the the people i mean frida especially but other people who’ve been

50:23

standing up on that territory really um you deserve a lot of respect and

50:30

um we need to hold them up because i mean that’s they’re tired they’re tired from years

50:36

and years of that um and it’s not always easy to get your community on board when it requires sometimes like quite a

50:44

serious sacrifice and a serious risk um to just be able to like

50:49

assert that the land belongs you know not to the state that this is a space that you should be able to have access

50:55

to and to protect um so i think there’s definitely a history a history there um

51:02

i just i’m so livid when i read things that are talking about how you know the whitson nation is

51:08

divided i mean it’s this divide and conquer tactic that’s like age old um making it look like you know people

51:15

are just at each other’s throats all the time when really it’s like people trying to strategize how to survive

51:22

um and trying to you know keep each other alive in situations

51:28

where you’re constantly under attack and you know sort of jumping on those

51:34

little bits of division i think is just so irresponsible because um you know what we’ve seen

51:40

i think over over the last you know a couple of years is a really remarkable amount of

51:46

solidarity both within that nation and within you know all of our nations as skyler was talking

51:52

about and um that’s where we should be putting our focus is that that’s possible

51:57

despite all of these attacks and attempts to divide us we’re still standing up for each other um and those

52:03

of us who have access to more privilege and who are um you know have a have a bit of a safety

52:09

net when we put ourselves in these situations i think it’s you know we have a responsibility to step

52:15

up for for others in our communities who aren’t able to do the same

52:20

one one of the things that i think and this is for also for everyone and also for nelson and just kieran because

52:27

the international element or the experiences that are happening across the world right now things that we’re

52:33

related to can inform us a lot about how to move and what are the challenges that we have

52:39

ahead and i think that’s where the manual was coming from and to give you an example these colonial tactics that i’m

52:45

familiar with like the black goat was was rendered like illegal by by israel because

52:51

this is in the 50s because they said oh it’s a very precious thing so they made it illegal but that’s what

52:57

the shepherds had the taking of the land at least in the context of palestine was the taking

53:02

away of being able to survive on your own so then it produces this dependency on the state which leads me

53:08

to this question which is it’s something that i think everyone’s thinking about how do we

53:13

decouple nations from states because what’s happening is that this is not just becoming an indigenous issue or

53:20

in the context of palestine or palestinians the new generation isn’t thinking of state as synonymous

53:25

with self-determination right so it’s forcing us to think about the

53:31

political imaginaries that we can articulate through struggle

53:36

south africa is a reoccurring one because it has the complexity there but

53:42

i think in punjab you’re dealing with a similar thing you know is it is the coming at

53:47

this from like oh well punjab is a sovereign state or palestine as a sovereign state what does

53:53

that do in terms of like our our desire to get free

54:00

in the context of new york the challenges that we see for our movements

54:05

and just to bring it because i think we would love to hear people’s thoughts on it we’re having a lot of issues the role of

54:13

the artist seems to be one of art the role of the educator is one of education within an

54:19

institution the role of like the gentrification struggle is one that has to relate to you know

54:26

displacement so then you have to force the issue of long-term displacement in the conversation you talk about the

54:33

united states and then everyone’s talking about how to get free but you’re saying well it’s also an empire so how can you explain

54:40

the ethiopian soldier who’s shooting palestinian kids in occupied palestine

54:46

the complexities of what’s being raised which is already being said is like the the confluence of

54:52

all these struggles are coming together with such intensification that we can’t like we’re having

54:58

difficulty just upholding one without saying well why aren’t we talking about all of this

55:03

and how do we move together and towards what and how do people retain

55:10

their own thing as we figure it out and what are the debts that we owe each other that we

55:15

need to meet now in terms of solidarity and on what principle

55:21

and i think that that’s that’s kind of what i want to bring to this room that is all you’ve already laid the foundation

55:27

for so ann you know nelson [Music] oh sorry you go knit go ahead mars you

55:35

could go yeah i was just gonna add to that um everything like plus one to everything i

55:41

mean just said but especially when some of the current goals of our movements or the or the futures that

55:47

we’re orienting ourselves towards are at odds with other struggles that we wish to

55:52

stand in solidarity with right so like thinking through historically how black liberation

55:57

and how like reparations and how people are still fighting for 40 acres and a mule um on stolen indigenous land like what

56:05

does that look like but we’re we’re naming that we’re finding these connections between black and indigenous struggles

56:11

through incarceration policing histories of colonialism we’re showing up for each other’s in the streets um

56:17

you know if you if you call on action especially in new york over the past um we’ve noticed like a shift over the

56:23

past probably five to ten years of folks really just being like showing up for

56:29

for anything whether it was what’s happening in the amazon whether it was george floyd or all these different

56:34

things and then we’re there and the energy is there but then we’re at odds with each

56:40

other when we think of how do we move together and how do we move towards some sort of future um there’s

56:46

issues around um you know sovereignty slavery um the settler indigenous binary that

56:52

settler colonial studies sets up fails that’s constantly we they’re you know where does that place a lot of people when you think of

56:58

histories of displacement and dispossession over time where does that leave different folks and so that’s that’s what i would love

57:06

to hear from you guys about because it’s something i’m stuck on someone something that ben said last two weeks

57:12

ago conversation is that this can only happen through um struggle and so i’m wondering what is how how and

57:20

what what does that struggle look like and how do we grow it together

57:26

i don’t know if i should add or we should let people go i feel like is it too much no should i just go okay

57:32

um well i think my mind just just to add to it i think skylar brought up like you know the idea of violence and that you

57:39

know that you know you all are involved in a peaceful deoccupation and i just wanted to add that to the mix also and how

57:45

violence is often weaponized both by the state and then that gets weaponized on

57:50

us as well and i feel like that’s what’s happening like for example just kidding i’m in delhi right now and i’ve been in punjab and so

57:56

you know like just being you know with in front in like in terms of what the farmers are doing very specifically it’s

58:01

you know it’s expanded uh form of land back right because it’s like you know we don’t want land to go to corporations but what that

58:08

does is that specifically because you know it was first initially started by sikhs and there’s like a historical

58:14

label of terrorism on on on you know basically sovereignty in punjab and what the history of the movement there has been

58:20

is that you see that tag kind of come along even with this movement which is around farmers right so so the violence that is there by you

58:27

know both by the end and then this kind of constant emphasis on our part to say this is a peaceful the occupation right

