0:07

if you could just chat a little bit about you know what it is to be showing in edmonton um you know maybe

0:13

particularly for you curtis as you are are born here um raised here grew up

0:18

here but it’s been quite a while since since you’ve actually been in the city and so maybe um you could each sort of

0:25

say a little bit about you know what it is to be showing your work uh here in edmonton in this particular context

0:34

good afternoon everyone i’m curtis hallways santiago the tall waste is a

0:40

ancestral nickname that comes from trinidad because my father and all the santiago

0:45

men would be easily identified in their village because our wastes

0:51

are simply very high and so i’m a tolerance and so i’m recognized as a santiago

0:59

um reason why for me for it is important now specifically now

1:06

uh it’s because this exhibition when i kept thinking why am i interested in

1:11

carnaval from a time period that wasn’t mine and it’s my parents

1:18

for when they were young and first being able to step out into their own and play

1:24

carnival and wear these costumes it’s because i’m from a generation that came to

1:30

canada uh in the 60s late 60s when almost similar to the windrush movement

1:36

in the uk where the commonwealth that had opened up its doors canada or

1:42

the caribbean and so a lot of uh my friends parents who are all around the same age

1:48

are starting to suffer from dementia uh have passed away uh uh the memories are

1:56

shifting and fading and in my text up there it says this this exhibition is

2:02

specifically for my mother and father uh and so not too far from here churchill

2:08

square where the early kerry west festivals would happen is where i began to

2:14

understand my like my culture’s stories and then later in life travel to africa

2:20

and parts of the world and see rituals and festivals that felt very similar

2:27

were happening in in the caribbean in carnival and so uh while my parents are

2:32

here with me on this earth i want them to be celebrated in these spaces i had the opportunity to take

2:40

them to a very kim hamburger banhof in germany where i’m living and prior to entering i’m

2:47

like oh my god they’re going to my dad is going to be so bored this is going to be and

2:53

i was so wrong i had underestimated their visual language and their ability

2:59

to connect to we’re talking about a crack on the ground that runs the length of

3:06

the museum and then there’s a red dot on the wall something like so conceptual and my dad to engage and my mom to

3:12

engage and then i realized i had been excluding them like that teenager who’s embarrassed of his parents from my world

3:19

in a certain way and it was time to really celebrate them and welcome them and so uh uh sorry i’m taking a bit of

3:26

time here bro um last night i had

3:32

friends from kindergarten their moms come and these were the moms that when they

3:37

had to babysit us all as a group would bring us to spaces like this and have us run around and so for them

3:44

to see this little kid who was always coloring with them now on the walls here

3:49

was makes it extra special and it’s a show of celebration and very nostalgic

3:55

and sentimental um

4:00

i’ll take the ball from there well my uh we had a little conversation before that

4:07

where he was telling me all of that and what stayed with me is

4:12

actually what makes it special for me to show here right now it’s actually to be

4:18

able to be next to him you know which is kind of a beautiful

4:23

coincidence because the first time we met we talked about doing something together

4:28

uh but when i understood that he was from here and that he actually experienced

4:34

his caribbean roots in this area you know and now he’s bringing a show

4:40

that is actually talking about relate to what’s happening in the show because we share somehow the same legacy when it

4:47

comes to these events you know i’ve seen these uh job that you know the jab jabs

4:53

many many times in in haiti um so for me this

4:59

it’s kind of like i’m part of

5:04

curtis imagination by extension you know so it kind of creates a different

5:11

perspective uh about the certain things that we’re looking at together

5:17

you know uh so to be together actually we’re nourishing each other

5:22

you know because i don’t want to just see the show as something that is not in relation to

5:28

what’s happening around it you know what i mean so you know if um

5:34

if my show is called it’s called like a world discovered under other skies i would like to believe that what’s

5:40

happening it’s actually what’s up it’s it’s what’s happening on the earth

5:46

and you know this is the sky and then this is it’s completing what is happening

5:52

under that sky basically so yeah i mean that’s for me that’s what

5:57

stays the most because the show i’ve seen it and i can talk about how it was conceptualized later on uh during this

6:04

conversation but i think it’s this kind of invisible collaboration that for me is gonna stay

6:12

in my mind you know um we we talked about

6:18

uh before we talked about what are the works in each other’s shows that

6:25

we consider it important and what are the connections that you see between these works what are the you

6:31

know is there something that resonates with you on my side

6:38

that you believe he’s in conversation with here and i’ll do the same actually because i

6:44

can see a lot of elements well i think first the

6:50

technical the alchemy of the material of paint how it can be

6:56

watered down or it can be thinned out how it can be applied in a very thick gesture over the lean

7:03

those sort of things i see which are obvious but then the other side of it is um

7:11

the my mom in her previous life

7:17

before accepting spirituality in new forms i would say that the spirit realm

7:23

of the works where things feel ancient but contemporary at

7:29

the same time that’s what i i find the connection um

7:34

there’s this yin and yang where you can stare at a painting that’s so

7:40

beautiful visually beautiful but then the underside of it is quite dark

7:45

and it’s the same here where there’s this is meant to be joyful but within joy there is a range of emotions that

7:52

can you can be scared and still experience joy like when you’re running from the jab jab in the street or the

7:58

conquer on in senegal you know there’s a smile on your face but especially in senegal if you’re caught by the

8:04

conqueror you’re going to be beat by this group of newly initiated men like it’s quite dangerous and so those are

