Land, Life, Liberation: A Conversation with Decolonize This Place and Friends, Part 2

2021

Land, Life, Liberation (part 2)

This is the second in a series of five conversations with Decolonize This Place and their friends, comrades, and collaborators, presented in conjunction with their initiative When We Breathe We Breathe Together hosted by the Art Gallery of Guelph from January 21 – April 25, 2021.

Taking its lead from the collective’s newly-released Decolonial Operations Manual, the series serves as the first step in building out When We Breathe We Breathe Together as a platform for organizing and action – not only taking stock of the multiple crises currently affecting the world of museums, but also thinking together about how movement initiatives can activate cultural institutions as sites of struggle and transformation. For more information: https://artgalleryofguelph.ca/exhibit…Land, Life, Liberation (part 2)

This is the second in a series of five conversations with Decolonize This Place and their friends, comrades, an …

Key moments

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Art Gallery of Guelph’s Land Acknowledgement
Art Gallery of Guelph’s Land Acknowledgement
0:21

Art Gallery of Guelph’s Land Acknowledgement

0:21

Housekeeping Notes
Housekeeping Notes
1:58

Housekeeping Notes

1:58

Nelson Maldonado Torres
Nelson Maldonado Torres
4:53

Nelson Maldonado Torres

4:53

The Comrades in the Black House Collective in South Africa
The Comrades in the Black House Collective in South Africa
27:25

The Comrades in the Black House Collective in South Africa

27:25

The Triangulation of Struggles
The Triangulation of Struggles
28:06

The Triangulation of Struggles

28:06

The Third World Liberation Front
The Third World Liberation Front
29:33

The Third World Liberation Front

29:33

The Struggle of Decolonizing the University
The Struggle of Decolonizing the University
30:25

The Struggle of Decolonizing the University

30:25

Strategy of Containment
Strategy of Containment
45:36

Strategy of Containment

45:36

Autogenerated Transcript from YouTube (if available)

Use CTRL+F to find key words if it is a longer transcript​.

0:04

okay so good afternoon everyone thank you for joining us today

0:09

for the second event in the series land life and liberation part two my name is sally frater and i

0:15

am the curator of contemporary art at the art gallery of guelph i’m going to begin our time together today with the art gallery of guelph’s

0:22

land acknowledgement today wealth is home to many first nations metis and

0:28

inui people from across turtle island as we gather together we would like to acknowledge that the

0:33

art gallery of guelph resides on the ancestral lands of the outer wandering people and

0:38

more recently these treaty lands and territory of the mississaugas of the credit

0:44

we recognize the significance of the dish with one spoon covenant to this land and offer our and offer respect to our

0:52

anishinabe haudenosaunee and metis neighbors as we strive to strengthen our relationships

0:58

with them we express our gratitude for sharing these lands for a mutual benefit

1:03

although we are convening virtually and might be individually located in different places it is useful for all of

1:09

us to remember that wherever we are whenever we are in what we currently

1:16

refer to as the americas we are on indigenous land and we should move forward in a spirit

1:21

of mindfulness and reciprocity um i’ll just do a quick note if this is

1:26

going to come up in the conversations today um um we are going to be

1:32

touching on issues of serenity and the art gallery of guelph this is something that we are thinking of

1:38

and we are looking towards or we are looking to um to have a serenity statement that we’re

1:44

going to start issuing in the future um so i’m really looking forward to today’s conversation because i think it

1:49

will give us a lot of um useful information that will help us to and that will help to inform us in those

1:56

areas so before we begin there are some brief housekeeping notes since we are in zoom

2:02

in zoom webinar everyone’s microphones are turned off and you are welcome to submit questions

2:07

throughout the conversation using the chat function and when they when the conversation

2:12

sort of comes to a close then we’ll address um them at that time um and i would like

2:20

to thank jenna bronlow and um shauna mccabe for their technical

2:27

support for this series um land life and liberation is a series of

2:33

the five conversations that will unfold as an accompaniment to the decolonize this place exhibition when we breathe we breathe

2:40

together which is currently on exhibit at the art gallery of guelph until april 25th

2:46

the installation and conversations center the d colonial operations manual which can be downloaded on the website

2:53

of decolonize’s place and the art gallery of guelph as a starting point for reflection and action

2:59

the d colonial operations manual embodies the principle of movement generated media

3:05

and is a document offered as a tool of study reflection and action the manual is grounded in five years of

3:12

collective thinking art making and organizing undertaken by de colonize this place

3:17

with dozens of groups in new york city and beyond with numerous references to movement work

3:23

preceding the establishment of decolonized place in 2016.

3:29

the scale material quantity and distribution form of the manual underscores the importance of freely

3:36

shared printed matter in the work of movement building the conversations are about individuals thinking together

3:43

about decolonization abolition and anti-imperialism in in our movements

3:50

so today along with decolonize this place and the mtl collective we have ann spice

3:56

just kieran dylan nelson maldonado torres and skyler williams

4:05

and spice clinkett is a scholar and activist and is involved in the wet suetan

4:13

anti-pipelines anti-pipeline struggle which brought rail travel in canada to a standstill

4:19

and introduced the fight against coastal gas link to the broader republic

4:25

just kieran dylan is an anti-colonial scholar and organizer she is the author of

4:33

prairie rising indigenous youth decolonization and politics of intervention

4:38

which was published in 2017 and an editor of standing with standing rock

4:44

voices from the hashtag no dapl movement from 2019 with

4:52

nick estes nelson maldonado torres is a scholar activist and author

4:58

of against war views from the underside of modernity which was published by duke university

5:05

press into in 2008 and

5:18

which was published in chiapas mexico editorial

5:26

in 2011. skyler williams is a member of a six nations land

5:33

reclamation camp and an iron worker he is a spokesperson for the group’s ongoing deoccupation of the mackenzie meadows

5:41

development dubbed 1492 land back lane this land

5:46

reclamation has stretched on for months and has included blockades across area

5:51

roads court orders to remove people staying there and dozens of arrests the six nations says the property is

5:58

unseated indigenous land

6:04

so with that i’m going to turn it over to amin and natasha

6:13

thank you um thank you sally for uh for that and thank you everybody at golf for all the work that

6:19

they put in for this exhibition and also for these conversations um i just want to start by

6:24

saying that i’m actually really excited to have this conversation you know um with specifically just kieran nelson and skyler

6:31

this is the first time i meet skyler so i’m really excited to kind of build this new relation um and then with you all we’ve been

6:36

scheming together for such a long time so it’s kind of really nice to kind of do a check in you know

6:42

considering so much that it happened to kind of start organizing together and so just an emphasis i think uh some of the

6:48

things that we’re trying to for ourselves like as dtp think about is first you know what does land back as a

6:55

movement mean for both art institutions for movements uh but also uh you know universities

7:01

and like what is our relationship to it and you know how can we be in solidarity with it and and and for it to not just be this

7:07

land acknowledgment right we’ve all kind of uh you know met around the time when land even especially in the united

7:13

states when even doing a land acknowledgment was a huge push to make right um so now i think that the

7:18

question around land back and institutions that’s a really important one that our movements are struggling with

7:24

um specifically you know when it comes to like trying to build solidarity across different lines like the colonial

7:29

abolitionists and anti-imperial lines because um quite often we’re all working in our own issue

7:35

silos right um so and then we’re trying to figure out what does that solidarity mean between

7:40

the abolitionist struggle you know which you know we’ve been part of through fcp whitney and then the george floyd moment

7:46

and then you know decolonization and specifically also anti-imperialism like thinking about it from outside the

7:52

western uh context and thinking about what does um solidarity means across borders um so

7:58

kind of the and and how is all of it rooted in action versus just thought and the combination of those

8:03

um so what are some of the actionable points that a movement can both within the institutions and

8:08

outside of that and so we’re hoping that you know not that we’ll have an answer about this in this conversation but at

8:14

least it’s a beginning or it’s a starting of like furthering and deepening our thinking around action

8:19

around these um so i just wanted to say that yeah and so from starting from the

8:25

ground up and from people doing the work and from the land that we’re kind of speed you know speaking on we we just want to give the

8:32

floor to skyler and then anne and then just kieran and then nelson and you know three to five minutes orient us

8:38

about your thoughts and thinking what do we need to have in the room given what natasha said and what sally

8:44

said and then we’ll just you know facilitate a deeper conversation back and forth on

8:51

this so skyler take it away uh yeah thank you very much i just you know

8:57

welcome to 1492 landback lane and uh so right now i’m in one of the buildings that we were able to

9:03

construct here on site and uh that we’ve maintained now for i think we’re a few

9:09

days shy of eight months of our what what has been except for the

9:14

days when of course the police show up the peaceful occupations of our lands um

9:20

i think that bit of that and that solidarity and that uh that that kind of kinship that is made

9:26

between the struggles around the abolition movement and the defunded police and all that kind of stuff really

9:33

uh trust me the indigenous folks that certainly hear from six nations

9:39

understand what that means to be over incarcerated to you know beyond belief you know

9:44

you can talk about um the prisons and having 25 percent of the population of

9:50

prisons be indigenous folks who make up three percent of the you know overall population

9:55

of canada you know you go to women’s prisons and you’re talking about 30 30 you know 30 to 33 a third of every

10:03

of every woman that’s in these prisons is indigenous you know and so i mean i think we can there’s

10:09

lots of parallels that can be made when we talk about the massive divides

10:14

that happen in courts and uh we tried our our very best uh this

10:20

past fall to argue against the injunction here at landback lane

10:26

uh only to have uh me represent myself in the court and then be barred from my

10:32

participation in that proceeding uh the court then made a decision that the the land claim that we

10:39

had made over the lands here um decided that a permanent injunction

10:45

would be in place deciding forever that uh without hearing

10:51

a bit of argument from the other side as to whether or not these lands were

10:56

ours and so uh our folks over the last

11:02

you know eight months here at the kind of the land back crew has has put together all of the history of

11:07

the land here as well as the last 30 years of uh this land claims

11:13

process that has been happening and so when we went to court we tried to uh you know enlighten some folks on what

11:21

that history was and where you know our claim to this land came from we did uh um

11:29

make a very concerted effort to make sure that we were doing this in the very best way that we

11:34

knew how um we had a ton of help and you know why

11:40

i am the the soul uh name party in the injunction what i mean

11:46

i’m i’m quite lucky in my friends that you know i’ve had some just amazingly smart people around me to be able to

11:52

to put together the case that we did as well as just a ton of community that that that

11:59

came out to make sure that we were able to maintain our place on the land here because i mean it doesn’t matter what

12:04

happens in the courts if you know all the land here is covered in concrete and asphalt like there’s not a

12:10

whole lot of um there’s not a whole lot of room for us i think for us it’s been

12:16

like i said earlier it’s a piece it’s been a peaceful occupation you know like this is our this these are

12:21

our lands and we’re going to utilize these lands how we see fit and so for us that means you know uh