58:32

that’s where a lot of the energy then ends up going right and then i feel like that also kind of produces this this

58:39

kind of energy of harm both ways right because a lot of times what we’ve seen is that divides our communities which is what you were

58:44

talking about android like we actually that there is a divide that then starts becoming which is about either

58:50

assimilation into the system which is saying that you’re violent and then here therefore you know you’re basically trying to prove you’re

58:56

not or like you know you then considered a radical and like in in an outcast right and then you like

59:02

you know be it around media or be around movements or be around anything there’s a whole other kind of a struggle

59:07

that you’re fighting with right and so then that produces that and i feel like that you know you just couldn’t mention a little bit about

59:13

it like in terms of the accumulation of harm which then is you know it didn’t exist but also the transformation and the

59:19

reorientation that is required even within movement building um so just that as a question and then uh

59:27

nelson like you’ve written a lot about aesthetics and the role of aesthetics and i think since we’re having this kind

59:32

of art and movement building conversation if you could add a little bit about you know what aesthetics also mean

59:37

in kind of our movement well specifically within decolonization abolition and anti-imperialism i think that would be

59:44

good yeah

59:50

okay i’m going to jump in i’ll try to be briefish because i want to hear from other people as well

59:56

maybe just to address your point uh natasha about violence i think

1:00:04

in the end it doesn’t matter if we

1:00:09

we spend a lot of time trying to trying to make sure that we are perceived as peaceful

1:00:16

um and in the end that doesn’t actually matter in terms of what kinds of

1:00:23

violence we experience when they came in to raid uh with sodium

1:00:29

territories they had they had snipers pointed at us um

1:00:34

they knew that we weren’t armed uh and in the end they were like well we

1:00:40

know that there were hunting rifles around and so that’s why we needed to check you out with the scope of our

1:00:47

snipers so like in you know in the end it does it doesn’t matter they’re going to use

1:00:52

their violent tactics either way i think we’re probably a little bit less likely to get shot

1:00:58

if we’re not actually holding a rifle but i think that something’s happened in the way that this

1:01:03

um these movements have have developed and i think i think about this a lot um

1:01:08

as i also revisit materials from um my late friend and mentor uh brian

1:01:14

granboy um you know he was the heart of blockades going back

1:01:19

decades in red power movement american indian movement and they were always armed in those

1:01:26

spaces and something happened in the sort of public consciousness that put indigenous people in a position

1:01:33

where we’re not allowed to defend our territories um with those tactics otherwise we’re

1:01:39

written off as as sort of violent radicals or terrorists um something happened there um and i’m

1:01:46

interested in what that shift is and what what the sort of array of tactics are that are acceptable now

1:01:52

and they really require indigenous people to take a huge amount of abuse and violence

1:01:58

without ever pushing back and even the small ways we do push back are immediately

1:02:04

sort of cast as criminal and so it’s a really difficult line to to walk um and i think that’s one of the

1:02:10

places where you know we can use help in terms of public narrative work um you know none of these things should

1:02:16

be defined as terrorist or criminal and so pushing back against that is something that can really help us

1:02:21

um i think to to mars uh questions there i think that that

1:02:30

the question around how we form solidarity is when sometimes we’re we’re looking for different outcomes uh

1:02:37

is so crucial in this moment as part of the reason why i think at least for me in my own

1:02:42

thinking um i think i think the starting point is abolition i think that

1:02:48

uh some of the language that we’ve used indigenous movements can be uh exclusive

1:02:56

and polarizing and i think that some of it we we need to let go if it’s not serving the purposes of

1:03:03

both our liberation and the liberation of black people i think that we need to look at

1:03:11

where our struggles overlap in terms of who our common enemies are and which structures are you know

1:03:19

are we working against and need dismantling and then that’s where we put the energy and i think that’s why the language of

1:03:25

abolition is helpful for me um because it’s like what do we need to actually take apart in order to move

1:03:30

forward um i think when we talk about decolonization a lot people can even though we tell

1:03:37

them again and again and again that it’s not a metaphor like there’s still a way that that folks are holding on to

1:03:43

these structures and think that they can do the work of decolonization while the structures remain intact

1:03:48

and the structures can’t remain intact if we’re gonna get free um so if we think with the language of

1:03:55

abolition first i think we start to think like all right we don’t we’re not going to get anywhere if we still have the police like

1:04:01

let’s get rid of them you know uh abolish that and then we then we can sort of move forward so i think there’s

1:04:07

there’s two things that are happening one is it is like how can we help each other you know dismantle these things that are killing us

1:04:14

and then how can we like really work on um stretching our imaginations to think

1:04:19

about the world we want to live in uh on the other side of that like what’s the what kind of relations do we want to

1:04:25

have with each other who do we want to be welcoming onto our territories um and then how do we sort of build

1:04:31

towards that so i think sometimes the light we get stuck on the language of sovereignty um

1:04:37

uh i think that that can you know be a powerful move against a particular

1:04:42

a particular force like i want to talk in terms of sovereignty and i’m speaking directly to the canadian state

1:04:48

um to be like you don’t have you don’t have it you don’t have sovereignty like we do um you know but when i’m talking to

1:04:54

other people who you’re right aren’t aren’t you know appropriately cast as as in this sort of settler indigenous

1:05:01

binary um then yeah i don’t i don’t want to talk about like how we’re going to somehow

1:05:06

have like supreme authority in in the aftermath of all of this i

1:05:11

want to talk about how we build relations now how we like all all can work on being in

1:05:17

better relation with the land um and that i think is uh you know there’s

1:05:22

some work that we need to do within uh indigenous movements to make sure that we’re not imagining a future

1:05:28

um without our our black friends and comrades and relatives like on our territories

1:05:35

um i think that’s a that’s a huge mistake um is to sort of do this imagining and then sort of just like

1:05:41

you know who’s going to be there with us like i’ll see the people who are throwing down for us now so like let’s build them in right now into

1:05:48

sort of how we talk about other ways of governing and like relating to each other um and i think

1:05:55

that yeah that’s that’s partially in digging deep into our personal relations as well and thinking about how the

1:06:01

framework of abolition helps us take that uh the ways that we’re relating out of

1:06:07

the carceral like we really still treat each other um like we’re treated by police and

1:06:13

um you know that’s gotta stop we’ve gotta find ways of relating to each other that aren’t carceral that aren’t about you know

