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good afternoon everyone and thank you for joining us for the second artist conversation that we are organizing to complement the

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exhibition of the recipients of the 2020 governor general’s awards in visual and media arts

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that is currently installed at the art gallery of alberta my name is catherine croston and i’m the executive director and chief curator of

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the aga i would like to begin by acknowledging that we are hosting the exhibition and this webinar from treaty six

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territory the traditional land of diverse indigenous peoples including the cree misatapi blackfoot

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nakota sioux iroquois ojibwe soto anishinabe and metis peoples

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we also acknowledge the many indigenous and inuit peoples who make alberta their home today

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this acknowledgement is just a small step along the path toward reconciliation and we acknowledge the critical work

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that we must continue to do to address the impacts of colonization

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the governor general’s award in visual and media arts is a lifetime achievement award that recognizes an artist’s career

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their body of work and contribution to the visual and media arts and fine craft in canada

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this year eight artists are being honored in recognition of their exceptional careers and remarkable contributions to the

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visual arts media arts and fine craft the 2020 winners are deanna bowen dana

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claxton ruth cut hand michael fernandez jorge lozano larsa ken lum anna tarma and zainab fergie

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this afternoon we are very pleased to welcome michael fernandez michael fernandez is a trinidad born artist who

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came to canada in the 1960s to study at the montreal museum of fine arts his works often rely on polemical

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constructs like us and them as a way to provoke self-recognition on the part of the viewer his

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installations have the sense have a sense of improvisation and liberalism which create a feeling of

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intimacy and directness as opposed to the package the streamlined and the simulated

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one can say at least metaphorically that his work is always in the first person and present tense

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and that it stands against facade and spectacle in favor of active activism at nascar where michael has

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taught since 1993 he is known for the subtlety of his pedagogical methods

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he has exhibited extensively across canada and abroad notably at the art gallery of nova scotia the national gallery of canada

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mass moca and moma ps1 michael currently lives in east over nova scotia

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tonight michael’s in conversation with roy cossey a fellow artist and former student

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born and raised in hamilton ontario roy cossey’s practice is the result of his semi-nomadic lifestyle

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having established studios in halifax hamilton vancouver lethbridge and medicine hat cossey makes

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room for the geography and history of each place he inhabits which then inform his practice as the

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child of immigrants crosses continuous relocations pay homage to the impact immigrants can have in their adopted

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culture and vice versa and are an attempt to transgress a vacuous ego driven sense of belonging

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most recently causti’s solo exhibition the king is dead cast a critical eye towards baby boomer

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culture and neoliberalism and was on display at the aga until october of 2020. he also has a

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series of drawings in a current traveling exhibition as part of the alberta foundation for the arts traveling exhibition program

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which will travel across alberta until 2023 before i turn things over to michael and

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roy just a few notes please enter any questions that you have in the chat and we’ll answer them at the

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end of the conversation i would also like to take this opportunity to thank fcor

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who support aga online programming through their heart and soul fund so please join me in welcoming michael

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fernandez and roy cossey thank you

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thanks katherine thank you all right michael

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you and me

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all right so it’s been a while since i’ve seen you it’s good to see you first of all um see how happy i am in this image

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you look ecstatic i look ecstatic this was this is a breaker for me and uh

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it functioned as an announcement you know i i sent it out saying it’s a boy in case people were wondering

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what the hell it was it’s a boy and uh interesting

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it’s it’s weird right weird image it’s an extremely strange image actually

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um i was one of the recipients of that email that you sent out that notifying that that you had a beautiful

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baby boy now um and i couldn’t i really couldn’t make sense of it i had no clue what i was looking at i

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i just but the one thing that really attracted to me that image was just how big your smile is in that you’re just

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beaming you’re so proud of this new baby boy that you have i’m happy yeah you’re happy you’re um

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but the maybe the one thing that really kind of got me actually with this is that is the

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title garment for unprecedented times and i i just

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i i would love to hear how you came up with that or why why that title was important for for

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this outfit right yeah well it’s an idea of

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serving the impossible i thought that for many times in the past

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i adhered to what was possible in terms of making work

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and i actually described a lot of the the outcomes as being possible as being

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possibilities and this when i stumbled on this

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idea i became a way aware of the notion of the impossible