12:29

several tiny homes and a couple of you know 16 by 24 bigger buildings that you know folks have been able to utilize

12:36

and so like this um idea that you know we’re you know these

12:43

violent and all you know all the rest and so and the opp has done uh tried to do a job in

12:52

in making sure that that conversation about our our stance here is is one of violence

12:58

and i think um we keep saying over and over and over again like you know there’s never been a weapon here of any kind on site you

13:05

know like we we make sure that we do everything that we possibly can to make sure that you know people come

13:11

here with a good mind and come and uh it is a dry camp you know there’s never uh drinking or drugs allowed on site

13:19

there’s not like and so we just we we do everything that we can to make sure that the

13:24

folks here are taken care of and you know people got food and you know warm place to sleep

13:30

and and so yeah and i before i forget i just want to you know shout

13:36

out to guelph because i mean like guelph has been uh a huge bit of support

13:41

and i know i i’ve got some people that are very close to me from guelph and i you know like they’re

13:47

uh lots and lots of good folks that are that have been doing lots to help us out on over here at landback lane

13:54

so i hope that was short enough to get the conversation going about that anyways

14:00

thank you skylar anne

14:07

thanks i mean i’m i’m so excited to join everybody for this conversation and to see

14:12

all of your faces um i am like in the depths of dissertation

14:19

writing and so i’ve i’ve come back from um the front lines i was spent about three

14:25

years out on what sewed in territory and uh now um in toronto and i’m trying

14:32

to sift through my own memory and experience of uh

14:37

that particular struggle um so i really feel like i’m in it and i’m in this work of translation and

14:43

trying to figure out how i write something about what i’ve gone through and

14:48

about that struggle and that the people who i’m in in relation with out there

14:54

that is useful um that spurs action that isn’t just speaking to the academy um

15:03

and uh and then i just gotta get it done so i’m sort of like been revisiting moments as

15:09

i try to write stuff up and i’ve been thinking a lot especially in the last month or so about the

15:17

eviction of cgl from what’s owed in territory which is something that happened

15:23

in january of 2020 um and then the the subsequent set of raids

15:29

uh on what’s owed in territory the siege of whitson and territory which um you know i was involved in i

15:34

was arrested during that that time and which spurred on this these you know massive acts

15:40

of solidarity across the continent really um uh sort of most notably from our mohawk

15:46

relatives uh who threw down in a huge way to stop rail traffic and highway traffic

15:52

um on their territories and so um i’m thinking about a couple of moments that i want to highlight um

16:00

from from that time um i’m thinking about the time between the

16:06

eviction and the raids uh which was a return on that territory

16:12

went so it in territory to um a space where there was an industry and

16:17

police constantly coming in and out of the territory other than by helicopter

16:22

um uh i’m thinking about the the changes we noticed in the land

16:30

uh that the animals that that came back during the time where the roads were shut down and the blockade was in

16:36

operation um and how how quickly we noticed

16:41

that that shift um how uh you know we saw our animal relations

16:48

respond to our attempts to protect the terror trying to dwell in that um partially

16:54

because the the raids themselves were like very traumatic um so i’m thinking

17:00

about that that moment um the the about a month out there where we had the the roads

17:06

blocked off and uh the police and industry weren’t weren’t able to come into the territory

17:12

um and sort of how that how that uh helped us deepen the relations with the

17:17

animals and other people that we were um you know sharing that space with at the time

17:23

so that’s something i just want to like hold up uh and the second moment is is actually

17:28

like right after i got out of jail and started to hear about all of the solidarity actions that

17:34

were happening across across the continent and how powerful it was to know that people

17:40

were putting themselves on the line in support of what was happening on what’s owed in territory

17:46

um and the uh what i saw as a kind of repetition of that um

17:52

in all of the the actions that happened after the murder of george floyd uh especially the the forms of

17:59

solidarity that we saw emerging in minneapolis um between indigenous and and black people in minneapolis

18:06

and um how how powerful those uh those statements of solidarity are um

18:12

when it means putting yourself on the line when it means standing up and making sure that it’s it’s known that we’re not gonna um

18:20

sit by and watch our our relatives and friends uh get arrested and be

18:27

be hurt and um be attacked by by the police and and by the state and

18:33

uh that those forms of solidarity those those forms of consequence really

18:38

for the actions of the state and industry um are so important um it was important to

18:45

show that that’s that’s not only possible but it’s it’s to be expected that if you

18:50

um attack one of our nations that other people will respond

18:55

and i think this is especially important as skyler mentioned in the aftermath of a lot of this

19:03

as as people are winding their way through the court system facing a whole bunch of bogus trumped up

19:09

charges that we don’t allow them to be made examples of

19:15

um and that that also spurs on a response that that deserves a response

19:21

and that will continue to build the relationships between these front line sites these sites of

19:27

struggle um and continue to show up for each other and so i think that’s uh you know that’s something something

19:34

i’ve been thinking about in both cases that we you know we um take these actions

19:39

sometimes they feel they feel small or they feel like they can’t really

19:45

address the enormity of all of the attacks we’re experiencing but they have all of these

19:52

all of these repercussions um and all of these responses from not only the animals on the territories

19:58

but also um other nations and other people who are with us and struggle and so i think that uh for me both of those

20:05

moments really uh were really important and important to hold on to um that you know these these responses

20:12

can be expected and uh we can also take on that responsibility of showing up for each other and really making sure that

20:20

they don’t get away with that so i’ll pass back to you i mean

20:28

thank you thank you uh just kieran um hello everyone it’s nice to see

20:35

everybody just echoes everyone’s enthusiasm for being here and able to be being able to be part of this

20:41

conversation um i want to start by thanking sally and everyone at the university of guelph who helped to put

20:47

this together and then to amina natasha and everyone at decolonize this place for your ongoing work

20:53

and for the invitation to be here in conversation with everyone um and to just say you know i’m i’m

21:00

really excited to be uh able to listen to and learn from and

21:05

um it’s nice to meet you skyler and nelson too so yeah so just thanks for the

21:10

opportunity um so i’m speaking to you today from um philadelphia

21:16

in a community bookstore called making worlds that i have in the last year been helping to

21:22

maintain and keep sort of um running and going in the face of the pandemic and

21:30

being here in this bookstore has really made me think a great deal about pedagogy and praxis and political

21:36

education and so much of the incredible work that is happening in communities in philadelphia

21:44

but also you know back home um on um that part of turtle island by

21:51

um indigenous land offenders and water defenders and people that are sort of um including

21:56

myself at various times actually doing the hard work of lifting up the political and historical and social

22:04

and economic context of this moment and um i’m thinking hard these days about what it means

22:09

to actually work in solidarity with people in a world that feels incredibly fractured in a set of

22:16

movements that can also have incredible i think

22:22

can also do and replicate incredible harm because we too are also part of the

22:27

worlds that we’re attempting to transform so thinking about how we re-center

22:34

not just in a rhetorical way but what it means to build relationships with one another and to be able to sustain those

22:40

relationships through a kind of political struggle what places like a community bookstore

22:45

have to offer in those kinds of contexts and i don’t mean just like a bookstore where people come in to read but

22:52

a social and political space and a community space where people come in and learn from one another

22:57

um and are able to actually develop the kinds of relationships that allow

23:02

for movement building to sustain itself over years and through various forms of adaptation that are

23:09

required in the face of tremendous violence that is ongoing um i’ve also been thinking a lot about

23:15

and this is sort of a pandemic induced set of reflections um given the isolation the social and

23:22

geographical isolation from some of my work that i’ve been doing in cambodia for the last decade now

23:28

unable to actually move across the world to be able to think and develop and sustain relationships

23:35

without doing it over a kind of zoom interface and thinking about the um importance of

23:41

internationalism um a lot of i i find myself thinking that more and more every day

23:48

about what that actually looks like and so natasha i was i was excited to hear you um also you know echoing a similar kind

23:56

of reflection you know my parents grew up in punjab there’s still land that my father has there

24:01

and there’s immense farmer farmers protests right in in on that land right now that are

24:07

linked to many many different things that i care about here um in my home in philadelphia and then

24:13

um also you know tied to so many of the struggles that um i’ve been able to be part of and

24:20

and support struggles for native liberation struggles for indigenous sovereignty struggles for abolition struggles to

24:27

support the black communities in philadelphia where i live that are completely under fire by the police that have inherited

24:34

an entire carceral history you know it’s just it’s a whole confluence of things that seem to be

24:40

coming together in this moment and i’m not just i’m not sure if it’s the fact that um you know we’ve been unable to be able

24:47

to gather in the ways that we were able to gather before and so there’s a whole kind of accumulation

24:53

of these questions and a sense of urgency that doesn’t disappear but actually gets greater

24:58

um every day so so yeah those are some of the things that i i sort of have been thinking hard about

25:06

how to actually spend my time you know i’m formally located in the academy but and i’ve always leveraged

25:13

resources whenever i can um and as this sort of a primary

25:18

um relationship with the academy is is my primary relationship is one of extraction it’s always about what i can

25:24

draw from it to leverage out into the world but really thinking hard about what the role my role in the university is relative

25:30

especially around teaching relative to um the kind of political education work that i feel like is essential

25:36

um in order for us to be able to build movements that reflect a kind of reciprocity a kind of

25:44

respect and an integrity that will last in the face of the tremendous of people

25:49

that we’re facing across the world and for me it’s it’s it seems like absolutely crucial

25:55

that we spend energy thinking about those things um and and time in a good way figuring

26:01

out how to make those things come to life um so yeah that’s where i’ll stop

26:09

thank you thank you so much nelson

26:14

yes well it is really a pleasure to be here uh with you thanks uh to decolonize this place and to

26:21

the university of wealth and the library everyone involved for organizing this is a real privilege for me to be here

26:28

with all of you thank you for the invitation and i am very pleased to meet uh

26:33

new uh comrades uh colleagues partners in the struggle and to see again uh

26:39

natasha amin amy mars crystal really pleasure to see you all and reconnect again i also uh

26:47

um want to to shout out to which ella who i believe is in the list of

26:54

participants i mean of of attendees uh because her methodology of the oppressed

27:01

uh her texts has been very fundamental for me for the last 20 years

27:06

and not only that but it was actually in my mind as i read carefully that the colonial

27:11

operations manual there is a conversation there between that text of almost 20 years ago now 20

27:16

years ago and they cannot operation manuals and i look forward to keep engaging both hopefully for the next 20 years and and

27:23

more i also want to do a shout out to the comrades in the black house collective in south

27:29

africa i see also that they are online i’m going to mention a little bit of the work too

27:35

um and i as i read the the emmanuel an actor i would say let me

27:42

start first to congratulate you for for the manual and exhibition i wish that i was able to to see the entire

27:48

exhibition but i am so thrilled having this uh manual which is clearly a

27:53

you know labor of commitment and love and so very well done and and very uh carefully thought out and um

28:03

point number four of the the colonial operations manual refers to the triangulation of struggles which in the