1:06:19

removing people and um you know policing them and uh

1:06:24

figuring out how we actually live together in this space i think is that imagination work that’s that’s

1:06:29

really important um so yeah i would rather you know let go of some some terms if they’re not serving us

1:06:36

and really focus on like who’s our common enemy where are they vulnerable um and where are we different

1:06:41

differently positioned to like really work you know work to to bring these structures down and i think

1:06:48

that the um all the actions that that were happening after the murder of george floyd really sort of

1:06:53

showed a little bit of that and i think that um you know there were indigenous people on the ground in minneapolis and

1:06:58

other spaces who really stepped up and then i think there’s a lot of a lot of others um who you know we were a little slow on the

1:07:05

uptake to sort of figure out where where we where we fit and there are a lot of statements that came pretty late

1:07:13

i think you can say you’re in solidarity and uh you know that that’s fine but you’ve got

1:07:18

to do better than that and i think for me that’s that focus on really bringing down these systems and

1:07:24

um you know having the courage to say like no let’s actually let’s actually

1:07:30

imagine a world without police here and then how would we actually organize together to make that happen

1:07:36

that’s been really important

1:07:41

yeah i just want to jump in there too and like that’s um you know and trying to frame what we’re

1:07:48

doing all the time isn’t is is con a constant conversation about

1:07:53

how to frame ourselves as not being the terrorists you know like the here in caladonia the mayor of alderman

1:08:01

county has come out you know over and over and over again to call us terrorists and to you know for defending our lands

1:08:08

and in the in the peaceful way that we have we still manage to you know try and control the narrative around

1:08:15

what that looks like but it’s a constant uh constant thought for us

1:08:20

around you know how like how am i being portrayed how like and so you know that

1:08:27

uh this idea that if you know we we smile and we’re nice but if we’re if

1:08:33

we’re angry then we’re terrorists you know if we’re if we’re yelling and screaming and jumping up and down you know like this

1:08:38

is then it changes it changes what that narrative looks like

1:08:43

and so for us to have taken lots and lots and lots of time to

1:08:50

you know make sure that uh every time that we’re we’re speaking about whatever

1:08:56

uh in this is that you know reiterating that peaceful occupation of our lands you

1:09:03

know that this isn’t an armed struggle this isn’t uh this is the the all of that and you know

1:09:11

with solidarity stuff that folks have been doing um you know and bringing boots to the

1:09:16

ground here like that like all of that is you know crucially important to

1:09:22

to any of these movements and you know i think uh a lot of the capacity stuff that you

1:09:28

know people have uh certainly now in the age of uh covet stuff like we

1:09:34

we really need to try and utilize the the people that we have in the best ways

1:09:40

that we can because if we’re not uh bringing people together

1:09:46

like there’s like if we don’t have people on the ground here like all of the political moves that

1:09:52

that folks have been making to try and bring community together within six nations and that outreach uh to the feds in their

1:10:00

province and you know select politicians within that and the advocacy work that’s going on there

1:10:06

like all of that all of that work means nothing if this if if you know how

1:10:12

to show me people aren’t on the land here you know and so to make sure that we’re doing all of the things

1:10:18

and you know have our have all the of the wheels turning all the time like it is that is that that is a big part of

1:10:26

this is making sure that you know every every facet of this is going along but framing ourselves is

1:10:34

uh in that peaceful light all the time is is sometimes not always not always easy

1:10:40

because like there are things that politicians do there are things that the cops do that are absolutely infuriating

1:10:47

and to try and keep that that mode of of of peace and of uh

1:10:53

you know the to hear the haldeman county uh uh come out is calling us terrorists

1:11:02

and uh you know have them uh prod along the opp to continue to

1:11:10

um go after my family you know in my family

1:11:16

my parents are you know under 70 in their 70s my my kids are teenagers you know and like

1:11:22

this is something that the ultimate county police services board has advocated for since the beginning of

1:11:27

this is that the the defining us is terrorists like it’s a it’s absolutely ridiculous

1:11:34

and infuriating um justgear and nelson i think this is

1:11:42

an area i would love you also your thoughts

1:11:54

nelson do you want to go first or go for it [Laughter]

1:12:02

um okay i’ll start quickly and then you can just jump in sure um you know make sure i leave ty uh

1:12:09

you know some space and time if there are additional questions folks want to raise too um yeah i just wanna you know i think

1:12:16

there’s been so much why so many wise things that have been said so far and so much with so much i think um thoughtfulness

1:12:23

and reflection um so i’ve really just been sitting here listening and thinking and absorbing all

1:12:28

of that and and taking it in and sort of um thinking about how it it sort of it resonates deeply with me

1:12:35

and i think are are also some of the um ways that i’ve been thinking about

1:12:40

what it means to um engage in a revolutionary movement

1:12:47

for you know radical social transformation across the planet um and so i was also like thinking

1:12:54

about some of the um points that were raised about the sort of differentiation

1:12:59

between the nation and the state and i mean i think those those that terminology and those frames are

1:13:05

are traps that are very easy to get caught in a whirlpool around um and so i i feel like part of what i’m

1:13:13

hearing people say too or are like thinking through the ways that we um our histories are co-constituted and

1:13:20

as collectives with certain like commitments responsibilities and political goals we

1:13:27

would be better served by spending our time sort of understanding that co-constitution

1:13:33

and then figuring out places of alignment where we want to work together to be able to create the kind

1:13:39

of world that we want to live in because the reality is that here is there and there is here

1:13:44

so you can be engaged in uh you know a movement for um you know

1:13:51

a specific kind of liberation struggle a political struggle here for example in in on turtle island

1:13:58

but you know because of the way that our world is structured through global racial capitalism

1:14:03

we’re intricately tied to what’s happening in so many other parts of the world not

1:14:09

to mention us militarization and the presence of you know the us

1:14:14

military canadian mining corporations peacekeeping troops that are part of the united nations

1:14:19

right the security council western state power all the ways in which the places that we live in here are tied

1:14:26

to the places that we care about there so like here and there feels like important to think of in terms of

1:14:33

collective people power and shared political history but also a set of political goals

1:14:39

um i think it’s challenging to think through what a set of political goals look like in the abstract but if you

1:14:46

start to think through the sort of the histories that you’re struggling against and the institutional structures and the state formations

1:14:52

and the formations of global capital that you’re also fighting against it becomes easier i think to articulate