8:12

constantly at play you know and where i feel like with your show it meets me

8:18

your work it meets me where i’m at and when i’m willing to be like okay you

8:24

want to look into the dark side today and you can see those the the things of humanity that

8:30

aren’t always sweet and pleasant but or if i’m like not wanting to accept that

8:36

enjoy the work yeah so there’s like a there’s a sense of openness i mean that’s also what i’m

8:41

seeing in this in the show also is that um i don’t feel like the work is trying to

8:48

convince me of something it’s a work that is open it’s a work that is actually um

8:54

it’s not seducing me but is he’s accepting to be interpreted in many

9:00

different ways you know i think it’s um and that perspective uh

9:06

feeds the complexities of our legacies you know what i mean and not just as

9:12

with the carnival or with dictatorships and things like that or his historical moments but also as black men black

9:19

people you know and you talked about spirituality which i think is very important because

9:26

to to address that to accept that we’re spiritual beings i

9:31

think it’s all it’s also accepting that we you know that’s part of our human it’s

9:36

accepting our humanity but the same with the same breath [Music]

9:42

it’s needed i think it’s needed because um

9:48

it’s heavy sometimes to be perceived as a monolith yeah um

9:55

and i think this this perspective reduces the possibilities for us to be different things in the

10:01

world you know and to be fragile also to be vulnerable and to be you know all these things

10:08

uh you have a you have a little yeah yes

10:14

i have a one in he’s uh one year and six months felix how how

10:21

you talked about your parents you know and how they live things that was transferred to

10:27

you what do you think you will transfer to your kid to your

10:33

boy i hope uh as

10:39

for a long period of time um family lineage was very short like uh my parents it wasn’t

10:47

as important to them as it is to the next generation i think especially because when you said growing up in in

10:54

port-au-prince when you were given the catalogue of agnes martin and all these people you

11:00

could easily insert yourself in this world because being a person of color wasn’t because

11:06

you’re surrounded by people of color and you’re like oh this is a thing that exists in the world and i can exist in the world like we’re like all these

11:11

other artists for children of the diaspora where maybe you’re not constantly surrounded by

11:17

people that look like you there’s this search for like where do i come from what are what what are my

11:22

roots and as over time through travel and and recently in tennessee a place i

11:30

would never think that i would find more information about myself my uncle calls

11:35

me and says we have a cousin who is uh was a chemistry professor

11:40

in just outside of knoxville you should contact him because he has the a lot of the family history and so one of the

11:46

first things he tells me is that oh yeah your great grandfather was a scottish

11:51

farmer who came to the island of saint vincent and died in the volcano when the

11:57

volcano erupted he refused to leave and he was outside always doing his thing and breathing in

12:02

everything it’s what and from that his daughter my my um

12:08

then left and came to trinidad started a whole other uh on my father’s side his

12:15

grandfather is a white frenchman so what i want to pass on to felix is that

12:21

we’re made up of so many people and that the world is a space where you’re not

12:27

just going to be viewed as a mixed race child and your the complexities are beyond

12:33

labeling and that because of that the world is yours as well and you belong in all the

12:38

spaces that you can enter because that was felt that i could go to certain spaces

12:44

because people would alienate you alienate you or make you feel or make a comment that you shouldn’t be there

12:51

and that’s what i what i hope to pass on to him that through these stories and the more stories that i begin to tell

12:57

and that there’s that there’s there’s yeah that that information is there for him to uncover

13:05

yeah something you said also that i really liked

13:10

uh i asked him what what what what did he wanted his his kid to be you know he

13:16

said i want him to be happy i want him to be kind and i want him to be proud proud proud confident and comfortable

13:23

you know and i think that’s that’s kind of that’s they really got to me because i don’t want kids yet right

13:29

but uh a lot of my friends are having kids and yeah i can see them change you

13:35

know their their beliefs and they’ve kind of built a different sense of preservation of themselves suddenly

13:41

because you know they’re kind of faced with yeah they want to also secure that human being the more they can and

13:47

give as much as they can talking about giving i want us to talk about two things

13:55

generosity and time do you think it’s important to be generous as an

14:00

artist and what does that mean to you and i’ll answer the same thing later it comes for me it comes down to my

14:07

mentor an indigenous artist in vancouver lawrence paul

14:20

and i knocked on his door one day after walking past and seeing his work

14:26

and i was wanting to become an artist and i knocked on his door and i asked if he would show me how to paint and all

14:32

these things because i had seen his work in a gallery and started dreaming about his work and then one day i’m going

14:38

along my route in vancouver and i’m like man this guy’s got a lot of lawrence paul’s and i look further into the condo

14:44

and it’s lawrence there painting and he took me in and he just would always say the one day

14:50

some some scruffy-looking kid is going to come knock on your door and you’re going to have to pay it forward also

14:58

another thing um was like you’re gonna cross the finish line your job is to stand at that finish line and

15:05

make sure that everyone who resonates or connects you looks like you whatever but

15:10

feels drawn to you you to wait and make sure that they cross that line as well and i just think you know

15:16

uh yeah oh they want you to move your mic up yeah

15:22

i just think that uh the way towards abundance is to be generous and the more

15:29

you give of yourself and your energies and your time i’ve found that it’s been reciprocal when people are just more

15:35

than willing to give me a moment of their time or push my career forward and all these