28:10

case of the colonized place uh they are mainly indigenous struggle the indigenous

28:16

struggle black liberation struggle and the free palestine struggle and as i thought about about

28:23

the the point the of triangulation and i reflected back on my own work in the

28:28

last uh decade or so um i kind of identified also triangulation

28:33

of of movements with which i have had the uh fortune of being connected each one

28:40

each of which has its own triangulations of course and it’s very plural and rich and one is the you know puerto

28:47

rican decolonization movement and also the afro-caribbean movement for emancipation and decolonization

28:55

but me as a puerto rican also particularly grounded on the puerto rico and recognizing the colonial

29:01

relationship between the u.s and the island of puerto rico and particularly i’ve

29:06

done this within the last few years in conversation with organizations like the colectiva

29:11

feminista in construction which has its own triangulation with black feminism and the colonial thought and the

29:17

colonial feminism and that’s a the colonial formation among others that have been emerging in the island

29:22

uh very strongly also in the spirit doing is doing their own internationalism against border uh which

29:29

is the third point of the the colonial operations manual uh the second one has been the third world liberation front

29:35

and this is coming from um me being a faculty member at uc berkeley in ethnic

29:41

studies and this was a department that emerged out of the third world liberation

29:46

front struggle strike at san francisco state university and uc berkeley in 1969 1960 and 1969 and that was

29:55

the emergence of a coalition of student movements uh black student union um

30:02

asian american pacific islander as the movement chicano latinx latin americans to the

30:08

movement and also the native american and indigenous movement uh which remains as it can also

30:14

have a prison for the kind of collaboration that uh uh one also finds reflected in the in the

30:21

words of the of the man and of course linked to that there is the struggle of decolonizing the university

30:28

and i identify uh uh quite a bit with the words that uh just

30:34

kiran dylan just share with us about this situation being at the university and how to

30:39

extract use what elements and how to do it and how to educate new generations uh not to be uh

30:46

not to use movements not to extract movements for their own uh scholarship based knowledge

30:53

but to leverage the resources in the university mobilize them for the sake of decolonization and transformation that

30:59

remains a a huge challenge and so all of these i see connected with the third world

31:05

liberation front but also can be connected so main one is the uh movement for the

31:12

liberation of asani or south africa and i’ve been fortunate to learn from the uh and collaborate with the

31:17

black house collective on the ground in south africa and with academics now also engage in the effort too in the

31:25

onwards uh decolonize the university this is linked to the 19 2015 and 2016 movements

31:32

uh rosemost fall and christmas fall which fall which fought and still continues to fight for the free

31:38

the colonized university which also involves the fight for having the land back and south africa i

31:43

want to keep it as very key in this dialogue because it is a you say

31:48

it is a space where blackness and indigenity are not like in other places that they seem to be separate and one have to

31:55

connect them they are they are very much integral because black people are indigenous indigenous

32:01

are black people land is to indigenous people but also have been colonized and rendered as

32:06

black so the struggle against colonization against an anti-black racism and against

32:12

anti-indigenity are closely linked along with attention to apartheid because of the history of the struggle

32:18

which connects with the free palestine struggle so i find myself very you know fortunate

32:23

to learn so much from from leaders activists in these areas and this is

32:29

where i am positioned as i come to this conversation

32:35

um thank you thank you all so that’s what we’re kind of bringing into the room one of the conversations i had with

32:42

skylar just in the lead up to this was hearing a little bit more about like

32:49

space and territory and the need for territory and the enclosure and that made me think about

32:55

the experience in palestine at least the land gets taken people get squeezed

33:02

into territory and then there’s nowhere your generations pass and there’s nowhere to go so perhaps

33:10

skyler back to you give us a little bit more about like

33:15

like aside from the principal land back and the right and the treaties and the

33:20

whatever like what it what are the conditions on the ground

33:25

that has led or sparked the the desire to take action and and even the conversations

33:32

about among six nations like what has this been like

33:37

and and what are the reasons for it yeah no absolutely that’s a great

33:43

question i mean um so and that’s something we talked

33:48

about a bit is over the last 100 150 years it doesn’t matter what what town you

33:55

live in what city you you you’re in they’ve all had the opportunity to grow

34:01

as as communities as cities every one of them have grown exponentially over the last

34:07

you know 150 years the only communities in this country that have gotten smaller

34:12

are reserves reserves have a booming population across the country yet here we are the only ones that have

34:19

a restricted space in which we are allowed to grow and so that forces us to grow

34:26

in ways that are not uh traditionally ways that indigenous people live in and you know calling that

34:34

you know covering everything in concrete asphalt in the name of progress that’s not well uh how we live as as indigenous people

34:42

certainly not at six nations and and this is something that is true from just about every reserve that you go to

34:48

is that like if you look in southern ontario there’s one spot of green you look down

34:54

from the google earth there you can see this one spot of green of like dark green

34:59

forest that is you know the virgin forests of six nations that have never been touched before by a plow or a saw

35:06

and this is it is the only spot in all of southern ontario that looks this way

35:11

and it is a very distinct square that you can see when you look look from google earth at six nations

35:18

and so when you uh restrict any of that movement to of growth

35:23

uh it means that we are going to be forced to grow in the very same way that

35:29

our western brothers and sisters have chosen to and so that plowing everything

35:35

under and you know making sure that the every bit of

35:41

every bit of space is utilized to capitalize on um you know to make money from or

35:49

whatever like that like that forcing of the environment

35:56

to benefit us in some kind of way because you know we’re not letting space for the deer and the foxes and the

36:02

animals that that that grow and live around here like this is in for us this community you know we’re a

36:09

you know a hunting community you know we [Music] you know and we’re always talking

36:16

yesterday about going hunting for the first time and and what that meant to go on my first deer when i was you know a young

36:22

teenager you know and what that what that process look like and so when we get hemmed in as a community

36:30

by these massive developments here in six nations like remember everybody needs to understand like this is southern ontario

36:36

you know there’s a quarter of the entire country lives in this area and so when we’re talking about the most lucrative

36:42

bit of real estate that you can find anywhere up and down that from coast to coast uh

36:48

it takes quite a bit and there’s a lot of pressure from government there’s a lot of pressure from police

36:55

to make sure that indigenous people are quiet when it comes to these issues and so to occupy a space that is

37:03

was supposed to be home to 1400 homes that is going to further encroach on our

37:09

lands restricting us from being able to grow anywhere like we can talk about the additions to

37:14

reserve process the atr process that the federal government has put together that has never worked for anybody

37:20

for any any indigenous community across the country and so that that that process is one

37:27

that is you know a nightmare for uh for anybody to try and and grow those

37:33

lands because the the municipality that we’re trying to grow into needs to be able to

37:40

have uh has veto power over whether or not we grow

37:45

and there’s no elected official that’s going to be able to run for office next year if uh you know they’re choosing to have

37:52

their tax base tax base shrink and i went

37:57

and you know the like ann had kind of talked about about that solidarity that we

38:02

that we share amongst each other and um actually was when i was arrested here

38:08

on august 5th um i was also arrested for the solidarity

38:14

blockade that we had done here and blocked one the major highways and railways that kind of came through our

38:19

territory here at six nations and uh was arrested for that as well and

38:24

i think that’s one thing that people need to understand that like all of our communities now are linked in

38:30

ways that we’ve never been before certainly not since before contact

38:35

before all of these big divisions that you know because that’s what the governments and the police the rcmp

38:40

before the opp here and six nations have done over these last 150 years while

38:46

everybody else was growing and growing and growing their borders

38:53

they started to divide our communities and make sure that those reserves were places of isolation and so now in

39:00

2020 2021 now we see those those relationships those

39:06

centuries and centuries year old ties uh that bound us those treaty

39:12

relationships that we have are aren’t something that is new for us this wasn’t

39:17

uh an after contact that we started making treaties we had you know those same treaty relationships

39:23

that are still honored by communities across the country by nations across this country and so

39:29

when anne talks about that solidarity between our nations like that’s something that we hold very

39:34

very close to our hearts and so i think when you know you mess with one of us here

39:41

you’re gonna get the horns from all of us so i mean it’s uh it’s something that we really we really take to heart

39:49

mars you said you had a question or no

39:57

no no not right now okay well just just to kind of follow up on that skyler i’d

40:02

um you know one of the things that i think uh when we were talking and then i and

40:08

then i think it’s a conversation for everyone so it’s not i’m i’m there’s things that i heard from

40:13

skyler that i just want to bring into the room as well and that for everyone to kind of think through

40:18

but like what struck me about what you were describing is that logic being applied to the same

40:26

place i came from in the same ways and in fact in palestine what they do the israeli

40:32

government it encloses you and simultaneously you have nowhere to build so you start

40:38

building illegally but the building illegally then is subject to a fine

40:44

and you also have to pay for the own destruction of the structures that you built illegally

40:50

or else you go to jail or in addition you go to jail and i was just thinking about how like

40:59

it’s it’s not so much for me for my experience it’s not just so much that it’s a

41:04

it’s it’s kind of like to separate you from progress and to make an example of you but it’s

41:11

it’s a slow burn of the continued eradication and genocide

41:16

and taking of the land but it’s the slow burn that doesn’t allow for for people to say that’s a genocide or

41:24

it’s a genocide going on again and so i was wondering just like one last thought

41:30

in your internal conversations to do the encampment to do the deoccupation was it

41:37

was it easy to have that conversation and say it’s time to take direct action and it’s time to kind of

41:43

face internally to face the kind of brunt of the system trying to kind of

41:50

what was that conversation like and i think the same goes for anne you know thinking about that

41:57

um yeah it uh i think you know what those conversations start

42:03

at home for me and those conversations start with my kids

42:09

and so that that conversation with my because i have four daughters that you know i have seen dad go off to

42:15

these you know their entire lives and so there’s always that conversation with

42:20

them that you know like that you know cops uh

42:26

cops have been known to you know arrest us to shoot us to hurt us in lots and lots and lots of

42:32

ways and so you know my youngest daughter cries and and gives me a hug and tells me

42:39

you know i love you and you know and you know let’s see my older daughters that have you know done

42:46

uh you know organized school walkouts when they again when they uh raided in uh

42:52

in this community my my daughter came home from school and and and we were on the highway

43:00

and she got she got brought down and she come and hung out with me and she was like well what can i do

43:06

like what can i do dad like how do i how do i do something to make make this known in

43:12

my school and so i said well what you know we started talking about what that would look like to do a walkout

43:19

and organize a big school in our high school because here in caledonia the staging area

43:26

for the opp provincial police here is directly across the road from the high school and so

43:33

for yeah for our kids to you know have to walk out every day from school to see you know 100 opp cars filling the

43:40

parking lot of a of a school that you know that just arrested their mom that

43:46

that you know had shot at their dad just weeks before you know like these are the like these are the very real

43:51

struggles that you know i think most of us try to think about and

43:57

anticipate before these things happen but i mean when [Music]

44:02

all of that the the weight of the criminalization of of all of it is it’s really something