1:14:58

an agenda for free that is shared and has like points of connection

1:15:04

um and differences too that probably and will always exist but but there is a

1:15:09

kind of shared commitment to moving forward um and and i do think the stakes are are

1:15:16

incredibly high and i also think that our movements need a great deal of work um and time in thinking about how this

1:15:23

is going to be possible yeah well building on on on precisely

1:15:30

these points um i think the case of of well first off you know of the americas

1:15:39

generally you know south america and so on and australia where uh so many indigenous

1:15:44

communities are facing uh um you know expropriation and extermination still and that’s

1:15:51

certainly you know so we’re talking not only about is both local but also very global uh kind of issue and it reflects

1:15:58

itself and extend itself in different ways for example even in the case of puerto rico

1:16:04

where after the hurricane maria and the devastation of hurricane maria uh many people died many people left the

1:16:12

island to the uh us territories

1:16:17

and then and that open space then for uh private corporations private entities

1:16:25

in the territories of the us then buying uh property and buying uh land

1:16:31

in the island and that becoming another way right the crisis becoming another way of

1:16:36

losing uh uh territory now you’re in a cond you’re this is happening while you’re living in a colonial

1:16:42

condition which means that even when you have the title to the land that doesn’t mean that that makes the

1:16:48

people in there sovereign of the land right you’re you are a kind of uh uh you have a title but

1:16:55

that doesn’t necessarily translates into political sovereignty uh that’s a problem just as it is a problem also the idea that you are just

1:17:02

still buying land and therefore you are being kind of completely connected into the regime of

1:17:09

private property property which points to the question of what are the other

1:17:15

views of land and living in land and living with each other that we need to cultivate so as to though when we fight for

1:17:22

decolonization or emancipation we’re not simply reproducing the terms

1:17:27

that we are given that we have been given and these catastrophic terms have that have led us to be disconnected

1:17:34

from each other and disconnected from the environment and disconnected from life in the environment and that

1:17:39

is a a formidable challenge i think in the island you have seen of

1:17:45

course movements that have sought to advance or cultivate sustainable forms of

1:17:51

you know of cultivation of of relating the dilemma with each other but there is

1:17:56

so much to learn from movements and and people who have been dealing with this for for

1:18:01

centuries we have but there’s also there have been kind of in some sectors there have been

1:18:07

a gap with let’s say ancestral uh forms of connecting with the land if we have in puerto rico has been mainly

1:18:13

through the presence of the african diaspora in the island right and afro-puerto ricans and afro

1:18:19

spirituality and arts and aesthetics that have kept another kind of way of relating to

1:18:26

each other and the land but also disconnected from the rest of the caribbean and other places so we need to do a lot of work of

1:18:31

maintaining that connection and reconnection and uh uh let me also take bring back

1:18:37

the the the uh the manual because you know one thing

1:18:43

that struck me about the manual when the manual begins where we begin and i think where we begin the first

1:18:49

part is recognizing precisely the condition of the the

1:18:54

kind of catastrophic fragmentation that exists coloniality create this catastrophic fragmentation

1:19:00

that makes it uh extremely difficult to generate decolonization because it means

1:19:05

that it is not only separating yourself from the from the from the colonizer is how do you then

1:19:11

build a new kind of relationship with the colonizer with each other and you form another reality

1:19:17

um and again when the main concepts that have been circulating around having given most prominence they

1:19:23

have been complicit in the fragmentation in the first place nation state and sovereignty and also

1:19:28

concepts so how do you employ those concepts critically and generate all the concepts and other ideas and i think that

1:19:35

some of those ideas are already uh um you know are echoed in the in the manual for

1:19:40

example when in the manual you write that um when we when we breathe we breathe

1:19:46

together what is that about breathing that might be so key when thinking our of our common humanity on

1:19:52

our vulnerable condition on earth and what it means to preserve our relations when we walk uh we do not run because we

1:19:59

are going very far uh that also appears in the manual that’s also walking and thinking and weaving also our

1:20:06

activities that have been central many communities in gabi ayala completely about ways of cultivating form and

1:20:12

creating new forms of of reality and really having the coloniality emerge from these new practices of being together

1:20:19

and also strike me uh just to end with this that in the in the first point when we begin uh

1:20:25

all the kind of the main actions that appear in your first point of the manual are all

1:20:32

about forms of relationality starting with offering is one it has to do with gift

1:20:37

giving too uh standing with our relations is the second one that appears in text

1:20:42

a call a call calling is also another way of connecting with others and finally taking responsibility to act

1:20:50

so right now it’s clear that that you know in order to begin any any kind of movement you have to begin to opposing

1:20:57

this catastrophe fragmentation i’m beginning to put out the center of the of the table

1:21:03

new forms of relationality now when mars is tracing this question it is coming from the practice this is

1:21:08

much more difficult much more difficult to do than is to say it but saying it is important and it

1:21:14

remains as a guide in terms of what is said but also what is visualized in aesthetics

1:21:20

and also uh uh represented in movements uh this morning i was listening to a

1:21:26

bomba class in puerto rico it’s an afro puerto rican music and i was talking with a colleague of mine

1:21:31

carter karemates about the resonances of that and the music and rhythms and the

1:21:37

spirituality of mardi gras indian community in new orleans for example right and so all of the these pieces

1:21:43

also are there we need to continue also building on on them including the relationship with our indigenous

1:21:49

sisters and brothers across the globe which is one of the reasons among many why this conversation is so

1:21:54

important um great thank you this is really um

1:22:00

we’re going to open it up for conversation for questions so we’re going to pass it on to sally but i just

1:22:06

want to put one thing in around violence and non-violence and peaceful protests and

1:22:11

the limitations that are sometimes imposed by the state through laws and

1:22:18

and deterrence both specific deterrents so that you don’t do it and general deterrence so

1:22:24

that they make examples out of you and you saw in the george floyd moment that was the first thing they did when

1:22:30

people burned cop cars right and no one to my knowledge

1:22:36

the level of support for that you know wasn’t that wide spread

1:22:43

which is something that we should take account for at least in new york city when when the cop cars got burnt but

1:22:50

that changed the trajectory of what we saw as a potential uprising and the limitations of that potential

1:22:56

uprising and the changing of the tactics that were deployed and the policing of each other on the