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and i embraced it in a way in which age i thought because

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of my age and gender conflates

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and become in this positive gesture a bit of a

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concoction of some kind you know it’s like it’s dealing with the impracticalities and the

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impossibilities at the same time by affording it and

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presenting it in a in a confident way it gives the impression

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of uh the possible so it’s

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i was hoping on some level that there is a sense of the natural

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knowing that it’s unnatural so by me wearing the suit

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and with this gesture of smile and affordability of happiness

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gave a sense of positivity to the impossible and brought it into a world

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of the natural it was uh designed for my intention was to wear it

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at the award ceremony and i was seriously meaning to

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have a conversation with the governor general i wanted to have that happen in this outfit in exactly that

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outfit as we see it yes yes and i was hoping for the the the invitation

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to to create a serious conversation i i wish i wish that could have happened

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honestly i think that that’s that outfit and also as you mentioned too i think it is

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there is something very relevant about the stage of life that you’re in as you’re wearing that

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that garment to then have this conversation with with such a position as the governor

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general right like what a position within canadian government and i think there’s something so

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beautiful about that um it also kind of makes me think of um

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actually there is this i i don’t i forget what song it is but it’s a joni mitchell song where she mentions anima

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rising and then i was kind of looking up anima and animus and it’s this idea that

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you know at least with the animus i could be getting this wrong or mixed up here but that’s uh this kind of feminizing of

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masculinity or this and this and this masculine masculinizing of femininity i guess as

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well please correct me if i’m wrong for anybody who’s watching or listening right but but that this this seems to touch on

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to that right you’re letting go of this kind of male ego maybe let’s say or

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mail them and you’re it’s a soft it’s a very soft image i guess is what i’m trying to get across

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well it’s the science behind it right that dictates the possibility

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and playing with that um [Music] again the notion of bringing it forward

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in a way of positivity is perhaps

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attempting uh a result of the natural like i said in terms of

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the impossibility is what the work is what is impossible is what interests me

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rather than what is possible so in this work where even

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though it’s subtle in that way the garment is in two parts one

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part is is what we call a onesie which kids are more familiar with you

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know when we put our kids you know like it it it involves the feet right up to the

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neck you know and again it’s one suit yeah and um then the other part which is

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like a brief a man’s brief actually was modeled after the jewel fresh

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design for the men’s brief and i took into particular you know account that it be constructed

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along those lines but overwhelmingly large to to allow for the expansive belly

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um some of my close friends when receiving it uh who hadn’t seen me for a long time

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thought that something had happened to me what has happened to you and uh

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and they in in in after in preview uh they have told me that

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they thought i had become ill on some level and that i was presenting it with uh a smile

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oh it was like an update like a personal update actually that’s how they were thinking this yeah and that and that struck me as

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being also very interesting where you could take on

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the result of suffering or pain or ailment

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but instead of being overcome in the gesture you present the gesture of being

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fine so he looks you know the man in the outfit like i said he’s smiling

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he gives the impression that everything is okay yeah so i think those conflations

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of the opposites are something that i’ve always been uh attracted to and continue with but in

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this in this case gender as well as age

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is being expressed in the in the garment the garment being a onesie mostly

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attributed to the the infant stages and the briefs

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mostly attend to the adult so i guess there’s also this aspect of

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the conversation not actually happening with the governor general that actually leads into that ties into this impossibility as

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well right like in in effect it be it becomes an impossible conversation to have

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now i mean unless you i don’t know how you can chase the governor general down the street and catch some in this outfit

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right like yeah but that does not um change for me does not change my

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attention um i didn’t know that we would be

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stricken with the covet you know social distancing and all that

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at that point i decided to to put the the outfit on on a mannequin and the

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mannequin is in the show the current show installation but my

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intention was to wear it and after wearing it would was to

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hang it somewhere but i never intended i i never imagined that

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the meeting would not have taken place but once once i knew that that was impossible it

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was not happening um i still went with the idea that

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to put it in the show there’s an aspect or an element of bravery i guess as well

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and trying to or do you feel that that is that is relevant in this as well where where you would be willing to put

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on this outfit in such a serious format such as serious venue as

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accepting a lifetime achievement award right so is that was that part of your thinking in there

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yeah well not only in the award circumstances but maybe i could say the