44:08

that’s hard to kind of fathom before and so when

44:13

you know in this particular one where we seen highways and railways dug up with heavy machinery and roads

44:20

and you know like this the the weight of that that criminalization of us is something

44:27

that’s really hard to try and anticipate for and so it is uh

44:33

yeah it’s a bit of a a hard conversation to have

44:38

uh kind of prior to this because you know you never quite know what’s going to happen or what a win what that

44:44

what that win looks like i think that’s always a conversation for activists in general is you know to have

44:51

that hard conversation with yourself about what with the near within community within

44:57

those circles of you know how how to how what’s the end game here like is that

45:03

something that is possible and so yeah for us that those conversations certainly had to happen

45:09

and and for us i think it uh in this particular circumstance was just to say

45:14

you know what we’re we’re not we’re not going until this land is ours

45:20

thank you and do you do you have anything to kind of share along these lines

45:29

i i definitely hear what skyler is saying in terms of the the criminalization and the

45:34

and also what you’re saying i mean about the strategy of containment um and i think that that’s something

45:41

that we really need to to uh flag and look out for because that is the it’s a call it’s a common tactic

45:49

that’s used um against indigenous people is this you know usually it’s a slow a slow

45:55

containment um and in uh you know our case it’s often

46:01

starts with the movement to the reservation and then a continuous redefining of all of our

46:09

vast traditional territories um in ways that mean that we can no longer

46:14

access them and so uh what’s been happening on what’s owed in territory is that i mean there are these these territories

46:21

that are defined as crown lands even though there’s been no treaty made with the crown um

46:26

and then they they get sort of like slowly used for other purposes and so you have

46:32

this space that’s now defined as a construction site um where it used to be a hunting territory and uh

46:38

you know that that’s the sort of like slow encroachment that writes indigenous people out of our

46:44

own territories and makes daily life um and

46:49

regular daily activities criminal um and you know adds an element of

46:56

danger and i think that’s that’s something that um it’s hard it’s hard to

47:01

uh hard to really get across to people what that what that feels like to be going out hunting and have you

47:08

know police following you or to know that you could run into uh you know

47:13

police with semi-automatic weapons on a trail um about berry picking i think that

47:20

that sort of it it’s a it’s a kind of violence that’s usually not visible

47:25

because it’s out in these spaces that you’re not really seeing and um it eased away at the sense that you

47:31

can just practice this alternative to a like fully colonized existence um and i think

47:39

that’s part of what we really are trying to push against is that you know the only way we live free as

47:46

indigenous peoples and i would expand that to say that you know this is like offering an

47:51

alternative way of living to more than just indigenous peoples is if we’re able to be on our lands

47:57

and to hunt and um gather foods and gather medicines and actually

48:04

sort of disentangle ourselves from the ways that we’ve become dependent on the state um uh

48:11

because that was a that was a tactic of of genocide is to to make us dependent on the state and

48:17

to say we can’t exist without all of these structures that are in place and that’s why these conversations community conversations are difficult

48:24

is because people have been forced into poverty have been forced off of their

48:29

territories through generations of erasure and elimination

48:35

um and any attempts that we have to kind of claw back some of what we’ve lost are met with uh police and guns

48:42

and so um that’s you know that’s why it is a risk it’s a risk to put ourselves

48:48

out on the land and it’s it’s difficult to ask people to do that in community um uh

48:54

because cro like land defense is so criminalized and um you know things that shouldn’t

49:01

shouldn’t feel wrong and shouldn’t feel criminal you end up being you’re getting surveillance and there’s

49:06

helicopters and you’re like i’m just picking berries like this shouldn’t be something i’m feeling like like scared about um but that’s that’s

49:14

what they’re trying to do to us is to to make us a space where um we only can relax and avoid those forms

49:22

of criminalization when we’re like in the little boxes that they’ve put us in um and i really want to honor the work

49:28

that um uh frida houston and and other uh what’s owed in folks have done

49:33

over really decades um in community that this is uh when we see these sort of uh these

49:40

occupations and we see the blockade and we see the raids like that’s the strength and the courage to do that

49:47

is built on years and years and years of very careful community work to get everyone on the same page

49:53

um to talk to people about the importance of standing up to these companies

49:59

uh to try and provide alternatives to you know the benefits agreements and the

50:06

little scraps of money that the the companies are offering to come through come through the lands um it’s it’s

50:13

it’s hard work it’s like really hard work and it um sometimes feels like thankless work

50:18

and uh you know i think that the the people i mean frida especially but other people who’ve been

50:23

standing up on that territory really um you deserve a lot of respect and

50:30

um we need to hold them up because i mean that’s they’re tired they’re tired from years

50:36

and years of that um and it’s not always easy to get your community on board when it requires sometimes like quite a

50:44

serious sacrifice and a serious risk um to just be able to like

50:49

assert that the land belongs you know not to the state that this is a space that you should be able to have access

50:55

to and to protect um so i think there’s definitely a history a history there um

51:02

i just i’m so livid when i read things that are talking about how you know the whitson nation is

51:08

divided i mean it’s this divide and conquer tactic that’s like age old um making it look like you know people

51:15

are just at each other’s throats all the time when really it’s like people trying to strategize how to survive

51:22

um and trying to you know keep each other alive in situations

51:28

where you’re constantly under attack and you know sort of jumping on those

51:34

little bits of division i think is just so irresponsible because um you know what we’ve seen

51:40

i think over over the last you know a couple of years is a really remarkable amount of

51:46

solidarity both within that nation and within you know all of our nations as skyler was talking

51:52

about and um that’s where we should be putting our focus is that that’s possible

51:57

despite all of these attacks and attempts to divide us we’re still standing up for each other um and those

52:03

of us who have access to more privilege and who are um you know have a have a bit of a safety

52:09

net when we put ourselves in these situations i think it’s you know we have a responsibility to step

52:15

up for for others in our communities who aren’t able to do the same

52:20

one one of the things that i think and this is for also for everyone and also for nelson and just kieran because

52:27

the international element or the experiences that are happening across the world right now things that we’re

52:33

related to can inform us a lot about how to move and what are the challenges that we have

52:39

ahead and i think that’s where the manual was coming from and to give you an example these colonial tactics that i’m

52:45

familiar with like the black goat was was rendered like illegal by by israel because

52:51

this is in the 50s because they said oh it’s a very precious thing so they made it illegal but that’s what

52:57

the shepherds had the taking of the land at least in the context of palestine was the taking

53:02

away of being able to survive on your own so then it produces this dependency on the state which leads me

53:08

to this question which is it’s something that i think everyone’s thinking about how do we

53:13

decouple nations from states because what’s happening is that this is not just becoming an indigenous issue or

53:20

in the context of palestine or palestinians the new generation isn’t thinking of state as synonymous

53:25

with self-determination right so it’s forcing us to think about the

53:31

political imaginaries that we can articulate through struggle

53:36

south africa is a reoccurring one because it has the complexity there but

53:42

i think in punjab you’re dealing with a similar thing you know is it is the coming at

53:47

this from like oh well punjab is a sovereign state or palestine as a sovereign state what does

53:53

that do in terms of like our our desire to get free

54:00

in the context of new york the challenges that we see for our movements

54:05

and just to bring it because i think we would love to hear people’s thoughts on it we’re having a lot of issues the role of

54:13

the artist seems to be one of art the role of the educator is one of education within an

54:19

institution the role of like the gentrification struggle is one that has to relate to you know

54:26

displacement so then you have to force the issue of long-term displacement in the conversation you talk about the

54:33

united states and then everyone’s talking about how to get free but you’re saying well it’s also an empire so how can you explain

54:40

the ethiopian soldier who’s shooting palestinian kids in occupied palestine

54:46

the complexities of what’s being raised which is already being said is like the the confluence of

54:52

all these struggles are coming together with such intensification that we can’t like we’re having

54:58

difficulty just upholding one without saying well why aren’t we talking about all of this

55:03

and how do we move together and towards what and how do people retain

55:10

their own thing as we figure it out and what are the debts that we owe each other that we

55:15

need to meet now in terms of solidarity and on what principle

55:21

and i think that that’s that’s kind of what i want to bring to this room that is all you’ve already laid the foundation

55:27

for so ann you know nelson [Music] oh sorry you go knit go ahead mars you

55:35

could go yeah i was just gonna add to that um everything like plus one to everything i

55:41

mean just said but especially when some of the current goals of our movements or the or the futures that

55:47

we’re orienting ourselves towards are at odds with other struggles that we wish to

55:52

stand in solidarity with right so like thinking through historically how black liberation

55:57

and how like reparations and how people are still fighting for 40 acres and a mule um on stolen indigenous land like what

56:05

does that look like but we’re we’re naming that we’re finding these connections between black and indigenous struggles

56:11

through incarceration policing histories of colonialism we’re showing up for each other’s in the streets um

56:17

you know if you if you call on action especially in new york over the past um we’ve noticed like a shift over the

56:23

past probably five to ten years of folks really just being like showing up for

56:29

for anything whether it was what’s happening in the amazon whether it was george floyd or all these different

56:34

things and then we’re there and the energy is there but then we’re at odds with each

56:40

other when we think of how do we move together and how do we move towards some sort of future um there’s

56:46

issues around um you know sovereignty slavery um the settler indigenous binary that

56:52

settler colonial studies sets up fails that’s constantly we they’re you know where does that place a lot of people when you think of

56:58

histories of displacement and dispossession over time where does that leave different folks and so that’s that’s what i would love

57:06

to hear from you guys about because it’s something i’m stuck on someone something that ben said last two weeks

57:12

ago conversation is that this can only happen through um struggle and so i’m wondering what is how how and

57:20

what what does that struggle look like and how do we grow it together

57:26

i don’t know if i should add or we should let people go i feel like is it too much no should i just go okay

57:32

um well i think my mind just just to add to it i think skylar brought up like you know the idea of violence and that you

57:39

know that you know you all are involved in a peaceful deoccupation and i just wanted to add that to the mix also and how

57:45

violence is often weaponized both by the state and then that gets weaponized on

57:50

us as well and i feel like that’s what’s happening like for example just kidding i’m in delhi right now and i’ve been in punjab and so

57:56

you know like just being you know with in front in like in terms of what the farmers are doing very specifically it’s

58:01

you know it’s expanded uh form of land back right because it’s like you know we don’t want land to go to corporations but what that

58:08

does is that specifically because you know it was first initially started by sikhs and there’s like a historical

58:14

label of terrorism on on on you know basically sovereignty in punjab and what the history of the movement there has been

58:20

is that you see that tag kind of come along even with this movement which is around farmers right so so the violence that is there by you

58:27

know both by the end and then this kind of constant emphasis on our part to say this is a peaceful the occupation right

58:32

that’s where a lot of the energy then ends up going right and then i feel like that also kind of produces this this

58:39

kind of energy of harm both ways right because a lot of times what we’ve seen is that divides our communities which is what you were