1:23:03

streets which was a very odd thing but when i look back to palestine it happens

1:23:11

as well because you have young kids that want to throw rocks at israeli army patrols that are passing

1:23:19

by but the but the person the palestinian who owns the store says don’t do it in front of my shop

1:23:27

right don’t do it in my neighborhood don’t do it in my city because of the

1:23:34

consequences of that right and i think that one of the most important things that at

1:23:42

least i remember being brought up with is that

1:23:47

the way we fight domination and oppression shouldn’t be limited and we shouldn’t

1:23:53

try to limit others and how they fight back because we’re not in that same position

1:23:59

though we may all be palestinian and in the process of trying to limit

1:24:05

our tactics strategically in order to exact wins

1:24:11

that has been where it led us with the palestinian struggle we’re now at a point in which oh there

1:24:19

will be a peace process but you have to you have to stop fighting back in this particular way

1:24:25

then the peace process results in 10 000 more settlements more land back more land taken and then

1:24:32

you’re like well now what do we do so they buy time through this mechanism and ironically our experience has been

1:24:40

even with the guggenheim that was the same experience they didn’t give a about the stuff that we were doing here

1:24:46

because it’s a colonial logic right when we were fighting back against them building

1:24:52

guggenheim abu dhabi with with migrant labor we took direct action we took over their walls we kind of

1:24:58

exacted we shut down the museum and then they said okay we’ll talk but

1:25:03

we’ll talk on but you have to stop the direct action so it’s not so much that it’s violence

1:25:10

and non-violence but what are the ways in which we can resist that are unsanctioned that that actually

1:25:17

create leverage and level blows but that’s not the main strategy the main strategy is to find each other

1:25:24

and to create transformative spaces to build these kind of relations

1:25:30

so maybe you know i’ll just end with like this point around violence and

1:25:36

non-violence i have never seen that it’s helpful to try to think of it in terms of like

1:25:41

convincing others as an as you said i think it’s more of like what are the strategies and tactics that

1:25:47

we need to deploy for effective resistance it’s always a question of strategy and

1:25:54

tactics it’s never one of morality or one of modernity or one of civilized or one of whatever

1:26:01

okay sally um back to you

1:26:06

okay i’m just going to hop right in here with the first question um it’s from frank schofield to all the

1:26:12

panelists but it’s first directed towards uh jess kira how do you define or do good political

1:26:19

education that cultivates and inspires political movements

1:26:27

uh i mean i think others should jump in i think this is a big question um but i mean one of the things i’ve

1:26:34

been thinking about is how we learn from

1:26:39

the histories of past struggles and how in order for you in order for us to be able to think

1:26:45

through the you know the creation of a set of political goals that are agreed upon by multiple communities that have a

1:26:52

kind of integrity and are you know informed by a commitment and a

1:26:58

responsibility i feel like we have to do some work to understand our own histories and our own ways of

1:27:05

coming into being in our own sense of epistemology and and how we understand the world and the frameworks that we use

1:27:11

to to draw from um and i have been you know thinking about what it means to

1:27:17

do this kind of work um within the university to some regard because that’s where i’m located and spend some of my

1:27:23

time time teaching but more um recently um outside of the university

1:27:28

not that there’s you know a sort of not that there isn’t a permeable boundary between the two but

1:27:35

in spaces where people are interested in sharing their histories and and

1:27:41

joining conversations in ways that may seem unlikely at the start so instead of a

1:27:48

predetermined list of people that we know are experts that have experiential

1:27:53

knowledge about these things that can speak to these ideas to pull people together in

1:27:58

neighborhoods and in communities that already carry knowledge and experiences they’re just not identified as

1:28:04

or labeled or categorized as the people that can speak to these things necessarily and so i think to be less

1:28:11

predetermined about the kinds of conversations and the kinds of assemblages of people

1:28:17

that come together in some form and i’m i’m i’ve been really thinking back to

1:28:23

some of the work of anti-colonial feminists that i’ve learned from over the years who i actually sharpened

1:28:31

my teeth on political organizing with when i was 18 years old and first moved to saskatoon on the prairies

1:28:36

and it was actually a coalition of native women of immigrant women of women that were west african migrants

1:28:44

that had come to the city and they were working together in coalition trying to do this work of figuring out

1:28:51

how to develop a shared political agenda in a city that was has a long history

1:28:58

of um you know colonial violence against indigenous people is incredibly segregated and divided has

1:29:04

strong assimilation tactics for migrants and immigrants arriving and um so i started to i’m i’m starting

1:29:11

now to think about all those things that i learned when i first began sort of um educating myself about

1:29:19

political work and what it means to do solidarity work and i’m actually finding that to be a

1:29:25

really refreshing return um and i think social media i will also say this

1:29:31

i’m really not a social media person but i i also feel like the kind of the the sort of trafficking of

1:29:36

personality and celebrity on social media has created an entirely new set of

1:29:44

issues for us to deal with within social movement work not that there’s not strategic ways to draw on social media

1:29:50

to be able to advance a political cause but it’s also created an entire way of relating that i feel like

1:29:56

in many ways undermines our ability to understand one another in a real way

1:30:03

can i just build on some of those comments just kieran because i think uh what i hear you saying and

1:30:10

others too is the the absolute importance of face-to-face work uh in the flesh organizing and i think

1:30:18

obviously over the duration of the pandemic we’ve we’ve gotten very deprived to say the least of that

1:30:26

of that kind of experience and also nostalgic for it but so when i hear political education i

1:30:34

think about public education and i think about the social media landscape and the information landscape

1:30:40

in general we just turn on our devices and we are completely inundated by political education it may

1:30:47

not be the kind of political education that we you know the that uh speaks to our political

1:30:55

positions but we’re inundated by it and i think all the more reason why direct action and

1:31:02

and in the flesh organizing becomes all the more important uh that’s why the pipeline uh

1:31:09

struggles and land back lane and standing rock and others really stand

1:31:15

out because it’s those moments when people put themselves their bodies on the line

1:31:21

and take position on the land that crystallizes the attention in a way

1:31:27

i think that nothing on the information or social media landscape does these days people uh

1:31:34

people are increasingly uh they they want to block out most of what’s

1:31:40

coming towards them but you can’t you can’t ignore the direct action

1:31:45

and and and so i think uh it’s a false dichotomy obviously between

1:31:50

political education and direct action because direct tax to form a political education