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bigger picture being the times in which we are experiencing right now well that’s why i called it

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unprecedented times garment for the unprecedented

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times um i think that um it’s touchy

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in ways that we see the gen the genderization or the

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binary of this thought and i was well aware that for some

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this is a bit too um in some ways

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ill unsensitive you know insensitive so

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that appeals to me there are other works that would come would reflect the same

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feeling of the unsettling or the um

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the the vulnerable the vulnerability yes the work and the unsettling nature

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of the work and the impracticality of the work and also the uh

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the you use the word brave in some ways the the sort of embracing

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of the negative in a way that

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seems by the gesture of the embrace to be natural and keep coming back to

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that because it’s like i’m interested in when the thing doesn’t

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look prepared i’m interested when the thing

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looks easy i’m interested when it looks simple

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at the same time i’m interested when it creates complexity yeah

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and that is at the base and has always been part of my mo there’s something to that

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do you mind if i move through the slide i keep talking great um there’s something about that that i

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find um could be very unsettling for a viewer

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who has no sense of your practice let’s say just just the general layman just stepping off the lay person stepping off

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the street right into the gallery space often times most people are not expecting that from an artistic practice from

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looking at art in the space they they there’s there’s it’s almost impossible not to have these

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standardized ideas of what to expect right and so how do you

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find ways to navigate that or or is that a factor for you i guess i don’t think of that i don’t i really i don’t think of

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that i don’t think of the gallery space being sacred or being different street really

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i feel that as a matter of fact the street is more unpredictable

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obviously and the gallery can be be predictable because

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people are informed when they go to the gallery and they may not see what they

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wish or what they would like to see but at the same time they’re prepared

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when they go there on the street you could say it’s just the opposite

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because you don’t know where we are in our heads and you don’t know where we are in our mind we we could be going towards our jobs

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but we could be completely thinking of our vocation or whatever or stressed out in ways that is has

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nothing to do with them with the moment we are in experiencing in a traffic jam or anything like that

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yeah that is shown you know often when we are beside

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ourselves you know when we are not really uh taking it on taking life easily

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you know so i like the work to be uncensored but also i like the work to

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be um natural in in ways of seemingly

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very easy like no um article or no attempt

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to uh to remove it from the everyday you know like it’s

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i’m not interested in making it different really i’m interested in perhaps

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like the idea that this t-shirt says something and puts us in

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another place and i know that area i lived in vancouver for a while and i know the resonance of

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that territory so that seeing this on a person

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out east which is where it was this was taken on a farm in in in dover where i live the guy has

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goats and his history is a different thing but

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he is wearing a t-shirt that hops back to which is what all t-shirts of

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different periods and when they they are recyclable and when we find them in different uh

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you know by chance we encounter them many years past the the engagement pass the uh

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performance past the whatever the it’s attributing to and on on the front

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of the shirt you know this this location may have passed 20 years ago but someone is still connected with it

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and wears it into the now it’s and forgets about it forget at the same time it’s not even

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aware of what the t-shirt is even carrying which is kind of funny to go

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back to actually the garment from president times the idea of then that garment being something that gets

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recycled and then gets put into just everyday life and you can find it someone finds it at value village

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and who knows how it becomes repurposed and can take on a whole new life but it’s interesting how the initial

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gesture i guess is so um considered and and really

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on some level labored upon to get it right and then eventually it can just it can kind of

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become assimilated into everyday life and be used in whatever way people want similar to this t-shirt i guess

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as you can say right yeah i mean like it does have a different life and you’re showing a

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different life too and you’re not dismissing the history

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either because it’s yeah you know it’s it’s present in its display because it’s built into that garment like with

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the text on that shirt you know it is text you can read it but with your garmin again that’s and

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speaking kind of coming to this this image too the condom cucumber there’s there’s again something

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about late stage in life uh reading and like that uh has a strong

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influence on this image right there’s something very childhood

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childish about this image but it really makes sense coming from

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the the the age that you are now the white hair the the frailty let’s say right there’s

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quite beautiful and feminized about this image to agree well i think also the the idea of the

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kitchen the idea the connection with food and uh maybe this age my age at this time

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maybe there is more or less uh an interest in food can be

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i’ve noticed that in myself i go through stages where i’m more interested or less interested