15:41

things yeah what about you uh

15:47

there’s two layers there’s the there’s the generosity of

15:53

sharing the work or actually the relationship that i have with the work and

15:58

the generosity as a human being you know because um

16:04

they’re very very close they’re different um

16:09

and i think the the there’s something about

16:14

making art and the mastery of making art for me that

16:21

relates to the capacity to to pass it on you know to pass it on your understanding and to

16:27

understand and to really get that um

16:34

that knowledge that you have is only valuable when it’s transferred you know

16:40

same the knowledge in terms of how you do it what matters for you in the work but also

16:46

the work itself you know it’s important to give access to the work to your

16:52

the best way you can you know because you know i was telling you before

16:58

i think we will be judge the finish line by why we gave not what we’re taking

17:06

away with us you know so that’s my mentality in terms of in terms of

17:12

who i’m becoming as a as a human being and that also connects to the generosity of mentoring people

17:18

you know because like you said when we were in certain places growing up they weren’t people like us

17:25

and because of the privilege i have now it’s important for me to be the person that i

17:31

would have liked to met you know because i made a lot of mistakes which is good

17:38

let me take your skin yeah but if i can tell someone that looks like me in any

17:44

format way that you know there’s a few holes here and there and you know just so they can uh

17:50

get further yeah you know and protect their sensitive hearts because often yeah

17:56

yeah to be you don’t even have to be very sensitive

18:01

we’ll get it yeah it’ll get you i feel like we you know

18:06

you know we talked about that briefly that

18:11

to be to be an artist you need to have a sense of confidence in yourself because

18:17

regardless of our aspirations artists or not

18:22

i really believe that this world is working really really hard to take our confidence and dignity away from us

18:29

make us doubt ourselves and not reach our full potential and when we talked about it

18:36

we both had a strong confidence not that

18:52

of not even having a body of work maybe you’ve just painted

18:59

a terrible portrait at like 14 15 but then to come to a museum and

19:04

be like yeah yeah i can see myself here like and just

19:12

you know it’s like well you’re a long way from that but that that feeling of uh of like

19:20

we’re saying with basquiat that radiant child where everyone i think who starts on the journey not everyone but most

19:25

people i feel starts on the journey feel that there’s just something a little bit special about what they’re doing that

19:31

will warrant being on this wall even though you know they may not be there yeah that’s that’s

19:36

uh i totally agree and i think it’s uh to believe that i think it’s important for everybody to

19:42

believe that they’re special because we are you know i’m not trying i’m not saying that to

19:48

seduce you or anything but i i really believe that you know when you’re entering the world and you

19:54

manage to preserve that sense of uniqueness inside of you

19:59

you tend to do unique things you know and that’s i think it’s important for

20:07

for all of us to grow in a in a healthy way you know and what about time what’s up with uh

20:15

time time well that painting taught me a bit about

20:21

time in the sense of um it was the last one i did while i was on residency and i think it’s probably one

20:28

of the strongest because it had the least amount of time and it had gave me the least amount of time to overthink yeah and uh there was

20:36

an urgency there that then has sparked a new confidence in me that will

20:42

go on to the next painting and it doesn’t mean that the next painting i do is going to take oh just be like

20:48

because it’s never that way you go i got this this should be a few hours or a few days and then you

20:55

get beat up by the the work and you’re like oh but uh it is it is it has taught me a lot

21:02

about just that it’s possible when i am very focused

21:08

that the amount of time that i’m given i can make something that feels good to

21:14

me and it’s not that i need months no i need months to do it and because with

21:20

the birth of felix i’ve had to repri i had to prioritize i had no boundaries and we talked about

21:26

this that thing we’re saying we talked about this yesterday anyways i had no boundaries with art it would be

21:33

well it’s your mom’s retirement party and i’m like oh but i got this painting

21:38

on the wall or it was like nothing would come before the idea and now that’s just not the case like it’s just

21:45

not there’s this little life that any moment i spend with him it not only feeds me but i’m watching him

21:52

and it’s like yeah i don’t need 12 hours in the studio of just lounging and exploring my mind i can

22:00

prioritize other things and so yeah that’s but then there’s also

22:05

um time with the time in the sense of i love things that look

22:13

this drawing originally this canvas originally started in 2017 it was rolled

22:18

it’s been folded it’s been so by the time i started painting on it there were creases there were marks that that had

22:25

happened that really then dictated the direction of it and i feel like it completely enhanced the and it loosened

22:32

me up so the patina of of the sun dry out you know fading pigment i’m upset

22:39

i’m seduced by what actual time and conditions can do

22:44

to a work and that it’s not like when um last thing i’ll say is i remember

22:49

looking at manaes in books and it’s so glossy it’s so it looks like

22:55

a jolly rancher candy it’s just and then you see it in person and it’s hair and

23:01

it’s cracked and it’s just oh and you’re like oh that’s that’s even better

23:06

that’s even better so i i still i when i look at these works i’m like they’re too new to really

23:14

do what they’re going to need to do they like they need to that charcoal needs to possibly have

23:20

gotten rubbed off when it’s re-rolled and sent somewhere it needs that weathering like the memory that my

23:26

parents of are telling me like in the audio my mom my father and i sitting with my

23:33

son sitting around the kitchen table my mom and i are cooking a traditional dish and my parents are trying to recall a

23:39

specific carnival a fight happened and it’s like seinfeld they’re talking over each other

23:46

they’re talking over each other and they’re like and then all sudden their memories sync up and the lyrics are slightly different

23:53

the melody is different from each one but it’s we know what’s happening there and that is what i hope the works in time