58:44

talking about android like we actually that there is a divide that then starts becoming which is about either

58:50

assimilation into the system which is saying that you’re violent and then here therefore you know you’re basically trying to prove you’re

58:56

not or like you know you then considered a radical and like in in an outcast right and then you like

59:02

you know be it around media or be around movements or be around anything there’s a whole other kind of a struggle

59:07

that you’re fighting with right and so then that produces that and i feel like that you know you just couldn’t mention a little bit about

59:13

it like in terms of the accumulation of harm which then is you know it didn’t exist but also the transformation and the

59:19

reorientation that is required even within movement building um so just that as a question and then uh

59:27

nelson like you’ve written a lot about aesthetics and the role of aesthetics and i think since we’re having this kind

59:32

of art and movement building conversation if you could add a little bit about you know what aesthetics also mean

59:37

in kind of our movement well specifically within decolonization abolition and anti-imperialism i think that would be

59:44

good yeah

59:50

okay i’m going to jump in i’ll try to be briefish because i want to hear from other people as well

59:56

maybe just to address your point uh natasha about violence i think

1:00:04

in the end it doesn’t matter if we

1:00:09

we spend a lot of time trying to trying to make sure that we are perceived as peaceful

1:00:16

um and in the end that doesn’t actually matter in terms of what kinds of

1:00:23

violence we experience when they came in to raid uh with sodium

1:00:29

territories they had they had snipers pointed at us um

1:00:34

they knew that we weren’t armed uh and in the end they were like well we

1:00:40

know that there were hunting rifles around and so that’s why we needed to check you out with the scope of our

1:00:47

snipers so like in you know in the end it does it doesn’t matter they’re going to use

1:00:52

their violent tactics either way i think we’re probably a little bit less likely to get shot

1:00:58

if we’re not actually holding a rifle but i think that something’s happened in the way that this

1:01:03

um these movements have have developed and i think i think about this a lot um

1:01:08

as i also revisit materials from um my late friend and mentor uh brian

1:01:14

granboy um you know he was the heart of blockades going back

1:01:19

decades in red power movement american indian movement and they were always armed in those

1:01:26

spaces and something happened in the sort of public consciousness that put indigenous people in a position

1:01:33

where we’re not allowed to defend our territories um with those tactics otherwise we’re

1:01:39

written off as as sort of violent radicals or terrorists um something happened there um and i’m

1:01:46

interested in what that shift is and what what the sort of array of tactics are that are acceptable now

1:01:52

and they really require indigenous people to take a huge amount of abuse and violence

1:01:58

without ever pushing back and even the small ways we do push back are immediately

1:02:04

sort of cast as criminal and so it’s a really difficult line to to walk um and i think that’s one of the

1:02:10

places where you know we can use help in terms of public narrative work um you know none of these things should

1:02:16

be defined as terrorist or criminal and so pushing back against that is something that can really help us

1:02:21

um i think to to mars uh questions there i think that that

1:02:30

the question around how we form solidarity is when sometimes we’re we’re looking for different outcomes uh

1:02:37

is so crucial in this moment as part of the reason why i think at least for me in my own

1:02:42

thinking um i think i think the starting point is abolition i think that

1:02:48

uh some of the language that we’ve used indigenous movements can be uh exclusive

1:02:56

and polarizing and i think that some of it we we need to let go if it’s not serving the purposes of

1:03:03

both our liberation and the liberation of black people i think that we need to look at

1:03:11

where our struggles overlap in terms of who our common enemies are and which structures are you know

1:03:19

are we working against and need dismantling and then that’s where we put the energy and i think that’s why the language of

1:03:25

abolition is helpful for me um because it’s like what do we need to actually take apart in order to move

1:03:30

forward um i think when we talk about decolonization a lot people can even though we tell

1:03:37

them again and again and again that it’s not a metaphor like there’s still a way that that folks are holding on to

1:03:43

these structures and think that they can do the work of decolonization while the structures remain intact

1:03:48

and the structures can’t remain intact if we’re gonna get free um so if we think with the language of

1:03:55

abolition first i think we start to think like all right we don’t we’re not going to get anywhere if we still have the police like

1:04:01

let’s get rid of them you know uh abolish that and then we then we can sort of move forward so i think there’s

1:04:07

there’s two things that are happening one is it is like how can we help each other you know dismantle these things that are killing us

1:04:14

and then how can we like really work on um stretching our imaginations to think

1:04:19

about the world we want to live in uh on the other side of that like what’s the what kind of relations do we want to

1:04:25

have with each other who do we want to be welcoming onto our territories um and then how do we sort of build

1:04:31

towards that so i think sometimes the light we get stuck on the language of sovereignty um

1:04:37

uh i think that that can you know be a powerful move against a particular

1:04:42

a particular force like i want to talk in terms of sovereignty and i’m speaking directly to the canadian state

1:04:48

um to be like you don’t have you don’t have it you don’t have sovereignty like we do um you know but when i’m talking to

1:04:54

other people who you’re right aren’t aren’t you know appropriately cast as as in this sort of settler indigenous

1:05:01

binary um then yeah i don’t i don’t want to talk about like how we’re going to somehow

1:05:06

have like supreme authority in in the aftermath of all of this i

1:05:11

want to talk about how we build relations now how we like all all can work on being in

1:05:17

better relation with the land um and that i think is uh you know there’s

1:05:22

some work that we need to do within uh indigenous movements to make sure that we’re not imagining a future

1:05:28

um without our our black friends and comrades and relatives like on our territories

1:05:35

um i think that’s a that’s a huge mistake um is to sort of do this imagining and then sort of just like

1:05:41

you know who’s going to be there with us like i’ll see the people who are throwing down for us now so like let’s build them in right now into

1:05:48

sort of how we talk about other ways of governing and like relating to each other um and i think

1:05:55

that yeah that’s that’s partially in digging deep into our personal relations as well and thinking about how the

1:06:01

framework of abolition helps us take that uh the ways that we’re relating out of

1:06:07

the carceral like we really still treat each other um like we’re treated by police and

1:06:13

um you know that’s gotta stop we’ve gotta find ways of relating to each other that aren’t carceral that aren’t about you know

1:06:19

removing people and um you know policing them and uh

1:06:24

figuring out how we actually live together in this space i think is that imagination work that’s that’s

1:06:29

really important um so yeah i would rather you know let go of some some terms if they’re not serving us

1:06:36

and really focus on like who’s our common enemy where are they vulnerable um and where are we different

1:06:41

differently positioned to like really work you know work to to bring these structures down and i think

1:06:48

that the um all the actions that that were happening after the murder of george floyd really sort of

1:06:53

showed a little bit of that and i think that um you know there were indigenous people on the ground in minneapolis and

1:06:58

other spaces who really stepped up and then i think there’s a lot of a lot of others um who you know we were a little slow on the

1:07:05

uptake to sort of figure out where where we where we fit and there are a lot of statements that came pretty late

1:07:13

i think you can say you’re in solidarity and uh you know that that’s fine but you’ve got

1:07:18

to do better than that and i think for me that’s that focus on really bringing down these systems and

1:07:24

um you know having the courage to say like no let’s actually let’s actually

1:07:30

imagine a world without police here and then how would we actually organize together to make that happen

1:07:36

that’s been really important

1:07:41

yeah i just want to jump in there too and like that’s um you know and trying to frame what we’re

1:07:48

doing all the time isn’t is is con a constant conversation about

1:07:53

how to frame ourselves as not being the terrorists you know like the here in caladonia the mayor of alderman

1:08:01

county has come out you know over and over and over again to call us terrorists and to you know for defending our lands

1:08:08

and in the in the peaceful way that we have we still manage to you know try and control the narrative around

1:08:15

what that looks like but it’s a constant uh constant thought for us

1:08:20

around you know how like how am i being portrayed how like and so you know that

1:08:27

uh this idea that if you know we we smile and we’re nice but if we’re if

1:08:33

we’re angry then we’re terrorists you know if we’re if we’re yelling and screaming and jumping up and down you know like this

1:08:38

is then it changes it changes what that narrative looks like

1:08:43

and so for us to have taken lots and lots and lots of time to

1:08:50

you know make sure that uh every time that we’re we’re speaking about whatever

1:08:56

uh in this is that you know reiterating that peaceful occupation of our lands you

1:09:03

know that this isn’t an armed struggle this isn’t uh this is the the all of that and you know

1:09:11

with solidarity stuff that folks have been doing um you know and bringing boots to the

1:09:16

ground here like that like all of that is you know crucially important to

1:09:22

to any of these movements and you know i think uh a lot of the capacity stuff that you

1:09:28

know people have uh certainly now in the age of uh covet stuff like we

1:09:34

we really need to try and utilize the the people that we have in the best ways

1:09:40

that we can because if we’re not uh bringing people together

1:09:46

like there’s like if we don’t have people on the ground here like all of the political moves that

1:09:52

that folks have been making to try and bring community together within six nations and that outreach uh to the feds in their

1:10:00

province and you know select politicians within that and the advocacy work that’s going on there

1:10:06

like all of that all of that work means nothing if this if if you know how

1:10:12

to show me people aren’t on the land here you know and so to make sure that we’re doing all of the things

1:10:18

and you know have our have all the of the wheels turning all the time like it is that is that that is a big part of

1:10:26

this is making sure that you know every every facet of this is going along but framing ourselves is

1:10:34

uh in that peaceful light all the time is is sometimes not always not always easy

1:10:40

because like there are things that politicians do there are things that the cops do that are absolutely infuriating

1:10:47

and to try and keep that that mode of of of peace and of uh

1:10:53

you know the to hear the haldeman county uh uh come out is calling us terrorists

1:11:02

and uh you know have them uh prod along the opp to continue to

1:11:10

um go after my family you know in my family

1:11:16

my parents are you know under 70 in their 70s my my kids are teenagers you know and like

1:11:22

this is something that the ultimate county police services board has advocated for since the beginning of

1:11:27

this is that the the defining us is terrorists like it’s a it’s absolutely ridiculous

1:11:34

and infuriating um justgear and nelson i think this is

1:11:42

an area i would love you also your thoughts

1:11:54

nelson do you want to go first or go for it [Laughter]

1:12:02

um okay i’ll start quickly and then you can just jump in sure um you know make sure i leave ty uh

1:12:09

you know some space and time if there are additional questions folks want to raise too um yeah i just wanna you know i think

1:12:16

there’s been so much why so many wise things that have been said so far and so much with so much i think um thoughtfulness

1:12:23

and reflection um so i’ve really just been sitting here listening and thinking and absorbing all

1:12:28

of that and and taking it in and sort of um thinking about how it it sort of it resonates deeply with me

1:12:35

and i think are are also some of the um ways that i’ve been thinking about

1:12:40

what it means to um engage in a revolutionary movement

1:12:47

for you know radical social transformation across the planet um and so i was also like thinking

1:12:54

about some of the um points that were raised about the sort of differentiation

1:12:59

between the nation and the state and i mean i think those those that terminology and those frames are