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it rises and falls and uh using food

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to replicate something or to touch or to evoke that

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is not becomes food playing with food you know at the same time

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massaging uh massaging notions of something you know notions of

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something notions of how we see

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[Music] and sense of uh

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the phallic and all that so but if you put a condom on a cucumber

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which this is i mean what are you saying about food you know what i mean

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is food that violent is that is food that uh is is is food that

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uh hearsay is food that um necessary

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is food that

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at the core of who we are like somebody was horny that’s why we are

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here somebody got horny and here we are

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all of us yep yeah and directors so yeah and then and it’s a crude

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but it’s also it’s it’s a reality

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you know there’s and there’s there’s something about kind of coming back to this serving the impossible because it would

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be absolutely impossible to impregnate anything with a condom on a cucumber do you know

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what i mean like there’s just utterly impossible but there’s also this kind of like

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futility this aspect of futility of of like maybe the way a little boy or a child

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stares at a pregnant belly and with fascination it’s almost the opposite here right like it’s it’s it’s

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not lamenting it’s playing also right we are perishable

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we are vegetable we are food the food we eat

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we become you know so there is this circle or cycling of

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potency and impotency and also the sense of

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what you eat how you eat how you become what you become so there’s a great

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uh doing of you know like i said somebody was horny and that’s here we are um

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you know it makes us uh in some ways veril but at the same time like

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we are we have a shelf life too yeah and and that shelf life is is being

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considered in terms of cooking and in terms of what we do

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and what we continue to do as individuals as we move forward as we live

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so do you think there’s a need to remind people of that like is there is is that

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why this gesture this photograph exists let’s say not the gesture of the photo i’m not thinking so much about

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others in terms of i’m not preaching or i’m not teaching

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i i don’t see it quite like that i see it more as discovering or

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exploring areas of myself or of my own

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thinking about something or experiencing of something so these these works are in the first

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person catherine had mentioned earlier on and

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they’re more akin to i feel on some level if i experience something

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i know that there got to who be also experienced this we may not

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experience it in the same way but i don’t think of my audience really i don’t

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i i think more of uh people have told me about the art that you know have

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included themselves as the audience and then at that point you get a sense of yeah or may you know

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like this bothers me or it doesn’t but this is so rare that it’s not even

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i dismiss it i don’t like it oh i feel that it’s not sensitive you know

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but i find within it i am citing my attempt is to cite that area where

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the vulnerability exists and there’s a normalcy

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yeah there’s a normalcy i’m not putting something down i’m not putting something up but i’m i’m making

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that that space where there’s a lot of slippage and a lot of sense of uh

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maybe perhaps the possibility that sounds like a very tenuous balance

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let’s say because it it’s it seems that there’s a process of setting your own ego aside

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to to not just try to create your own mandate let’s say or to

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push an agenda forward but really to to be able to put something into the

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world that is not neutral but but it’s neutral enough for people to anybody to be able to

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approach it and have a reaction to and and not feel like they’re being pushed in some way

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right so is there a um has that is that is that something

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that just comes naturally within your practice or is that something that you’ve considered and worked on um

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in the sense of a practice right well it’s something that i’m working on i would say it’s not over and it’s not

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complete and probably it never would be um nothing is ever completed i thought

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and as we go on you know we carry with us

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whatever that has made us so we are we are gathering we are

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gatherers as we get older we’re gathering more you know and we’re also losing so

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in that area of losing and gaining i find there is

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a beginning of understanding of something that i find

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it’s not infinite but it’s it’s it it is uh it’s it’s a curiosity

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that is born with a freshness because it’s new you you you were never

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in this situation before you were never experienced it you heard about it what it is to be

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getting old and what it would could be like what it and yet at the same time

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in experiencing it you you tend to dismiss the idea of getting old in a way

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that maybe intimidates you or if you could

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say from the other point of view where like for example the expression is i’m too old for that

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oh listen man i don’t need to i am all somebody had told me this once many

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years ago listen i i said aren’t you concerned about

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no i’m old man so i’m allowed or at this age

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yeah i don’t care you know what others think and that’s freedom yeah

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that’s realizing a freedom and i think when when we think of putting things

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together in that notion of surprise or

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a sense of discovery at the core it expresses