1:31:57

but i i i really appreciate the attention everyone’s given to

1:32:02

uh struggles actually on the ground which involve face-to-face work

1:32:16

maybe i’ll just echo what um what jess giron was talking about around the need to

1:32:25

really focus on history i think that that’s that’s really important that we understand

1:32:31

um our own histories and then the histories of of the people that we’re working with but i think it comes down to one of the

1:32:38

you know what was one of the central um sort of

1:32:43

ideas that helped uh form around decolonize this place is to really start with

1:32:48

like who we are as a collective um when we talk about the community like

1:32:53

who are we talking about who’s here or who should be here if they’re not here and

1:32:59

and then what do we need to know about each other in order to be working together in in the most

1:33:05

effective way um i think that’s one of the things that during sort of pandemic times we can we can do some of the work there

1:33:12

um just to dig into those histories and try and figure out what it is we need to know about each other in order to to move

1:33:19

forward most effectively and what what are the histories of struggle that we can build on

1:33:26

as we move forward i think there’s another piece of political education we separate the political from the

1:33:32

practical but i think it’s worth asking what it is what what are we learning for you know

1:33:39

what’s what’s the purpose of of acquiring knowledge um around the political

1:33:45

and i think that uh there’s all sorts of forms of learning that we need to do in order to

1:33:51

inhabit the world in a better way um and to build uh capacity and skill um in our own

1:33:59

movements and lives in order to get there um so i think about you know there’s definitely a need for

1:34:05

for more reading and history and oral history and learning about uh other people’s struggles and our own struggles um

1:34:11

there’s also a need for building like practical skills that lead us to where we want to go um we

1:34:19

want the land back can we live on the land you know can we start a fire uh

1:34:24

you know can we can we hunt can we gather the things can we cook for each other there’s all sorts of sort of

1:34:29

practical skill building that i think are part of the work of political education um and it’s about inviting people into

1:34:36

spaces where you can do that kind of capacity building collectively so that we’re actually able

1:34:41

to focus on some of some of the other the other uh direct action of the all

1:34:47

the other work um when we’re sort of in the work of survival

1:34:52

it can be it can feel really hard to kind of jump back and do i learn the histories

1:34:58

and do the reading and that kind of thing so i think we need to bring those things together and not not think of them as separate um that it

1:35:05

should be the people who we’re cooking with and um you know living with and that

1:35:10

the work of living together as is part of the theoretical work we’re doing also

1:35:16

i mean i think that’s the idea around the difference between just the idea to just survive or to thrive as

1:35:22

communities right and i mean like we can say over and over and over

1:35:27

again that you know we’ve been dispossessed of our lands we’ve been uh oppressed by we’ve been over

1:35:34

incarcerated by we’ve but if there isn’t people that are willing to do the on-the-ground work

1:35:40

that uh that we’re doing like it really needs there there needs to be

1:35:46

some catalyst for those conversations to start happening and if we’re not uh you know making

1:35:52

those spaces like this one even yeah i know it being virtual and

1:35:57

what have you but i mean to be able to i know for myself uh you know going to ipperwash is a very

1:36:04

very young teenager after dudley george was shot you know like being shown what that

1:36:10

means for like that’s the education for me that that i that was very important to give

1:36:16

to my kids is they grew up you know as you know we took over a police station when my kids

1:36:22

were quite young and you know we occupied that for several months and like it was

1:36:29

this is work that is ongoing that needs to keep on like that education piece

1:36:35

around uh i really can’t stress that enough but you know and i know for academic folks that

1:36:42

that’s in the schools and in universities and colleges but for uh for folks like myself like that that

1:36:49

education starts at home that’s you know having those conversations with our parents with our

1:36:54

our uncles our aunties are you know the the cousins that you know that we can

1:37:01

you know push them to to have those conversations that are hard because like

1:37:06

you know the trauma that comes with doing the on the ground work like like we’ve we’ve had we indigenous

1:37:15

people in this country have had a hard goal and there’s lots and lots of people who have

1:37:21

you know had to sit through jail like the last time in 2006 after the gunnistato happened like you know that

1:37:27

was a year of my life in a in a tent in a bush and then seven months in jail like four months of

1:37:32

that was sitting in in segregation in the hole so i mean like this is this like this is

1:37:38

something that for for folks that you know are willing to to to put your ass on the line to you know

1:37:46

push these to push the push the movement forward like it

1:37:51

it does take that education but at the same time like you know supporting the folks that are

1:37:57

are doing the heavy lifting like the folks that come in here with us you

1:38:02

know almost eight months ago now like i really gotta take my hat after the fact

1:38:07

that they’re that they’re still here you know and like some of the ally folks that that i know that have you know came in

1:38:14

here with us on day one and still continue to support and all the amazing ways that they do like

1:38:19

i really i can’t say enough about how grateful i am to the to those people that you know are

1:38:26

willing to to you know to do and be all of the ways and make it to to make

1:38:33

this happen because like there’s you know there’s no one two three ten people that can make this

1:38:39

happen like this is it is it needs to be community driven and if that

1:38:45

if you’re able to kind of cultivate those relationships and in community like that’s what it

1:38:51

takes to to really be able to push these push these issues to the forefront

1:39:01

um sally i just want to point something out that because we’re running over time uh some of us may have to leave and

1:39:09

that’s okay but just kieran’s one of them we should try to field the questions that remain perhaps

1:39:16

bunch them three or four that could help kind of encapsulate that and just hear before you leave if you

1:39:23

have any thoughts you want to share with the group please please do

1:39:31

okay i’m gonna ask the question um this one is it’s sort of specific to

1:39:38

arts institutions but i think it has it relates to all of the things all of the

1:39:43

um threads that were in today’s conversation it’s from harry burke it’s thank you for

1:39:48

this beautiful convening i’m really appreciating the careful insightful exchange i have a question that brings

1:39:54

us back to the exhibition space as a site for staging discussions about sovereignty and land struggles

1:39:59

art galleries tend to reify or privilege a certain kind of engagement with representation it seems that each of you as artists and

1:40:06

organizers are nurturing relation relational solidarities that extend beyond the represented

1:40:12

representational field or pictorial plane is there a relation here to the demand that cultural institutions do

1:40:17

more than iterate this significant yet arguably sometimes symbolic gesture of land acknowledgement and to materially engage

1:40:24

with land back movements might there be an important unresolved tension between representational and