1:13:05

are traps that are very easy to get caught in a whirlpool around um and so i i feel like part of what i’m

1:13:13

hearing people say too or are like thinking through the ways that we um our histories are co-constituted and

1:13:20

as collectives with certain like commitments responsibilities and political goals we

1:13:27

would be better served by spending our time sort of understanding that co-constitution

1:13:33

and then figuring out places of alignment where we want to work together to be able to create the kind

1:13:39

of world that we want to live in because the reality is that here is there and there is here

1:13:44

so you can be engaged in uh you know a movement for um you know

1:13:51

a specific kind of liberation struggle a political struggle here for example in in on turtle island

1:13:58

but you know because of the way that our world is structured through global racial capitalism

1:14:03

we’re intricately tied to what’s happening in so many other parts of the world not

1:14:09

to mention us militarization and the presence of you know the us

1:14:14

military canadian mining corporations peacekeeping troops that are part of the united nations

1:14:19

right the security council western state power all the ways in which the places that we live in here are tied

1:14:26

to the places that we care about there so like here and there feels like important to think of in terms of

1:14:33

collective people power and shared political history but also a set of political goals

1:14:39

um i think it’s challenging to think through what a set of political goals look like in the abstract but if you

1:14:46

start to think through the sort of the histories that you’re struggling against and the institutional structures and the state formations

1:14:52

and the formations of global capital that you’re also fighting against it becomes easier i think to articulate

1:14:58

an agenda for free that is shared and has like points of connection

1:15:04

um and differences too that probably and will always exist but but there is a

1:15:09

kind of shared commitment to moving forward um and and i do think the stakes are are

1:15:16

incredibly high and i also think that our movements need a great deal of work um and time in thinking about how this

1:15:23

is going to be possible yeah well building on on on precisely

1:15:30

these points um i think the case of of well first off you know of the americas

1:15:39

generally you know south america and so on and australia where uh so many indigenous

1:15:44

communities are facing uh um you know expropriation and extermination still and that’s

1:15:51

certainly you know so we’re talking not only about is both local but also very global uh kind of issue and it reflects

1:15:58

itself and extend itself in different ways for example even in the case of puerto rico

1:16:04

where after the hurricane maria and the devastation of hurricane maria uh many people died many people left the

1:16:12

island to the uh us territories

1:16:17

and then and that open space then for uh private corporations private entities

1:16:25

in the territories of the us then buying uh property and buying uh land

1:16:31

in the island and that becoming another way right the crisis becoming another way of

1:16:36

losing uh uh territory now you’re in a cond you’re this is happening while you’re living in a colonial

1:16:42

condition which means that even when you have the title to the land that doesn’t mean that that makes the

1:16:48

people in there sovereign of the land right you’re you are a kind of uh uh you have a title but

1:16:55

that doesn’t necessarily translates into political sovereignty uh that’s a problem just as it is a problem also the idea that you are just

1:17:02

still buying land and therefore you are being kind of completely connected into the regime of

1:17:09

private property property which points to the question of what are the other

1:17:15

views of land and living in land and living with each other that we need to cultivate so as to though when we fight for

1:17:22

decolonization or emancipation we’re not simply reproducing the terms

1:17:27

that we are given that we have been given and these catastrophic terms have that have led us to be disconnected

1:17:34

from each other and disconnected from the environment and disconnected from life in the environment and that

1:17:39

is a a formidable challenge i think in the island you have seen of

1:17:45

course movements that have sought to advance or cultivate sustainable forms of

1:17:51

you know of cultivation of of relating the dilemma with each other but there is

1:17:56

so much to learn from movements and and people who have been dealing with this for for

1:18:01

centuries we have but there’s also there have been kind of in some sectors there have been

1:18:07

a gap with let’s say ancestral uh forms of connecting with the land if we have in puerto rico has been mainly

1:18:13

through the presence of the african diaspora in the island right and afro-puerto ricans and afro

1:18:19

spirituality and arts and aesthetics that have kept another kind of way of relating to

1:18:26

each other and the land but also disconnected from the rest of the caribbean and other places so we need to do a lot of work of

1:18:31

maintaining that connection and reconnection and uh uh let me also take bring back

1:18:37

the the the uh the manual because you know one thing

1:18:43

that struck me about the manual when the manual begins where we begin and i think where we begin the first

1:18:49

part is recognizing precisely the condition of the the

1:18:54

kind of catastrophic fragmentation that exists coloniality create this catastrophic fragmentation

1:19:00

that makes it uh extremely difficult to generate decolonization because it means

1:19:05

that it is not only separating yourself from the from the from the colonizer is how do you then

1:19:11

build a new kind of relationship with the colonizer with each other and you form another reality

1:19:17

um and again when the main concepts that have been circulating around having given most prominence they

1:19:23

have been complicit in the fragmentation in the first place nation state and sovereignty and also

1:19:28

concepts so how do you employ those concepts critically and generate all the concepts and other ideas and i think that

1:19:35

some of those ideas are already uh um you know are echoed in the in the manual for

1:19:40

example when in the manual you write that um when we when we breathe we breathe

1:19:46

together what is that about breathing that might be so key when thinking our of our common humanity on

1:19:52

our vulnerable condition on earth and what it means to preserve our relations when we walk uh we do not run because we

1:19:59

are going very far uh that also appears in the manual that’s also walking and thinking and weaving also our

1:20:06

activities that have been central many communities in gabi ayala completely about ways of cultivating form and

1:20:12

creating new forms of of reality and really having the coloniality emerge from these new practices of being together

1:20:19

and also strike me uh just to end with this that in the in the first point when we begin uh

1:20:25

all the kind of the main actions that appear in your first point of the manual are all

1:20:32

about forms of relationality starting with offering is one it has to do with gift

1:20:37

giving too uh standing with our relations is the second one that appears in text

1:20:42

a call a call calling is also another way of connecting with others and finally taking responsibility to act

1:20:50

so right now it’s clear that that you know in order to begin any any kind of movement you have to begin to opposing

1:20:57

this catastrophe fragmentation i’m beginning to put out the center of the of the table

1:21:03

new forms of relationality now when mars is tracing this question it is coming from the practice this is

1:21:08

much more difficult much more difficult to do than is to say it but saying it is important and it

1:21:14

remains as a guide in terms of what is said but also what is visualized in aesthetics

1:21:20

and also uh uh represented in movements uh this morning i was listening to a

1:21:26

bomba class in puerto rico it’s an afro puerto rican music and i was talking with a colleague of mine

1:21:31

carter karemates about the resonances of that and the music and rhythms and the

1:21:37

spirituality of mardi gras indian community in new orleans for example right and so all of the these pieces

1:21:43

also are there we need to continue also building on on them including the relationship with our indigenous

1:21:49

sisters and brothers across the globe which is one of the reasons among many why this conversation is so

1:21:54

important um great thank you this is really um

1:22:00

we’re going to open it up for conversation for questions so we’re going to pass it on to sally but i just

1:22:06

want to put one thing in around violence and non-violence and peaceful protests and

1:22:11

the limitations that are sometimes imposed by the state through laws and

1:22:18

and deterrence both specific deterrents so that you don’t do it and general deterrence so

1:22:24

that they make examples out of you and you saw in the george floyd moment that was the first thing they did when

1:22:30

people burned cop cars right and no one to my knowledge

1:22:36

the level of support for that you know wasn’t that wide spread

1:22:43

which is something that we should take account for at least in new york city when when the cop cars got burnt but

1:22:50

that changed the trajectory of what we saw as a potential uprising and the limitations of that potential

1:22:56

uprising and the changing of the tactics that were deployed and the policing of each other on the

1:23:03

streets which was a very odd thing but when i look back to palestine it happens

1:23:11

as well because you have young kids that want to throw rocks at israeli army patrols that are passing

1:23:19

by but the but the person the palestinian who owns the store says don’t do it in front of my shop

1:23:27

right don’t do it in my neighborhood don’t do it in my city because of the

1:23:34

consequences of that right and i think that one of the most important things that at

1:23:42

least i remember being brought up with is that

1:23:47

the way we fight domination and oppression shouldn’t be limited and we shouldn’t

1:23:53

try to limit others and how they fight back because we’re not in that same position

1:23:59

though we may all be palestinian and in the process of trying to limit

1:24:05

our tactics strategically in order to exact wins

1:24:11

that has been where it led us with the palestinian struggle we’re now at a point in which oh there

1:24:19

will be a peace process but you have to you have to stop fighting back in this particular way

1:24:25

then the peace process results in 10 000 more settlements more land back more land taken and then

1:24:32

you’re like well now what do we do so they buy time through this mechanism and ironically our experience has been

1:24:40

even with the guggenheim that was the same experience they didn’t give a about the stuff that we were doing here

1:24:46

because it’s a colonial logic right when we were fighting back against them building

1:24:52

guggenheim abu dhabi with with migrant labor we took direct action we took over their walls we kind of

1:24:58

exacted we shut down the museum and then they said okay we’ll talk but

1:25:03

we’ll talk on but you have to stop the direct action so it’s not so much that it’s violence

1:25:10

and non-violence but what are the ways in which we can resist that are unsanctioned that that actually

1:25:17

create leverage and level blows but that’s not the main strategy the main strategy is to find each other

1:25:24

and to create transformative spaces to build these kind of relations

1:25:30

so maybe you know i’ll just end with like this point around violence and

1:25:36

non-violence i have never seen that it’s helpful to try to think of it in terms of like

1:25:41

convincing others as an as you said i think it’s more of like what are the strategies and tactics that

1:25:47

we need to deploy for effective resistance it’s always a question of strategy and

1:25:54

tactics it’s never one of morality or one of modernity or one of civilized or one of whatever

1:26:01

okay sally um back to you

1:26:06

okay i’m just going to hop right in here with the first question um it’s from frank schofield to all the

1:26:12

panelists but it’s first directed towards uh jess kira how do you define or do good political

1:26:19

education that cultivates and inspires political movements

1:26:27

uh i mean i think others should jump in i think this is a big question um but i mean one of the things i’ve

1:26:34

been thinking about is how we learn from

1:26:39

the histories of past struggles and how in order for you in order for us to be able to think

1:26:45

through the you know the creation of a set of political goals that are agreed upon by multiple communities that have a

1:26:52

kind of integrity and are you know informed by a commitment and a

1:26:58

responsibility i feel like we have to do some work to understand our own histories and our own ways of

1:27:05

coming into being in our own sense of epistemology and and how we understand the world and the frameworks that we use

1:27:11

to to draw from um and i have been you know thinking about what it means to

1:27:17

do this kind of work um within the university to some regard because that’s where i’m located and spend some of my

1:27:23

time time teaching but more um recently um outside of the university

1:27:28

not that there’s you know a sort of not that there isn’t a permeable boundary between the two but

1:27:35

in spaces where people are interested in sharing their histories and and

1:27:41

joining conversations in ways that may seem unlikely at the start so instead of a

