0:00

Justine: You know, I feel like every time I start a project I say, I don’t know what I’m doing, but I really feel like this needs to happen.

0:06

[Laughter] Right? And it’s like, why are you, you know…

0:11

It’s making space for the things that are kind of ineffable,

0:16

but that have a deep, deep, deep logic.
You know? And the artwork sorts it out.

0:22

Charles: Yeah, exactly. And giving the room for the artwork to sort it out is like, for me that, that is key.

0:28

Otherwise it’s like, what’s the exercise?

0:30

In my work I kind of like reclaim that sense of a future.

0:37

And if you’re talking about this idea world building,
that we’re kind of building that world of the future,

0:45

for me, they’re like these momentary artifacts often.
Whether they’re in performance or in the kind of sculptural realm,

0:56

often I see the work as kind of sitting in the present,
but they don’t quite sit in the present.

1:03

They, they, they kind of

1:05

push back to some memory that I can’t quite grasp
because of all the disruptions in my history.

1:15

There’s so much that I can’t claim in my own history
because I don’t know it.

1:23

And those sort of cultural disruptions
that are repeated in cyclical fashions over time.

1:31

Like obviously the big one,
starting with transatlantic slavery and that ultimate rupture. Right?

1:39

But still they sort of, you know, obviously,

1:42

you know, it’s present in Black music
and Black dance and like there’s sort of this way that

1:49

the culture of that total rupture that we were inflicted upon, we still have this presence in our bodies

1:57

and in our minds and in our emotional lives, in the rhythms that we encounter, and so on.

2:05

So… I’m loosing my train of thought…

2:07

Justine: It’s perfect, I’m following. [Laughter]

2:12

Charles: But yeah, there’s this attempt to kind of find that

2:19

past, or allow that past to emerge, but then kind of projecting it

2:26

as these things that are almost from the future, or from a different space, like they’re not quite from here.

2:35

They’re slightly from somewhere else… It’s funny, it’s like an intuitive space. I don’t know how to hold onto that space.

2:42

I just, you know, try to let that happen in the work
because that seems to be the push the pull for me. Like, you know,

2:51

I want this idea of a future, but I don’t
quite know what the future I want is.

2:58

And I want to have access to this kind of past,

3:03

but I have no way of like… It’s been so, so broken.

3:07

I mean, you know, slavery, but also my
own family’s choosing to migrate from Jamaica, which is,

3:15

you know, all about the kind of internal politics in Jamaica
at that time.

3:20

What wasn’t possible there,
which in itself is a legacy of colonization and slavery. Right?

3:27

So that’s another repetition of that.

3:31

Justine: This is always my question, like these worlds

3:33

that I want to build, how do they continue past
the moment of that encounter or that process or that conversation

3:42

And then it’s so easy to feel quite
defeated at a moment like that. It’s heartbreaking,

3:49

because all the things maybe you’re dealing with were
just the reality, you know, it’s just sort of like the wound is torn open.

3:55

You can’t ignore that that is. That this is what it is.
What it’s always been maybe.

4:02

And that’s like, that’s so hard.

4:06

I always find that so hard that, you’re in a building, you make a kind of space, or you’re in a project, you make a kind of space and then

4:14

very quickly, you see how it can’t be.

4:19

And my thing is like we have to keep trying. We just have to keep trying.

4:23

Charles: Yeah, and I think that kind of draws you to the arts space in a way. That there’s… that they grant you permission to this.

4:34

Like people ask me, what do you do? And I’m like, I’m an artist. And they’re kind of like, okay… [Laughter]

4:43

It just gives you a little bit more latitude.

4:46

Justine: You know, when I started danceing, kind of like I’m going to dance,

4:50

I only did ballet for some reason, because I… And it was my choice.

4:54

Like no one was like, you have to go do ballet. And I was like I’m going to do ballet.

4:57

And I think there was something about it being strict.

5:00

Something about it being way too hard.

5:04

And something about it being completely unachievable.

5:06

That was, like, very enticing.

5:09

Charles: Unachievable in what way?

5:15

Justine: Because it is about an anatomical… like a kind of body.

5:20

That in terms of mobility of joints

5:24

like length of neck, there’s all these weird, which we can talk about how that’s related to the slave trade later.

5:30

Check your teeth, you know…

5:34

That I don’t have. Like I look like a dancer
because I’m short and skinny.

5:38

And I have long legs, but I don’t have these mobilities

5:42

that you’re supposed to have to be a dancer,
or this classical dancer. And I have a butt.

5:48

And that was always such a huge problem for my teachers. Oh it’s too bad about your butt, or else you’re kind of perfect.

5:53

My whole life, my whole life. But that’s okay.

5:57

You figure your way through it.

5:59

So I felt, in a way, like I would never be able to do it.

6:02

And I’m very much one of those people who’s like, Oh, you can’t do that, I’m like watch me.

6:06

So there is something about the pursuit of it.
But then I also started taking modern dance in Ottawa.

6:14

And that was more… I was like oh, I like that…

6:20

That feels kind of rule-breaky, because I also have a very rule-breaky

6:26

part of myself and like

6:28

definitely was raised to be an independent thinker
and to ask questions and to stand up for things that don’t feel right.

6:35

So there’s so much that doesn’t feel right about ballet…

6:39

Charles: You know, it’s
just so rare that you have the permission to dig in with somebody else.

6:44

And, you know, I often want to, but like we
don’t live in that world, that’s like

6:50

these conversations are just regular.

6:54

We kind of have to remain on the surface.

7:00

Justine: Yeah. Not too difficult.

7:02

And not too… maybe like you don’t want to…

7:06

Yeah, it’s a diplomacy thing, but it’s like bad diplomacy, because also then when do you get to it?

7:13

You know, I always say that so often
I try to get on starting terms really quickly with people.

7:19

It’s a joke I don’t really… but you know what I mean? I want to get to that place where there’s been some disruption, that you can’t come back from.

7:27

And now it’s here, so… I also really appreciate
how much you talk about the things you do in those vulnerable ways.

7:36

It’s nice when someone’s like, I don’t know why that happened… [Laughter]

7:44

Charles: No, like yeah. All the best pieces are like that. All of them.

7:48

It’s like I don’t know why I’m doing this thing, but I’m just going to keep f*****g doing it. I’m going to really do it.

7:54

And I’m still going to really do it, even if
I’m really actually still not sure why I’m doing it.

7:59

Justine: And even once it happens, you’re still not sure.
I always find it’s a little bit of like a couple of years later…

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