24:00

begin to feel like i i had a an answer but i got

24:06

carried i’m in the carnival right

24:12

after the the rum punches yeah it’s kicking uh i’m gonna uh build on what you said

24:20

in terms of the uh the patina because i’ve made paintings that are actually titled patina

24:25

because at some point i really wanted to have the feeling that i’m not creating the work but i’m finding it like the

24:32

word is already on the canvas and i’m just scratching i’m scratching and while i’m scratching and rubbing and all of

24:39

that what is actually supposed to be there is it’s taking more and more uh he’s getting more and more momentum

24:45

and then this this thing starts appearing because i’m very much interested in more modes of apparition

24:51

you know how the how do you go from uh from an idea to something that feels like something and then how do you

24:59

decide to keep certain areas of that thing and and take it to maturity to a certain point

25:05

uh but i think it’s uh the idea of

25:11

not creating something but finding it take away

25:16

that sense of authorship like this is my work this is this idea i

25:21

think is it’s kind of obsolete if we agree that we’re just passing on

25:29

we’re translating reality in a way that is very close to all of us you know

25:35

uh so it’s not really us you know what is i was telling what what is really known

25:42

is the capacity to jungle to jungle to juggle juggles right yeah thank god to

25:48

juggle with the transformation you know and the works become the residue of uh you

25:57

know juggling you know what i mean um and i think

26:04

that perspective for me takes away a lot of pressure because i don’t feel like um

26:10

because this object has its own intelligence i don’t have this kind of sense that this is mine

26:16

or i have a responsibility towards it

26:22

you know i mean even though i do can i i have two

26:27

the first question is um do you ever sketch a composition and then work

26:34

it happens sometimes sometimes um the sketching of the composition is very

26:40

much like framing a picture because

26:46

their own lines floating and once they hit the canvas suddenly there’s there’s limits there’s a moment

26:52

the line stops existing because it’s outside of the frame but then you know in photography you

26:58

learn that you can you can point into things that are outside of the frame and vice versa

27:05

so i sometimes i do organize just to kind of sit the figure or the place to say

27:11

this is where it’s going to be briefly but since they’re very very basic lines yeah just so i know

27:18

that this figure is not in the center of the painting for example you know when you say the when you talk about the

27:25

discovering my i feel like my painting practice is very much one of discovery

27:31

and you can tell when it feels confident where like i’m going like this yeah

27:36

whatever’s under here i’m going for it or it’s like what’s the difference what’s the

27:41

difference what visually how do you how would you like describe that or like you know say that

27:51

that one was like jesus i’m still composing with it you know this is like

27:58

this yeah that is just

28:03

and what’s the difference for you like currently by how do you internally um

28:09

even my physicality of while i’m drawing if i’m open and i’m like with that

28:19

this it was like

28:25

a step back and yeah not just attacking it and

28:31

that’s why this feels still unresolved to me it feels still open like it’s

28:37

waiting for that moment when i lose all preciousness of the fact that it’s

28:42

since 2017 and i just surrender to whatever you’re going to be

28:48

you’re going to be and i will put you away after that it’s not there yet there’s nothing more

28:54

i would want to add to that canvas there’s nothing i could there’s not even looking at it now

29:00

i don’t see one thing i could do differently here i’m still like

29:05

what the what leads me to think that what i would love to do and experiment with you in the future

29:11

is to you know when they first start excavating and they put the pins around and they and the soil isn’t i would like

29:18

for us to send each other our initial excavations the first line the first

29:24

and then allow each other just to then uncover and discover from that point

29:30

even if it’s not lines it’s paint whatever that removal that scratching of the surface i would like to know what

29:36

happens when i scratch at your surface what appears to me and vice versa

29:44

i would i would like to because i uh i just feel like i’ve always been waiting

29:49

for my contemporary like frank bowling had hockney and him and rb

29:57

katai and all these guys who went to slay they had each other uh and i feel like now at this stage where

30:03

i’m getting more confident where i can look at my friends who are doing amazing work and feel no jealousy and feel no

30:09

like oh i’m not good enough like what is going on i can look at their work and feel be curious and feel proud that i’m

30:16

even in connection and dialogue with these people and i feel like over the last few years you and i the

30:23

conversations we had the work is so different but it’s like i just yeah like i i feel very honored

30:31

that i go through this this game this this this time period

30:36

with looking at what you’re doing and how you navigate the art world we’re in a time right now where a lot of

30:44

i’m just going to be candid a lot of young black artists are

30:49

really coveted by the market in the early 2000s there was chinese painters and artists that were like

30:55

super hot you have to get them blah blah and some really continued on and a lot lost the the value

31:01

but it’s like it’s it’s it’s it’s it feels very vicious and then there’s a time not too long ago which is still

31:08

going on well female figurative painters or painters who are doing queer scenes it’s just like

31:13

oh we wanna we why do we want it you know and uh i i i just um

31:18

yeah the way you navigate it all with it not being solely about

31:24

the color of your skin or the way you dr it’s about this rigor and this intensity and and and

31:32

dedication to the craft and i yeah i admire that so much

31:37

i admire your uh your gift too thanks miller the

31:42

something you said about that painting about digging um [Music]

31:47

i i’m curious to know is it the the fact that you don’t know where

31:53

you’re going right within the painting uh is this something that and you’re do you deal with that in your life i

32:00

don’t know where i’m going yeah but you know yeah you have a sense of where you’re going and and how do you bring that those kind of certainties that