1:27:48

predetermined list of people that we know are experts that have experiential

1:27:53

knowledge about these things that can speak to these ideas to pull people together in

1:27:58

neighborhoods and in communities that already carry knowledge and experiences they’re just not identified as

1:28:04

or labeled or categorized as the people that can speak to these things necessarily and so i think to be less

1:28:11

predetermined about the kinds of conversations and the kinds of assemblages of people

1:28:17

that come together in some form and i’m i’m i’ve been really thinking back to

1:28:23

some of the work of anti-colonial feminists that i’ve learned from over the years who i actually sharpened

1:28:31

my teeth on political organizing with when i was 18 years old and first moved to saskatoon on the prairies

1:28:36

and it was actually a coalition of native women of immigrant women of women that were west african migrants

1:28:44

that had come to the city and they were working together in coalition trying to do this work of figuring out

1:28:51

how to develop a shared political agenda in a city that was has a long history

1:28:58

of um you know colonial violence against indigenous people is incredibly segregated and divided has

1:29:04

strong assimilation tactics for migrants and immigrants arriving and um so i started to i’m i’m starting

1:29:11

now to think about all those things that i learned when i first began sort of um educating myself about

1:29:19

political work and what it means to do solidarity work and i’m actually finding that to be a

1:29:25

really refreshing return um and i think social media i will also say this

1:29:31

i’m really not a social media person but i i also feel like the kind of the the sort of trafficking of

1:29:36

personality and celebrity on social media has created an entirely new set of

1:29:44

issues for us to deal with within social movement work not that there’s not strategic ways to draw on social media

1:29:50

to be able to advance a political cause but it’s also created an entire way of relating that i feel like

1:29:56

in many ways undermines our ability to understand one another in a real way

1:30:03

can i just build on some of those comments just kieran because i think uh what i hear you saying and

1:30:10

others too is the the absolute importance of face-to-face work uh in the flesh organizing and i think

1:30:18

obviously over the duration of the pandemic we’ve we’ve gotten very deprived to say the least of that

1:30:26

of that kind of experience and also nostalgic for it but so when i hear political education i

1:30:34

think about public education and i think about the social media landscape and the information landscape

1:30:40

in general we just turn on our devices and we are completely inundated by political education it may

1:30:47

not be the kind of political education that we you know the that uh speaks to our political

1:30:55

positions but we’re inundated by it and i think all the more reason why direct action and

1:31:02

and in the flesh organizing becomes all the more important uh that’s why the pipeline uh

1:31:09

struggles and land back lane and standing rock and others really stand

1:31:15

out because it’s those moments when people put themselves their bodies on the line

1:31:21

and take position on the land that crystallizes the attention in a way

1:31:27

i think that nothing on the information or social media landscape does these days people uh

1:31:34

people are increasingly uh they they want to block out most of what’s

1:31:40

coming towards them but you can’t you can’t ignore the direct action

1:31:45

and and and so i think uh it’s a false dichotomy obviously between

1:31:50

political education and direct action because direct tax to form a political education

1:31:57

but i i i really appreciate the attention everyone’s given to

1:32:02

uh struggles actually on the ground which involve face-to-face work

1:32:16

maybe i’ll just echo what um what jess giron was talking about around the need to

1:32:25

really focus on history i think that that’s that’s really important that we understand

1:32:31

um our own histories and then the histories of of the people that we’re working with but i think it comes down to one of the

1:32:38

you know what was one of the central um sort of

1:32:43

ideas that helped uh form around decolonize this place is to really start with

1:32:48

like who we are as a collective um when we talk about the community like

1:32:53

who are we talking about who’s here or who should be here if they’re not here and

1:32:59

and then what do we need to know about each other in order to be working together in in the most

1:33:05

effective way um i think that’s one of the things that during sort of pandemic times we can we can do some of the work there

1:33:12

um just to dig into those histories and try and figure out what it is we need to know about each other in order to to move

1:33:19

forward most effectively and what what are the histories of struggle that we can build on

1:33:26

as we move forward i think there’s another piece of political education we separate the political from the

1:33:32

practical but i think it’s worth asking what it is what what are we learning for you know

1:33:39

what’s what’s the purpose of of acquiring knowledge um around the political

1:33:45

and i think that uh there’s all sorts of forms of learning that we need to do in order to

1:33:51

inhabit the world in a better way um and to build uh capacity and skill um in our own

1:33:59

movements and lives in order to get there um so i think about you know there’s definitely a need for

1:34:05

for more reading and history and oral history and learning about uh other people’s struggles and our own struggles um

1:34:11

there’s also a need for building like practical skills that lead us to where we want to go um we

1:34:19

want the land back can we live on the land you know can we start a fire uh

1:34:24

you know can we can we hunt can we gather the things can we cook for each other there’s all sorts of sort of

1:34:29

practical skill building that i think are part of the work of political education um and it’s about inviting people into

1:34:36

spaces where you can do that kind of capacity building collectively so that we’re actually able

1:34:41

to focus on some of some of the other the other uh direct action of the all

1:34:47

the other work um when we’re sort of in the work of survival

1:34:52

it can be it can feel really hard to kind of jump back and do i learn the histories

1:34:58

and do the reading and that kind of thing so i think we need to bring those things together and not not think of them as separate um that it

1:35:05

should be the people who we’re cooking with and um you know living with and that

1:35:10

the work of living together as is part of the theoretical work we’re doing also

1:35:16

i mean i think that’s the idea around the difference between just the idea to just survive or to thrive as

1:35:22

communities right and i mean like we can say over and over and over

1:35:27

again that you know we’ve been dispossessed of our lands we’ve been uh oppressed by we’ve been over

1:35:34

incarcerated by we’ve but if there isn’t people that are willing to do the on-the-ground work

1:35:40

that uh that we’re doing like it really needs there there needs to be

1:35:46

some catalyst for those conversations to start happening and if we’re not uh you know making

1:35:52

those spaces like this one even yeah i know it being virtual and

1:35:57

what have you but i mean to be able to i know for myself uh you know going to ipperwash is a very

1:36:04

very young teenager after dudley george was shot you know like being shown what that

1:36:10

means for like that’s the education for me that that i that was very important to give

1:36:16

to my kids is they grew up you know as you know we took over a police station when my kids

1:36:22

were quite young and you know we occupied that for several months and like it was

1:36:29

this is work that is ongoing that needs to keep on like that education piece

1:36:35

around uh i really can’t stress that enough but you know and i know for academic folks that

1:36:42

that’s in the schools and in universities and colleges but for uh for folks like myself like that that

1:36:49

education starts at home that’s you know having those conversations with our parents with our

1:36:54

our uncles our aunties are you know the the cousins that you know that we can

1:37:01

you know push them to to have those conversations that are hard because like

1:37:06

you know the trauma that comes with doing the on the ground work like like we’ve we’ve had we indigenous

1:37:15

people in this country have had a hard goal and there’s lots and lots of people who have

1:37:21

you know had to sit through jail like the last time in 2006 after the gunnistato happened like you know that

1:37:27

was a year of my life in a in a tent in a bush and then seven months in jail like four months of

1:37:32

that was sitting in in segregation in the hole so i mean like this is this like this is

1:37:38

something that for for folks that you know are willing to to to put your ass on the line to you know

1:37:46

push these to push the push the movement forward like it

1:37:51

it does take that education but at the same time like you know supporting the folks that are

1:37:57

are doing the heavy lifting like the folks that come in here with us you

1:38:02

know almost eight months ago now like i really gotta take my hat after the fact

1:38:07

that they’re that they’re still here you know and like some of the ally folks that that i know that have you know came in

1:38:14

here with us on day one and still continue to support and all the amazing ways that they do like

1:38:19

i really i can’t say enough about how grateful i am to the to those people that you know are

1:38:26

willing to to you know to do and be all of the ways and make it to to make

1:38:33

this happen because like there’s you know there’s no one two three ten people that can make this

1:38:39

happen like this is it is it needs to be community driven and if that

1:38:45

if you’re able to kind of cultivate those relationships and in community like that’s what it

1:38:51

takes to to really be able to push these push these issues to the forefront

1:39:01

um sally i just want to point something out that because we’re running over time uh some of us may have to leave and

1:39:09

that’s okay but just kieran’s one of them we should try to field the questions that remain perhaps

1:39:16

bunch them three or four that could help kind of encapsulate that and just hear before you leave if you

1:39:23

have any thoughts you want to share with the group please please do

1:39:31

okay i’m gonna ask the question um this one is it’s sort of specific to

1:39:38

arts institutions but i think it has it relates to all of the things all of the

1:39:43

um threads that were in today’s conversation it’s from harry burke it’s thank you for

1:39:48

this beautiful convening i’m really appreciating the careful insightful exchange i have a question that brings

1:39:54

us back to the exhibition space as a site for staging discussions about sovereignty and land struggles

1:39:59

art galleries tend to reify or privilege a certain kind of engagement with representation it seems that each of you as artists and

1:40:06

organizers are nurturing relation relational solidarities that extend beyond the represented

1:40:12

representational field or pictorial plane is there a relation here to the demand that cultural institutions do

1:40:17

more than iterate this significant yet arguably sometimes symbolic gesture of land acknowledgement and to materially engage

1:40:24

with land back movements might there be an important unresolved tension between representational and

1:40:30

and reciproc reciprocal strategies within decolonial aesthetics

1:40:36

and is this something that you found ways to work through in your own art making and community building

1:40:49

just kidding why don’t you go ahead first because you need to leave so uh do you do you want to say anything i

1:40:54

think there are others that are much better suited to answer that question than than i so please go ahead i can

1:41:00

stay for a few more minutes i’ll i’ll write in the chat when i’m ready to leave sorry sorry i have to run everyone no no

1:41:05

worries well first of all shout out to harry um before you know anything else um

1:41:11

nelson do you want to say something or end before we you know because there’s deep tp we can ramble on for two hours about

1:41:18

this specific question uh it would be good to hear from others yeah yeah

1:41:23

we’re all about that you know this relates specifically to the problem we’re facing and i would say

1:41:29

this like if you look at palestinians right right now they’re just doing drawings and

1:41:34

paintings because we want to sell it in dubai right because that’s what ends up happening right so the market

1:41:40

dictates that and i think that we saw this in the context of the whitney organizing for example

1:41:46

you know even though we didn’t call for people to boycott we didn’t call for people we said resist in all the ways you deem

1:41:52

appropriate based on your diverse you know different positionalities that you hold but i think that there’s

1:41:59

the role of the artist and the role of the curator and the role of the institution right now we

1:42:05

want to hear how these things i mean just to add just to add a little bit to it i think

1:42:11

what ends up happening is that because of just how of course the media works through these you know struggles and how it represents

1:42:17

like because a lot of the conversation once again is happening through social media or media in general what you end up happening what you end

1:42:23

up seeing is fall dichotomies like false binaries that get constructed right in this case being like oh as if

1:42:30

uh you know the abolition of the institution or the kind of like you know going moving beyond this