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it’s like a breakout you know it’s a break away it it it it busts it breaks it

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it pops and and that becomes uh an expression of one

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you know it’s like so instead of it being a frame whatever it is

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it it’s splices in so many different ways or it

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goes you know it’s like somebody told me about this image

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that they thought that i was mimicking uh someone from afghanistan

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oh okay and i said well that’s interesting that you said that but i didn’t even

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have that territory in my mind that geography that yes i wasn’t even

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thinking that what was i thinking i was thinking of an expression of like starkness you know like what the hell

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at the same time with the humor yeah so i thought more towards

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uh inspector clue so in in look-alikeness yeah

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and i’ve used myself in many instances where i felt like those characters or different

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characters like mr gadget sometimes and i like those seemingly

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you know like the wearing of or trying on of a loss a loss or

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a sense of other and it’s a very simple gesture

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but you still can’t be that you still can’t be that and knowing that

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for whatever moment the camera could capture it is that yeah my point of view

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that’s interesting that’s interesting yeah there’s kind of a funny thing as well about you

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putting on this costume to be an other to be this pluso character

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and while you’re being an other someone else further others you in a sense by then

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calling you out as being from afghanistan and there’s kind of a nice little kind of

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not feedback loop but just like this downward spiral of it just can go on infinitely of you just get

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other to other to other then it gets further and further away from the point i

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um i thought that actually that’s maybe how this project had started someone had just assumed you were from

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afghanistan and so then you put on this this outfit this costume but

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no it was all the way around the other way around the image made that connection see

33:55

there’s something interesting in this room i’m hearing i don’t can you hear some popping sounds

34:01

yeah yeah okay the popping sounds are coming from a fireplace behind me

34:07

yeah okay now this fireplace you can’t see it it’s not in the image but

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it’s um i describe it you you’re familiar with them it’s a fake fireplace and it has a sound

34:22

element that provides the crackling the crackling right that’s what you’re

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hearing now it’s electrical it’s a plug-in

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situation and every now and then the furnace the real source of heat

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comes in and provides us with what the support function of the

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replica is i find that you know it’s so simple but

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it’s so disorienting that we have accepted it without even noting it you know yeah

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we’re not even checking it and it’s it’s beautiful and maybe

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there is no such thing as being um

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the the specific or the

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like what is the ideal you know we may think of it but what is it really

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this could be ideal yeah yeah and yet it on on one if you take it apart it’s

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it’s flawed it’s so heavily flawed but then is it flawed as we

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enjoy it and include it in our surroundings and in

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our life i think we are gesturing of its uniqueness and uh there’s something

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brave about that and very um subtle in terms of uh

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how we we comprehend you know like how we could comprehend

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what is legitimate and what isn’t yes it’s like the camouflage on a predator or

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it’s like the like a the nice smiling face of capitalism to a degree as well like

36:27

you know that that’s there’s more to it behind the scene what is the function of this thing ultimately

36:33

so it’s the entryway or it’s the beautiful flower that attracts the bee let’s say as well right

36:38

but yet there’s a complete futility within since there’s actually no heat coming from the fireplace um i wanted to

36:46

plus you wanted to play a video so i want to just kind of get that playing just for the amount of time we have sure um

36:52

when i hit play the sound will kind of be loud for a second but i’ll quickly turn the volume down and i can

36:57

keep talking over that yeah all right just one second

37:07

so can you do you want the sound fully off or no no i i can’t see it though i could hear

37:13

it but i couldn’t see it here we go if there were any doubt that steph curry is the greatest shooter

37:19

ever what you’re about to see will end that doubt after warriors practice saturday curry decided to get some extra three pointers

37:26

up and he just kept making it and making them there we go so making them he hit maybe we’ll

37:33

hear the intro 105 someone from the warriors started recording after the first two

37:39

so there are 103 of them on video his shooting streak lasted for five minutes so we’re just gonna let it run

37:45

picture and picture while we continue the show so you can see them all trae young 37 points of the hawks season opener

37:52

john moran had 44 in the grizzly season opener then they met saturday in memphis so

37:57

let’s see what happened um what is it about this video that you wanted to talk about because there is

38:03

something that is remaining in the house we know so much for the threat

38:16

for the game

38:37

give another look at that one young making it really easy consecutive three 25 assists in the third quarter

38:42

hawks down one hand

38:56

the fact that you know that

39:04

apply these notions of the impossible true fabrication

39:10

and the hawks apparently here 122.