32:06

you’ve built over the years in the work and and how do you compose with uh with

32:12

not knowing because uh i feel very grateful to be able to do do art because the the

32:19

the fact that i’ve spent so many times trying to make a good painting

32:24

um it creates a kind of it forces me to build patience to build

32:31

a kind of like relationship to time a relationship to mistakes yeah relationship with

32:38

um with several elements that of my character

32:43

you know and i’m curious to know how does your work informed your your growth

32:49

as as a you as a man this blank list

32:55

is the idea that the manifestations the list of the your bucket list of things you want are on the other side

33:03

it’s only for him to see he’s the trickster so his tongue is kind of like like he’s showing

33:09

you the paper but you’re like there’s nothing there but on the other side the list of and i’m always thinking about

33:16

i’ve always had faith i remember when i distinctly told my mom

33:22

in the catholic church one day i’m like i don’t believe what this guy is saying i don’t want to come anymore

33:28

and she didn’t make me go to church anymore so when people ask are you religious i’m like i’m not religious in

33:34

the sense that i believe in one denomination the greatest thing though i did get from my mom teaching me about

33:39

religion with faith in in my most destitute lowest times where

33:45

it’s like okay is it going to be this cadmium red oil stick that’s 28

33:51

or is it gonna be groceries for the week and i choose the cadmium red oil stick

33:57

there’s faith in that whatever that investment is that it’s gonna pan out it’s got it’s got to pan out and even

34:04

like that has never never waned and so

34:10

that is the underlying current of i’ve always then my mom would say be careful what you

34:15

asked for you’re a manifesto i would watch you as a little kid dream about blah blah blah blah and

34:22

you’d make up the story and then this thing kind of comes true so i would always be like

34:27

like the ones i liked was with van gogh and and frank bowling and be like i hope

34:34

that my career isn’t like warhol isn’t like uh you know like where you

34:39

just take off and you’re super huge and that’s i wanted it to be steady and recognize that i hope there’s a moment

34:45

when people are looking at my stuff being like this is horrible this isn’t it you don’t have it

34:52

because those are the the artists that i would always read about like years and years later because maybe it

34:59

wasn’t their time and when i first started doing the dioramas oh i got laughed at

35:05

laughed at galleries being oh that’s cute we don’t look at art like this

35:11

[Music] so yeah i i’m within the uncovering

35:18

i know that one day this will resolve itself and that feeling will be like when you finish the hardest level in

35:24

mario or some video game like but i’m i have faith that it will get

35:30

there and patience that’ll get there because i’m in this forever i’ve worked an office job that’s on you it couldn’t it couldn’t go

35:37

for me i couldn’t the security that other friends had didn’t feel like security to me yeah

35:43

yeah that’s beautiful man that’s really nice

35:50

uh i have a question for you actually in relation to the infinite series um

35:58

i’m interested to know because i know what you said it’s the series that this it’s not it’s not stopped it’s something

36:03

that you continuously as long as my hands i have your hands i have the dexterity to do it yeah

36:10

at what moment that you understood that it’s something that you’re gonna be doing forever because i have a relationship like that with a project

36:16

which is a drawing book that um i produced five years ago and i said to

36:22

myself every five to six years i will produce another drawing book that will summarize a selection of drawings

36:29

and the the idea is to have a kind of lineal kind of growth and understanding of my

36:35

perspective as somebody who’s drawing and i’m just committed to it so next year i technically we have to work on

36:41

this second book but uh actually i don’t i’m answering i’m

36:47

asking you a question but i’m asked and i’m wondering like i’m asking myself the same question i don’t even know the

36:52

answer yet but i’m curious to know when did you know in that in the making of these this series that it’s something

36:58

that you will be doing for the rest of your life okay at what moment there’s like i think there’s

37:05

there’s two or there’s like no let’s say there’s two um

37:10

when i so i make these tiny tiny sculptures and jewelry boxes

37:15

that we we during the pandemic like during the opening closing periods of the

37:20

pandemic we were showing here and they’re just tableaus of scenes from

37:26

either art history or personal life the ones i chose to show here were image or little tiny scenes

37:32

using like train scale uh ma of my parents basement in the 1970s and

37:39

the series was called soca in the suburbs and so it was the 70s shag carpet that orange bar the orange rotary

37:46

phone the avocado green all of those those feel the shag carpet uh

37:52

um so with that series when i made the first one i had asked the universe after seeing on

38:00

my first trip to the met a portrait by van gaal of of just just a self-portrait and the

38:07

line of people to see this portrait from all walks of life we’re talking like the construction guy with his kids it’s

38:14

summertime he’s got to do something to like you know the the european art people who are you know with their

38:20

perfectly round glasses and you can tell by the aesthetic that he’s probably an architect or something like

38:25

these it was like these these stereotypes were all there but they all were there to see this piece of art and

38:31

i was like i hope i make something one day that is almost like pop music in a sense that no matter who i show it to it

38:37

resonates and when i made the first diorama i would be catching a bus early in the morning and there was this

38:43

chinese older chinese woman who would we would sit in silence because our worlds felt like they couldn’t be further apart

38:48

and one day i had the courage to go like this to her and she opened it and that bridged the gap and every morning

38:55

after that did you have another one and we would talk and there was this and i was like okay this is the thing

39:01

because my music would be very specific you have to like rap or this or you have to like everything else was very if my

39:07

paintings had to be very like you have a specific taste if you like the type of work that i’m doing the dioramas across

39:14

the board and that’s when it was like this is that’s why i called the infinite infinity series because i also had an