1:40:30

and reciproc reciprocal strategies within decolonial aesthetics

1:40:36

and is this something that you found ways to work through in your own art making and community building

1:40:49

just kidding why don’t you go ahead first because you need to leave so uh do you do you want to say anything i

1:40:54

think there are others that are much better suited to answer that question than than i so please go ahead i can

1:41:00

stay for a few more minutes i’ll i’ll write in the chat when i’m ready to leave sorry sorry i have to run everyone no no

1:41:05

worries well first of all shout out to harry um before you know anything else um

1:41:11

nelson do you want to say something or end before we you know because there’s deep tp we can ramble on for two hours about

1:41:18

this specific question uh it would be good to hear from others yeah yeah

1:41:23

we’re all about that you know this relates specifically to the problem we’re facing and i would say

1:41:29

this like if you look at palestinians right right now they’re just doing drawings and

1:41:34

paintings because we want to sell it in dubai right because that’s what ends up happening right so the market

1:41:40

dictates that and i think that we saw this in the context of the whitney organizing for example

1:41:46

you know even though we didn’t call for people to boycott we didn’t call for people we said resist in all the ways you deem

1:41:52

appropriate based on your diverse you know different positionalities that you hold but i think that there’s

1:41:59

the role of the artist and the role of the curator and the role of the institution right now we

1:42:05

want to hear how these things i mean just to add just to add a little bit to it i think

1:42:11

what ends up happening is that because of just how of course the media works through these you know struggles and how it represents

1:42:17

like because a lot of the conversation once again is happening through social media or media in general what you end up happening what you end

1:42:23

up seeing is fall dichotomies like false binaries that get constructed right in this case being like oh as if

1:42:30

uh you know the abolition of the institution or the kind of like you know going moving beyond this

1:42:35

pictorial representational plane and like really addressing the structural cost is at the cost of having that

1:42:41

representational thing that the system’s running uh on its own right now within the diversity equity inclusion system right

1:42:47

um so then you’re basically once again pitted against like you know this false binary that exists and so

1:42:53

yeah i just wanted to add that

1:43:05

there’s a phrase that has appeared in new york on banners and actions and around um

1:43:11

different struggles which is you know public land equals stolen land

1:43:17

and you know the kind of the historical reframing that that does i wonder what that means for how um

1:43:25

we think about universities and art galleries that are you know public and just sort of what

1:43:31

that yeah and what the imperative of land back could mean for those kinds of

1:43:37

institutions and i know it depends on you know very specific contexts and circumstances

1:43:43

in different places but um you know just in the way in which both the

1:43:48

university and the art gallery also oftentimes or as perry was saying places

1:43:53

that talk a lot about principles of solidarity and justice

1:43:59

but what does the material enactment of that what could that actually involve at different kinds of

1:44:05

institutions um that is is i just wanted to kind of echo that that kind of kernel of what harry was um was

1:44:11

posing you know and uh if i may very very quickly just

1:44:18

to add one more layer to that that you’re all aware but you know you have how do these

1:44:23

institutions relate to the land back movements uh but the other question is

1:44:29

how do they relate to repatriation movements i mean one thing is how can they actually ask for uh

1:44:36

giving the land back but not giving the artworks and stolen artifacts back uh

1:44:43

of course that would be contradiction but that would be another and maybe they would be afraid of of speaking about

1:44:48

having the land back because they know that they cannot get away of saying that without also saying

1:44:53

giving the art and giving what they took back from the lands back

1:45:02

i mean you know this is a sticking point and i’ll just i’ll crystallize it and i’ll say it with a lot of love and care but

1:45:09

when you’re when you’re forced into these kind of colonial conditions and generations pass

1:45:15

then seeing yourself on a wall of a place that’s precious becomes affirming to humanity that’s

1:45:23

been under attack for so long no one wants to diminish that but it’s a

1:45:29

cycle that we’re facing because then you have to talk with the people that you want to be in solidarity

1:45:35

with and you have to say look if we keep agreeing to doing this they’re using some of us

1:45:43

as shields for a broader attack on them or the dismantling of them

1:45:51

to produce other sites that can allow for other ways of resistance

1:45:57

so how you know it’s a situation in new york city in particular because

1:46:03

the people that got fired the the more money now is going to come after the pandemic more money is going

1:46:10

to come from more up people that are going to determine the nature of the aesthetics

1:46:15

and they’re going to give some people more diversity and equity and inclusion but what they’re going to do in the

1:46:22

process what they’re going to do is kind of shield themselves from a broader moment in which land must be returned

1:46:29

must be repatriated with role of their place right and the

1:46:36

inclusion of one curator two creators three curators with a broad kind of framework

1:46:42

around abolition and decolonization and what have you still remains within the confines of it

1:46:48

being framed by people with a lot of money that are imprisoned incarcerate kill

1:46:54

sell extract so this contradiction that we’re facing right now is part of how

1:47:01

it relates to aesthetics in our institutions and it’s a hard conversation to have

1:47:07

because no one wants to diminish the struggles that have come before that have led to issues to being more

1:47:14

represented more included but if i’m a person who’s

1:47:19

also seeing the struggle from a palestinian standpoint i don’t want to be included in this up system

1:47:25

and i’m not going to celebrate more inclusion into a up system but i also know why that’s not just a

1:47:32

choice for me it’s a choice for others this is the conversation this is the moment in new york where it’s coming to

1:47:39

a head and i think that it’s whether it’s an indigenous struggle or whether it’s black liberation and

1:47:47

abolition whether it’s anti-imperialism or gender or queerness

1:47:53

or you know you know epstein at moma relationship you know it’s it’s endless

1:48:01

so what do we do there and how can a gallery like guelph for example support the land back

1:48:07

lane movement there in a material way

1:48:12

that is building on the acknowledgement that just came at the beginning of this conversation

1:48:22

well i mean i think that doing this you know like and i think that’s the

1:48:28

capacity to be able for uh you know the university of museums um

1:48:33

for those curators to be able to allow for space for these conversations to exist

1:48:40

to be able to um not only make them something that can happen but encourage

1:48:47

them to happen for uh those conversations that i was talking about that need to

1:48:53

start at home that that bringing those people in that aren’t just the academics of the world that aren’t

1:48:58

just the uh people with letters behind their name but people that have done the work

1:49:04

because i think this is an important distinction certainly in in indigenous communities anyways is