39:26

uh

39:40

is

39:56

[Music]

40:09

is saying it was done like 50 so there’s videos yeah so you could take it down magic

40:15

taking on russell westbrook of the wizards triple double in his first game for washington and he was at it again

40:22

i like i like very much the um the realm in where that

40:30

sense of sense of doubt and the sense of the possibility exists you know where we

40:38

we become uh uh super you know

40:44

it’s like the superhuman you know in terms of accomplishing in this case an athlete

40:52

at the finest level showing something that is uh

40:59

not the everyday in the sport there’s something also about like there

41:06

there’s a nice aspect to this video too because it all comes down to practice as well

41:12

right so there’s the only way you can hit that repetition is by constant constant practice

41:17

and yeah there’s something beautiful that can relate to an artistic practice i think as well but what what is practice within an

41:24

artistic practice like what is a junk shot that’s to our practice right that’s interesting for me that’s a word

41:31

that i don’t use yeah the idea of practice does not appeal to me because it comes

41:39

with a notion of a trial a sense of rehearsal

41:45

a sense of an agenda really and i feel

41:51

i i lean more to the spontaneity to improvise and to the happening

41:58

of something so yet when i use that as an example of something i’m quite aware

42:04

that as you said it may have taken practice i think

42:11

to get to a point to be able to to do what i do the way i do

42:20

it may not seem like practice yeah you know what i mean but i

42:26

commitment i think there is work going on there to accept that for me i’m not talking

42:33

about another i’m talking about for me to to move my interests

42:40

can only be because i have done a certain preparation yeah so

42:47

yet when when it says when we use the word my practice i this

42:54

the notion that i am uh rehearsing or i’m looking at something if the thing

43:01

becomes uh much like work or feels like

43:06

work i’m not interested yeah and so but that’s and there there’s

43:14

something i guess maybe then you think about the lifespan of an athlete it’s quite short

43:19

right it’s all within their youth by the time they’re like 35 they’re almost aged out and so but for an artist i mean it’s a

43:26

it’s like as uh as we’ve been looking at your images the very first one of the garments from

43:31

precedence at times there’s a commitment that goes that extends beyond

43:37

the the basic work life that we understand and in in context or in

43:44

yeah in juxtaposition to the athlete’s career the artist has all this like this

43:50

longevity to to build this understanding or this commitment within themselves is is that

43:57

something that you’re is that that makes that’s here i i play the sport table tennis i love table tennis

44:05

and right now i could safely say

44:10

i’m at my best than i’ve ever been and i feel and

44:18

other people have told me all the people i play with constantly i’m getting even better

44:25

yeah yet as i get older you would think it’s the other way around like you were saying with the athlete

44:31

now for me i have played with champs in the sport and they tell me this i

44:40

know number three in the world uh in in canada yeah and it’s a woman in this case

44:47

she just told me that i enjoy the sport more than she does

44:54

because she is under a lot of stress and pressure being number three in canada she’s

45:00

aiming for number one and she’s watching me play she would not play me she’s given me some pointers

45:07

i do everything wrong in her eyes but i seem to have fun and i’ve come

45:13

very far he said you play a very good game so when it comes to

45:18

to wanting to play with her to learn more she tells me i would just throw her off her game

45:25

because the person she’s practicing for is not my style no so they keep

45:30

themselves geared to the next to the to the competition and that makes for the sport where

45:39

it’s no fun then i feel i’m missing something if my work

45:45

is not fun it’s like that i’m also missing something if i’m being stressed out to

45:51

the degree it’s not i am recreational so do you think that’s professional i am

45:58

not professional yeah i’m not seeking professionalism in that way so then how can you

46:06

or is there a way to relay that into let’s say an art art practice for

46:13

or an art career let’s say for younger people like maybe people just heading out of their bfas you know

46:19

because once you’re out of your bfa there’s all this pressure to go into an mfa and professionalize and keep this like competition almost going

46:26

otherwise why are these all these credentials right so is there a way for to relay that yeah but i don’t see that