1:42:35

pictorial representational plane and like really addressing the structural cost is at the cost of having that

1:42:41

representational thing that the system’s running uh on its own right now within the diversity equity inclusion system right

1:42:47

um so then you’re basically once again pitted against like you know this false binary that exists and so

1:42:53

yeah i just wanted to add that

1:43:05

there’s a phrase that has appeared in new york on banners and actions and around um

1:43:11

different struggles which is you know public land equals stolen land

1:43:17

and you know the kind of the historical reframing that that does i wonder what that means for how um

1:43:25

we think about universities and art galleries that are you know public and just sort of what

1:43:31

that yeah and what the imperative of land back could mean for those kinds of

1:43:37

institutions and i know it depends on you know very specific contexts and circumstances

1:43:43

in different places but um you know just in the way in which both the

1:43:48

university and the art gallery also oftentimes or as perry was saying places

1:43:53

that talk a lot about principles of solidarity and justice

1:43:59

but what does the material enactment of that what could that actually involve at different kinds of

1:44:05

institutions um that is is i just wanted to kind of echo that that kind of kernel of what harry was um was

1:44:11

posing you know and uh if i may very very quickly just

1:44:18

to add one more layer to that that you’re all aware but you know you have how do these

1:44:23

institutions relate to the land back movements uh but the other question is

1:44:29

how do they relate to repatriation movements i mean one thing is how can they actually ask for uh

1:44:36

giving the land back but not giving the artworks and stolen artifacts back uh

1:44:43

of course that would be contradiction but that would be another and maybe they would be afraid of of speaking about

1:44:48

having the land back because they know that they cannot get away of saying that without also saying

1:44:53

giving the art and giving what they took back from the lands back

1:45:02

i mean you know this is a sticking point and i’ll just i’ll crystallize it and i’ll say it with a lot of love and care but

1:45:09

when you’re when you’re forced into these kind of colonial conditions and generations pass

1:45:15

then seeing yourself on a wall of a place that’s precious becomes affirming to humanity that’s

1:45:23

been under attack for so long no one wants to diminish that but it’s a

1:45:29

cycle that we’re facing because then you have to talk with the people that you want to be in solidarity

1:45:35

with and you have to say look if we keep agreeing to doing this they’re using some of us

1:45:43

as shields for a broader attack on them or the dismantling of them

1:45:51

to produce other sites that can allow for other ways of resistance

1:45:57

so how you know it’s a situation in new york city in particular because

1:46:03

the people that got fired the the more money now is going to come after the pandemic more money is going

1:46:10

to come from more up people that are going to determine the nature of the aesthetics

1:46:15

and they’re going to give some people more diversity and equity and inclusion but what they’re going to do in the

1:46:22

process what they’re going to do is kind of shield themselves from a broader moment in which land must be returned

1:46:29

must be repatriated with role of their place right and the

1:46:36

inclusion of one curator two creators three curators with a broad kind of framework

1:46:42

around abolition and decolonization and what have you still remains within the confines of it

1:46:48

being framed by people with a lot of money that are imprisoned incarcerate kill

1:46:54

sell extract so this contradiction that we’re facing right now is part of how

1:47:01

it relates to aesthetics in our institutions and it’s a hard conversation to have

1:47:07

because no one wants to diminish the struggles that have come before that have led to issues to being more

1:47:14

represented more included but if i’m a person who’s

1:47:19

also seeing the struggle from a palestinian standpoint i don’t want to be included in this up system

1:47:25

and i’m not going to celebrate more inclusion into a up system but i also know why that’s not just a

1:47:32

choice for me it’s a choice for others this is the conversation this is the moment in new york where it’s coming to

1:47:39

a head and i think that it’s whether it’s an indigenous struggle or whether it’s black liberation and

1:47:47

abolition whether it’s anti-imperialism or gender or queerness

1:47:53

or you know you know epstein at moma relationship you know it’s it’s endless

1:48:01

so what do we do there and how can a gallery like guelph for example support the land back

1:48:07

lane movement there in a material way

1:48:12

that is building on the acknowledgement that just came at the beginning of this conversation

1:48:22

well i mean i think that doing this you know like and i think that’s the

1:48:28

capacity to be able for uh you know the university of museums um

1:48:33

for those curators to be able to allow for space for these conversations to exist

1:48:40

to be able to um not only make them something that can happen but encourage

1:48:47

them to happen for uh those conversations that i was talking about that need to

1:48:53

start at home that that bringing those people in that aren’t just the academics of the world that aren’t

1:48:58

just the uh people with letters behind their name but people that have done the work

1:49:04

because i think this is an important distinction certainly in in indigenous communities anyways is

1:49:10

that not you know i don’t none of my none of the

1:49:15

teachers that i’ve had have ever had a series of letters behind their name you know the the people that have what

1:49:21

taught me about the land and taught me about my connection to it like these are these are the elders of

1:49:28

our community people that you know sat with their grandmothers and their grandmothers before them to be able to teach us what it takes to

1:49:36

do this kind of work and i think that bit around uh and i’m not saying that by any means

1:49:44

trying to harp on the academic folks of the world to say that you know this that you guys shouldn’t do

1:49:50

this or that or whatever that that work is important as well but to understand that like

1:49:57

that bit of privilege that not very many certainly from our

1:50:02

community anyway are able to access because of the you know

1:50:07

several centuries of trauma and hardship and you know this possession that we’ve all

1:50:13

accumulated over those those hundreds of years and so i think that it alienates a lot of people when we don’t try and

1:50:20

engage those uh those people that might not uh uh

1:50:29

understand what it means to be in this room or in uh and so i think

1:50:36

that that that alienating people is something that we really need to work on to be able to bring people into the fool to

1:50:42

make sure that people are understanding exactly what it is that’s going on in the language that we use i think is

1:50:48

very important when we do that work because if we’re going to you know

1:50:54

make these academic conversations uh ones that are inaccessible to the people

1:51:00

that could actually do the work that could do that are willing to put their asses on

1:51:06

the line to make sure that their kids and their grandkids because this isn’t about

1:51:11

you know what i’m going to write my thesis paper on this is about making sure that my grandkids at least have an

1:51:16

argument that this land is theirs when it comes time for them to make this same stand

1:51:26

i really really agree with that um that these are spaces that need to function for

1:51:32

people who have been historically excluded from them but that inclusion

1:51:37

itself is not is not enough um i’m reading a new book from

1:51:45

kathryn mckittrick there’s a chapter in the book the book’s called dear science um she’s a black geographer

1:51:53

feminist geographer i i think that there’s a piece of that that really resonated with me

1:51:58

um just talking about she repeats it over and over again uh how description is not liberation and i

1:52:05

think the same thing goes when we’re talking about uh aesthetic practice when we’re talking

1:52:12

about representation that a lot of that can happen without

1:52:17

liberation even being part of the goal um it’s just about getting out there and getting the word out and getting

1:52:23

you know getting these images out in the public sphere and that doesn’t do what we want it to do um

1:52:29

so i think if we if we think about art as practice and as method then

1:52:34

um we can open up a discussion about what it’s what it’s for what it’s leading

1:52:40

towards um and are we engaging with aesthetic practices in ways that are leading towards liberation

1:52:47

i think there are ways to mobilize um in that direction but you know i i want

1:52:54

to i want to skip a lot of the discussion with uh art institutions and curators and you

1:53:00

know if if they can’t figure out a way to work for us then i’m kind of like well it like i

1:53:06

don’t know what i don’t wanna i don’t wanna there’s like this tortured thing that happens about like representation and um conservation

1:53:15

and we don’t even get to the point talking about um like repatriation because it’s like well

1:53:20

there’s all this complexity in how we um hold on to culture and i think um

1:53:27

i mean i’ve written about this a little bit i i want to like go past it and imagine ourselves at the

1:53:32

future point where we’re we’re free you know and and what have we gotten to that point um i talk about that as a

1:53:40

as like a speculative uh indigenous retrospective like we’re looking back

1:53:45

um at what we’ve abolished uh how did we get to that point um and then for the folks who are in

1:53:51

areas where they’re doing curating or they’re working with artists um you know how do we get to that point together uh what can you offer i think

1:53:59

offering space is like a really good start um we need space you know we need land

1:54:05

we need places to gather um we need people who are willing to to work with us in ways that don’t put

1:54:10

us into boxes i think this is part of what i’ve struggled with a lot in working with arts organizations is

1:54:16

that you know i can speak as an activist or i can speak as an artist or i can

1:54:22

speak as an academic and um those things are are harder for

1:54:27

people to deal with in when they’re all one thing um and what i really want to do is to work as a land offender and

1:54:35

to be in better relation with people and it’s the relations with people that is the most important and that’s what

1:54:41

motivates my work that’s the method is is the relation building um and i

1:54:46

think that that’s the work that’s work that arts institutions can pick up

1:54:52

um what it what’s your relation to the the people whose land um you’re occupying uh and how

1:54:58

how can you sort of orient yourself towards strengthening that relationship um

1:55:05

and that that might mean shifting parts of the the structure in the way that you’re organizing and it might mean

1:55:11

looking at the economic structures and funding um and it might mean looking beyond

1:55:16

representation maybe maybe there’s spaces you can offer that don’t even uh aren’t

1:55:21

facing towards um a kind of settler public uh and you know that that that can be

1:55:28

powerful too um you know i think that a lot of that when i think about my own artistic practice it’s uh

1:55:35

it’s basically impossible for me to do art if i think about doing it for white people and if i think about it

1:55:41

in a different way then i think about like how this brings us into different kinds of conversations and different relations

1:55:47

and my relationships with other people i think that that’s that’s where i um feel like art art spaces can actually

1:55:53

be like a really liberatory freeing space um but it requires that

1:55:58

reorientation okay i think we’re one minute from two

1:56:06

pm so i think we might i’m looking at your face i mean i think we should wrap up

1:56:15

yeah and we want to thank we want to thank skyler and nelson and uh and um ann and just karen so much

1:56:23

this has been a great great talk for me just in terms of thinking through some of these

1:56:30

questions with you um uh send a link knit for the follow-up thank you so much

1:56:37

sally yeah i just wanted to say thank you everybody um for this and i just wanted to say one thing i feel like uh

1:56:43

land back is so many things as you mentioned then and then i feel like it’s it’s often so unsettling for people to even

1:56:49

think about what it would mean concretely um so thank you for that um that’s it

1:56:54

yep okay um thank you natasha thank you um

1:57:00

to all of the panelists and to everyone who spoke today and for everyone who was on the call today

1:57:06

um or the conversation rather um we’re going to be hosting the next iteration on march

1:57:13

27th again it will begin at noon so please log on to the art gallery of guelph

1:57:19

website or follow decolonize this place on their social media on their website or on

1:57:24

their instagram to just be in the loop of

1:57:30

when the next conversation will take place again thank you thank you thank you take care everybody

1:57:37

have a good afternoon thanks everyone

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