39:21

art critic early in my life say well how long can this be a thing and i’m

39:26

like you would never turn to a painter and be like well how long can you paint on canvas for like i felt it was just so so crazy you

39:34

know and so that yeah you know those two moments after that

39:39

them telling me that i’m like well i’m never stopping this change your life yeah yeah that’s beautiful

39:48

i never thought i saw that coming it’s interesting that you see that those objects

39:54

they touch people regardless where they the realm of life

40:00

regardless of the subject matter it could be highly political it could be and when you say touch what

40:05

draws me to them is that often these ring boxes some of them i’ve had are 100 years old

40:11

some are 25 years old some are fi they’ve been held by i get them mainly from vintage stores ebay

40:17

they’ve been held and sat in a drawer and and you

40:22

know little i remember always opening up my mom’s engagement box to the point that it was like worn down and like it

40:29

it has this history of frequency running through it a patina you know and

40:35

of life yeah the idea of not knowing what’s i think it’s playing with something that

40:41

like you know it’s playing with that with the moment of i can’t stop thinking about this kid

40:46

that you have this gift and you’re just like there it is and then you’re like oh that you know the kid is is excited and

40:53

i think it’s a part of us that never changes that playful yeah that playfulness that there’s something in

40:59

this to discover there’s something in this that that you know and it’s so little that it’s

41:05

personal you know this discovery is for me you know and i think strangely enough

41:12

good paintings big or small they have the capacity to kind of draw you in

41:18

and it starts i just i like to say a good painting it takes your eyes then it takes your body then it takes your soul

41:25

you know and if you’re ready to if you’re ready to let go to it it will grab you you

41:32

know deeper and deeper and deeper and that’s the same experience when you know with with this it’s intimate

41:37

and you can see oh so much you know let me ask you something as you say

41:43

vigilant you make these gestures your ceramics your works

41:49

can feel very have very serious and not to say that ceramics aren’t serious but

41:55

there is it feels for me more of a playful element do you feel that when you were

42:00

and what do you attribute that playful feeling yeah well the the

42:06

it’s funny you’re talking we talked about discovery and opening the box because there’s an immediacy

42:12

in tracing those lines um even though it’s a long process in

42:18

terms of the cooking the yeah all the after the after care but but the the the shaping of the lines and there’s two

42:24

artists that influenced me and this is george lyoto that you probably know or you should look up he’s a haitian

42:31

metal cutter okay and uh build trailer yes you know the way that i eat i see it

42:37

now the lines i see it down yeah creates strong metaphors you know in very simple ways i used to say that

42:44

uh the best artists are the ones that mastered the shortcuts in their work

42:51

because we’re all trying to do a good painting that’s hard you never step up there

42:56

yeah you all of us religiously trying to do a

43:01

good painting you know and it’s sometimes it’s it’s a good day sometimes it’s a bad day but we’re all

43:07

aiming the same energy and what happened is

43:12

as you make more and more and more paintings you’re trying to look for shorter ways

43:18

to get to where you need to go less illustrated for me yeah yeah you see that

43:23

every we all trying to find the shortest way to get to where we want to go not that we want to get there faster yeah we

43:30

just want to see it because we’re the first to explore we’re the first to see our work

43:36

so we’re the first to have a heart on yeah and we’re the first to know my god this is yeah

43:41

i i’m enjoying this right so it’s kind of a selfish context but

43:46

when when uh the the the ceramics for me

43:53

when i’m doing it uh the cutting and all of that things happen very fast you know there’s

44:00

moments you’re like because if you cut it in the wrong way you just you just move it yeah right so

44:06

that’s why that’s where the playfulness comes into play because you’re in direct relationship with uh with the material

44:12

we talked a lot about the joys of and the importance of naivete

44:18

because it allows you to step into spaces maybe you shouldn’t have but you’re there now um

44:23

your entry into ceramics was there training or was it like uh

44:29

like primarily self-taught in that medium it’s self-taught and what got me to that

44:35

is the the alchemy you know the ultimate idea that you can take the four elements

44:42

and create an object that has a spiritual value for me that was because maybe that’s

44:48

what i was trying to do in painting you know but to literally use air like

44:54

soil a fire and water water and then put it together in

45:00

a way that just generates something that touches first me and then other people

45:06

i was like i need to i need to kind of dive into this and thankfully the

45:12

curator uh pushed me to do some more because i did the first one in china and

45:18

then when i came back it was like we would like a few of them but then it exploded and now i’m full on doing sculptures

45:25

literally 3d and if you told me i would be doing this i would have been laughing yeah you know

45:30

but to get it comes from the the playing with your hands and and then just like beating the

45:37

the the soil literally the clay and then end up with something like okay

45:42

my dog yeah and because i’m a pain i i use the paint a lot of colors

45:48

i can see how i’m going to blaze it you know yeah it’s kind of like i’m already three step if it doesn’t pop and

45:55

uh in the kiln because the surroundings that’s where i learned to do this

46:00

a lot you know you just surrendered to like it goes like this when i started my my

46:06

mentor at the time who’s my assistant now told me you need to learn to let go

46:11

from the get-go because this thing you you you might get to the finish line and

46:19

lucky you if you don’t you might miss a few feathers or you might not get there at all you

46:24

know yeah and i’ve went through all of the phases of putting a piece that cracks putting another one that blew up