1:49:10

that not you know i don’t none of my none of the

1:49:15

teachers that i’ve had have ever had a series of letters behind their name you know the the people that have what

1:49:21

taught me about the land and taught me about my connection to it like these are these are the elders of

1:49:28

our community people that you know sat with their grandmothers and their grandmothers before them to be able to teach us what it takes to

1:49:36

do this kind of work and i think that bit around uh and i’m not saying that by any means

1:49:44

trying to harp on the academic folks of the world to say that you know this that you guys shouldn’t do

1:49:50

this or that or whatever that that work is important as well but to understand that like

1:49:57

that bit of privilege that not very many certainly from our

1:50:02

community anyway are able to access because of the you know

1:50:07

several centuries of trauma and hardship and you know this possession that we’ve all

1:50:13

accumulated over those those hundreds of years and so i think that it alienates a lot of people when we don’t try and

1:50:20

engage those uh those people that might not uh uh

1:50:29

understand what it means to be in this room or in uh and so i think

1:50:36

that that that alienating people is something that we really need to work on to be able to bring people into the fool to

1:50:42

make sure that people are understanding exactly what it is that’s going on in the language that we use i think is

1:50:48

very important when we do that work because if we’re going to you know

1:50:54

make these academic conversations uh ones that are inaccessible to the people

1:51:00

that could actually do the work that could do that are willing to put their asses on

1:51:06

the line to make sure that their kids and their grandkids because this isn’t about

1:51:11

you know what i’m going to write my thesis paper on this is about making sure that my grandkids at least have an

1:51:16

argument that this land is theirs when it comes time for them to make this same stand

1:51:26

i really really agree with that um that these are spaces that need to function for

1:51:32

people who have been historically excluded from them but that inclusion

1:51:37

itself is not is not enough um i’m reading a new book from

1:51:45

kathryn mckittrick there’s a chapter in the book the book’s called dear science um she’s a black geographer

1:51:53

feminist geographer i i think that there’s a piece of that that really resonated with me

1:51:58

um just talking about she repeats it over and over again uh how description is not liberation and i

1:52:05

think the same thing goes when we’re talking about uh aesthetic practice when we’re talking

1:52:12

about representation that a lot of that can happen without

1:52:17

liberation even being part of the goal um it’s just about getting out there and getting the word out and getting

1:52:23

you know getting these images out in the public sphere and that doesn’t do what we want it to do um

1:52:29

so i think if we if we think about art as practice and as method then

1:52:34

um we can open up a discussion about what it’s what it’s for what it’s leading

1:52:40

towards um and are we engaging with aesthetic practices in ways that are leading towards liberation

1:52:47

i think there are ways to mobilize um in that direction but you know i i want

1:52:54

to i want to skip a lot of the discussion with uh art institutions and curators and you

1:53:00

know if if they can’t figure out a way to work for us then i’m kind of like well it like i

1:53:06

don’t know what i don’t wanna i don’t wanna there’s like this tortured thing that happens about like representation and um conservation

1:53:15

and we don’t even get to the point talking about um like repatriation because it’s like well

1:53:20

there’s all this complexity in how we um hold on to culture and i think um

1:53:27

i mean i’ve written about this a little bit i i want to like go past it and imagine ourselves at the

1:53:32

future point where we’re we’re free you know and and what have we gotten to that point um i talk about that as a

1:53:40

as like a speculative uh indigenous retrospective like we’re looking back

1:53:45

um at what we’ve abolished uh how did we get to that point um and then for the folks who are in

1:53:51

areas where they’re doing curating or they’re working with artists um you know how do we get to that point together uh what can you offer i think

1:53:59

offering space is like a really good start um we need space you know we need land

1:54:05

we need places to gather um we need people who are willing to to work with us in ways that don’t put

1:54:10

us into boxes i think this is part of what i’ve struggled with a lot in working with arts organizations is

1:54:16

that you know i can speak as an activist or i can speak as an artist or i can

1:54:22

speak as an academic and um those things are are harder for

1:54:27

people to deal with in when they’re all one thing um and what i really want to do is to work as a land offender and

1:54:35

to be in better relation with people and it’s the relations with people that is the most important and that’s what

1:54:41

motivates my work that’s the method is is the relation building um and i

1:54:46

think that that’s the work that’s work that arts institutions can pick up

1:54:52

um what it what’s your relation to the the people whose land um you’re occupying uh and how

1:54:58

how can you sort of orient yourself towards strengthening that relationship um

1:55:05

and that that might mean shifting parts of the the structure in the way that you’re organizing and it might mean

1:55:11

looking at the economic structures and funding um and it might mean looking beyond

1:55:16

representation maybe maybe there’s spaces you can offer that don’t even uh aren’t

1:55:21

facing towards um a kind of settler public uh and you know that that that can be

1:55:28

powerful too um you know i think that a lot of that when i think about my own artistic practice it’s uh

1:55:35

it’s basically impossible for me to do art if i think about doing it for white people and if i think about it

1:55:41

in a different way then i think about like how this brings us into different kinds of conversations and different relations

1:55:47

and my relationships with other people i think that that’s that’s where i um feel like art art spaces can actually

1:55:53

be like a really liberatory freeing space um but it requires that

1:55:58

reorientation okay i think we’re one minute from two

1:56:06

pm so i think we might i’m looking at your face i mean i think we should wrap up

1:56:15

yeah and we want to thank we want to thank skyler and nelson and uh and um ann and just karen so much

1:56:23

this has been a great great talk for me just in terms of thinking through some of these

1:56:30

questions with you um uh send a link knit for the follow-up thank you so much

1:56:37

sally yeah i just wanted to say thank you everybody um for this and i just wanted to say one thing i feel like uh

1:56:43

land back is so many things as you mentioned then and then i feel like it’s it’s often so unsettling for people to even

1:56:49

think about what it would mean concretely um so thank you for that um that’s it

1:56:54

yep okay um thank you natasha thank you um

1:57:00

to all of the panelists and to everyone who spoke today and for everyone who was on the call today

1:57:06

um or the conversation rather um we’re going to be hosting the next iteration on march

1:57:13

27th again it will begin at noon so please log on to the art gallery of guelph

1:57:19

website or follow decolonize this place on their social media on their website or on

1:57:24

their instagram to just be in the loop of

1:57:30

when the next conversation will take place again thank you thank you thank you take care everybody

1:57:37

have a good afternoon thanks everyone

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