46:32

as competition though i see that as as as availability you know

46:37

in terms of uh if someone wants a job if someone wants to teach

46:44

you know just having your your under degree you know it’s not gonna

46:51

it’s not gonna cut it in some cases you know like really they’re hiring at this at the

46:57

level of phds now in art really in the in the universities

47:02

they’re looking at the the artists with the phds for the job

47:09

and and you know and you think about it the thing that i always felt about art

47:14

and i still do to this stage is that it’s the one thing i could think of

47:22

that you don’t have to have a license for you don’t have to have a certificate for to be an artist

47:27

you don’t have to pass a test to be an artist but we made it as though you have to

47:33

and if you a young person today graduated with a with a bachelor’s

47:40

you know i’m sure you you there are people who would employ you if you know they used to be in my days they

47:47

had this terminology it was called equivalence so you didn’t

47:52

have your masters or you didn’t have you even in my days in the 50s when i went to school you

47:59

know late 50s you know there was no such thing as an art college

48:05

per se you know there was no if there was it was a a kind of um it was

48:12

non-degree you know and uh people went back who came out of that

48:19

education and went back and got their degrees to get work to to become teachers right but

48:27

there was always an attention to your to your histories or to your

48:33

your record of work you’re functioning as an artist so they’d look at your shoes your

48:40

exhibition your activity became the equivalence to your

48:45

employment without the papers so do you think that there’s a way to

48:50

navigate around all that i don’t see it yeah i think

48:56

that’s my that’s how i come to where i am yeah i don’t have a a a bfa

49:03

i never went to a uh accredited school i never did yeah you know

49:10

i stopped going to school in 1963.

49:16

you know i didn’t even finish the four-year program but yeah you know do i fault myself on

49:22

any way i was very lucky yeah but i had the equivalency

49:28

i was very active from day one even as a student a second year student

49:33

i was in the montreal painting show my people were selected to be with the with the

49:40

painters professional painters at the time all on harry gagnon gautier i was in that company

49:46

with my painting and being a student so it was like they were my teachers yeah and i had a sense of

49:55

something that was beyond what the school was also you know and it’s not

50:03

it’s just i could say luck or something i didn’t know what i was doing yeah but i did have a taste for

50:11

something i i know when i was um so i did do a master’s program

50:17

and uh it was a program that was closely connected with the undergrad program that was also at that university and um

50:25

and something i noticed was this this pressure that the that the undergrads felt to immediately

50:31

jump into an mfa they just had to just apply immediately and get into that and not take any time to let’s say go

50:37

back into the streets like get out of the institution get out of that kind of mindset and

50:43

uh there’s a beautiful thing to that era of what you’re discussing that just seems impossible now and

50:50

is there any way to let’s say well if if you you know if i was on a

50:57

selection committee and this person came forward with work

51:04

that had nothing to do with an institution of any kind this person was self-taught let’s put it like that

51:10

i i personally felt moved by the word that the work was good that’s my vote

51:17

i don’t care what that was not attached if i was i was in the position of hiring

51:23

and i saw this energy that stood out got my vote got my backing but that’s not the uh

51:31

that’s not the status quo i don’t think many people like when you teach somebody how to

51:37

apply for a canada council grant you know and you have a formula how to write

51:46

how to look i think it’s a problem there you’re you’re citing something that has nothing

51:52

to do with uh anybody being unique about something

51:59

you know what i mean yeah you’re looking for a fit yeah that i’m i’m never enchanted with and uh

52:05

that never seemed to appeal never did even when i was in art school

52:11

never appealed to me which kind of goes back to this sense of bravery that we’re talking about or that i brought up at the

52:16

beginning i think very early you know the notion i saw the sense of the idea of freedom

52:24

i experienced that that you could i you can do anything right yeah you could do

52:29

anything well why why aren’t you not doing anything and then you you check in and you

52:35

realize well why why am i not doing anything

52:41

it’s a good question yes you will find the reasons why you’re not

52:47

so like i’m at a point where there are no excuses there’s no excuses yeah yeah yeah no

52:54

excuse this this is an interesting image this this this is a very simple situation but

53:00

i i planted those flowers yeah i didn’t plant the rock

53:06

that’s a raw a big bra yeah and this rock is more alive

53:13

right it’s it’s covered totally with this lichen the deer likes eats this

53:19

the deer come and they eat it so hot it so happens that this rock is

53:24

maybe they don’t come to this rough this is spared but i would water the rock and by