46:30

putting another one that got to the finish line and and and so

46:35

it’s it’s um it’s the alchemy of it and figure it out you know to

46:42

and bring it some into my painting you know

46:48

how do you feel about we take field some questions are there any questions

46:55

or comments we can go both ways or disagreements also yeah so

47:01

we’re not here with any kind of precious knowledge

47:08

okay okay so this acts as a personal map um of my journey and my family’s journey

47:15

as i know it so hidden in lines or for just something very clear

47:21

this is monrepo aka the scheme that’s the nickname for

47:26

the neighborhood that my mom and dad grew up in and met met in and so

47:32

here we have these christmas lights that hang from in my mom’s veranda they hang around this

47:39

column but they then turn into outline alberta specifically sherwood

47:45

park as it comes up through here and tucked in behind uh

47:50

through various points for or let’s say the reason why the great wall of china was here is because i was manifesting to

47:56

have my work be shown over there i’ve always wanted to see the great wall of china since very small and i’ve realized

48:03

that i could use my art and my ideas to make some of these things happen and so when this

48:09

painting leaves here in to shanghai and so

48:15

this was this drawing was placed on here in 2017 before i started to develop the contacts

48:20

um the the power of the number six is uh the of like more life uh the

48:28

continuation of life uh and also can be considered uh if you get double sixes

48:34

it’s lucky those sort of things and so the dominoes constantly in various ways add up to six six here six here we have

48:40

six here then we have six here again and then this is a six as well so

48:47

there’s just it’s like codes little secrets and codes of spaces the

48:53

rockies i lived in vancouver for a long period of time here’s a silhouette where

48:58

there’s some of the facial my mom and it’s meant to act as this kind of angel flying throughout over the

49:04

whole scene uh waterways from within trinidad uh different

49:10

lakes uh not lakes sorry little rivers and streams that are important and places i’ve visited and it’s i

49:18

initially thought it was something that would be folded up and it’s unfolded and it acts like it sits in your pocket and

49:23

it’s always changing this is my mom’s yard where she finally built her dream

49:29

house in trinidad and she often sits in the veranda which is out of frame and when we first when i first started

49:35

conceiving this work her and i were sitting here together talking and so it’s like a collage i continue to

49:42

add elements from my story and a reminder and but also again my i’m a bit

49:48

i believe strongly in manifesting and projection and so just this is key to me because my brother who is uh

49:56

my nephew’s here his dad would always tell me write it down write it down spelling is casting a spell you want it

50:03

to happen write it down just don’t say it don’t just text it and write it down and so i have tons of lists that if

50:09

you’re to see my studio you see all these goals and dreams and and hopes on

50:15

these things yeah yeah and then

50:20

again outlines of different places countries and provinces and yeah spaces i’ve inhabited

50:27

and there’s just there’s just so many the drawing initially was just it was more of like a map and just tons of

50:33

lines of spaces intersecting into creating these abstract shapes and then over the last since january is when i

50:40

started painting it well that’s that’s that’s me

50:50

well that’s me initially i took this picture and it was a a selfie and he was holding a cell

50:56

phone but i felt that was like just a little too heavy-handed i’m like i’m obviously in the work you don’t need a fully

51:02

rendered image of my face i didn’t want it to be that so then i started thinking more and more about the draft jab jab or

51:09

the trickster eschew who’s always kind of playing jokes and has all the secrets and

51:15

like i said his little his tongue is sticking out as he’s like playing another game with everyone but

51:22

uh the jab jab horn and uh this was when i was in my marvin gaye vibe when i was always wearing a

51:28

toque rolled up and uh this was this was this uh was actually taken during my

51:33

first trip to china so but it represents me

51:54

[Music]

52:01

it’s not fun but i get a lot of satisfaction do you have paintings that were just fun

52:08

um or like some that are just you know you just have to get it out and it’s just

52:14

your heaviness kind of thing but there’s a satisfaction what

52:19

well you can you hear me i think it’s online yeah okay great so

52:25

uh the [Music] it’s it’s it’s all of that you know in the sense that there’s

52:30

paintings that uh there’s something that happened in 2015

52:38

and that’s particularly for this idea of urgency okay and in a painting

52:44

in 2015 i had a an accident and i almost died and when i came out

52:50

from the accident after recovering um it was during my graduating show

52:56

and at that particular moment i i was working on a book called story

53:01

of the eye from george bataille um i you should read it if you haven’t it’s

53:06

really good very funny book um and what happened is that

53:12

uh you know i literally almost died and when i came to myself

53:18

i i asked myself if this was my last show would it be about george bataille

53:24

story of the eye the answer was no all right and at that particular moment i had to

53:30

ask myself um

53:35

what is necessary for me right now because that i’m i’m an artist i do art

53:42

and i want to do it particularly for that show and from that point on with a sense of

53:49

urgency that doing it is necessary to me

53:54

i’m telling you that story because there’s certain paintings in that show where i

53:59

started them with a concept that was important to me at the time

54:05

but then the painting just took me somewhere completely different

54:11

you know and in the in certain pieces with a sense of physical urgency

54:17

not just like mentally but my body was craving for putting

54:23

something out and sacred burning is a good example in collision also why i’m

54:28

like okay i’m going to trace this trace that will be blind and when it started this is not what was supposed to happen

54:35

basically on the other hand sometimes i make pieces about i i did a piece of

54:42

ability or if i want to stay on in the show prophetess

54:47

uh two one or two anyways there’s there’s pro there’s one of the prophetess here where

54:53

i started with a strong concept and i had to build on that so it was more difficult for me to to slip right

55:00

and because i work with the formless with the incapacity to to grab something

55:06

sometimes i work with on several paintings because there’s some day i come to the studio

55:13

i cannot contain what i what needs to get done so i cannot work on that painting now i

55:20

have to focus on other things sometimes i stop i read or i call a friend do i have a beer

55:26

whatever i need to kind of uh myself you know when we were talking the

55:32

important being in the studio is not is mainly to spend time with yourself

55:39

you know that’s why i said of being an artist so far taught me a lot about my humanity

55:46

because i’ve learned to be patient i’ve learned to to sit with my anger i’ve learned to

55:53

um you know accept not having answers on certain things

56:00

so all of that thankfully was nurtured by a studio practice

56:13

oh you want anything you go for it yeah yeah okay um my my concept well my concept the way i

56:21

understand titles it’s always like that it’s like uh it’s like i stand right here

56:26

and i have a rock in my hand and i throw the i can

56:31

and where where where the rock lands that’s the title of the piece and by what i mean by that is

56:38

even if the title is really really far there’s always something uh coherent or

56:45

that is related to to me and sometimes the rock falls right here

56:50

you know what i mean and then it’s obvious that i’m trying to portray something a moment or somebody

56:56

um but title it it took me a lot of time to understand how important it was

57:03

because just like uh colors were the first signifier of the aura

57:09

of the piece because the first thing you the atmosphere the piece even by from far you can see

57:14

certain the colors are you’re drawn to them or not a title is also something that adds

57:21

another layer to um the

57:26

imagination around uh around the object that you did you know and sometimes it can be

57:33

precise extremely precise uh when i’m working on history for example

57:38

and sometimes you can and even emotionally also because there’s a piece that’s called the

57:43

unknown you know as if i could paint something that is perceived as

57:50

unknown you know and i’m interested in these concepts loyalty vulnerability

57:56

because it’s kind of impossible to paint them it’s impossible but i like i start i like to start

58:02

working when what i’m trying to portray becomes impossible for me to to do

58:08

because i that it means i’m starting in a space of infinite possibilities

58:15

and that’s where i like to work because it’s closer to my existence which is something that

58:21

is forever uh becoming to quote bergson

58:27

what you got i hate titling work um i yeah i am

58:32

i i i ask mike one of my close friends who knows my work we talk a lot about it to send

58:39

me titles and they’ll always deliver something that is much better than i would have come up with i never liked

58:44

titling my songs because i felt like the first thing would be very obvious and so um yeah i i contract that out to

58:51

someone i respect tremendously and they always come up with something beautiful that’s a that’s an interesting

58:57

collaboration because um you know it’s intimate and

59:02

and that person has a particular understanding of you we’re over time yeah because they

59:09

you did the work you know what needed to be done in the work and you know what you brought in each

59:14

work and that person also know what he brought or she brought

59:19

in terms of titles for each one you know it’s like a long story yes then the relationship is wrong

59:25

it’s like a story that is one sentence you know what i’m saying i woke up and then i got dressed and then i went out

59:32

and then the sun was out and then i didn’t and then i died and goes in three paragraphs of

59:37

you know which is interesting because you know time our existence like that time is is just

59:45

one thread that can be cyclical or lineal depending on what you believe in but

59:51

that thing is just going you’re going and going and going time for one more question

1:00:01

if

1:00:06

okay we’ll answer one more question and then we’ll

1:00:13

along the okay what challenges

1:00:20

i’m going to assume in the practice or like i think it’s the same challenges

1:00:25

everyone has in life the challenges of time confidence or

1:00:31

um [Music] energy

1:00:38

yeah what challenges i think in the beginning just the unwillingness to

1:00:45

make space for someone who has ideas that like for me with my ideas

1:00:51

and with who i am as a as a person and as a black person

1:00:57

as i think the biggest challenge is early on willingness to make space

1:01:03

for you yeah for your imagination yeah for yeah uh

1:01:09

can you re can you read what what are the challenges we face you face

1:01:18

um strangely enough i was raised in a

1:01:23

family that was very liberal you know so they’ve

1:01:30

bred bread breeding the bread yeah a certain confidence

1:01:35

to in me um but then

1:01:40

um when i decided to be an artist it was challenging for them because

1:01:46

because of the uncertainty that came with it you know what i mean so then they came to me and were like

1:01:52

are you sure is that like you know but then they gave me the confidence right so i could just say whatever i’m

1:01:58

just doing whatever i’m doing you know so i don’t know if it was a challenge but it was definitely a bump in the way

1:02:04

because they were projecting their fears on me

1:02:10

and and what curtis said uh

1:02:15

for occupying the space that we occupy there’s a lot of people that

1:02:20

puts their fears and their limits limitations on what we could be

1:02:27

in the world or who we are as a matter of fact not even what the future but also the present

1:02:34

so the challenge is con continuous it’s a challenge of

1:02:39

every day seeing the fears

1:02:44

of other people that are kind of diminish you and take away your dignity

1:02:50

at the same time uh so yeah that’s a challenge that is

1:02:56

continuous for me because i’m always expending in my head you know

1:03:01

like this year i know how to ride a bike next year i want to ride a helicopter the year after i want to ride a

1:03:06

spaceship whatever you know because because it’s fun you know it’s exciting i want to

1:03:13

live an exciting life thankfully i will hopefully hopefully i will

1:03:22

thank you all for your time and thank you for your online

1:03:30

you

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