53:32

watering the rock i never watered the plants these these are annuals

53:38

yeah but these are the rock is perennial comes up every it it it dormants it’s sleeping now

53:46

right and so i call it guru and there’s something about the music

53:54

too that i’m thinking about yeah you know the role the rock as well and yet

54:03

it’s very you know it’s growing but yet my

54:10

my attention to it is is less in the way of being present or alive

54:17

and more as being deaf you know it’s solid it’s blunt it’s heavy it’s tough

54:25

right but at the same time with this life from the inside to the outside

54:33

rocks are alive 100 i would agree with that

54:40

so you know i mean i’m interested in in you know the cup pouring

54:48

into another vest one vessel into the other one becoming the other in the other as

54:54

well you know well i i think about this image actually as like um almost like a like a tombstone in a

55:00

sense right like there’s this kind of very funerary kind of sense to but it’s still living

55:06

at the same time so it kind of goes back to this kind of process of regeneration that you’re with the condom cucumber image of

55:12

you know we’re all perishable in the end yet this rock keeps living but at the same time like soil itself is

55:19

created from these rocks and so so we are too generated from the soil

55:24

and so there’s this kind of control back to the soil from the soil back to the soil

55:35

this one this one it’s an image i took and i

55:42

that was a conversation conversation was about this particular is the begonia this is

55:50

about a plant and this is is specified now this i mean this one

55:59

i just saw it i caught it i thought wow this is when you have a moment where the action and

56:07

the demonstration is together right yeah the image it’s like

56:13

it is what it is it’s like there’s no way

56:19

i like that no no there’s also this yes yeah yeah that’s a power that’s a power

56:25

in in in the literal yes yeah that it that i find is easily dismissed

56:32

so i’m not interested in photography but i’m interested in authenticity

56:40

yeah you know this one yeah yeah yeah the one filtered gesture yeah

56:47

and you know you don’t hear it you see it yeah and what you don’t see

56:55

you can hear you know it’s very interesting how the the language becomes

57:03

access accessible in in ways that we don’t even

57:11

understand like it’s quiet but it’s not there’s a lot going on there’s noise out

57:18

there like i mean imagine if it was not the begonias or the flowers out there but something else

57:24

in this in place of those that that kind of gesture of pointing can it would it would completely alter

57:31

the reading right depending on what the object was that she was pointing to yet there’s still this assuredness of of

57:37

that this this immediacy right this connection that’s being made yeah well i think the gesture is so

57:47

it’s too pointed you know it’s so boom and the thing the bouquet or the the burst you know

57:53

the red are so like the same way boom so you have these two

57:58

uh vibrating places of a person giving power you know

58:06

it’s like you know it’s like that thing within the sistine chapel you know you know you see the

58:12

michelangelo with the the adam and the god yeah you

58:17

know receiving and it’s a bit of that this this is uh is is

58:25

what’s going on you know this is this these are like markers sometimes yeah yeah but i find that

58:32

they’re like situating me in in contemporary uh media or

58:40

yeah happening and then outside like with the cucumber this one

58:47

the grow rock is is like a move

58:55

on the side it’s like a side glance these are markers now

59:03

they’re familiar they have a feminine people see them they know what they’re seeing because we’ve seen it so many times if

59:09

we if we look at the news we’re all seeing the same news we’re

59:15

also also reading everything it’s the same you know we’re being piped right we

59:22

could get it from different media but they’re all talking about the same in different ways probably but that

59:29

exists but are they talking about the guru maybe not are they talking about so then

59:35

you think oh i do i think um this is mundane in comparison this is so

59:43

mundane the grow rock is so mundane but if when i think about it this is big

59:49

this is huge for me yeah alongside that or even have something to

59:55

do with that where we have come you know so there’s a nice coexistence on different

1:00:02

levels one is totally uh you could say uh brought to the

1:00:10

the masses the other one is private very personal so the personal with the

1:00:17

private becomes a kind of a mirror

1:00:24

you know there’s a nice conflation there as well because i i followed the news yeah

1:00:30

i think that’s a good kind of to then to go to this image that we’re looking at now that kind of holding

1:00:36

like as a as media as as holding up a mirror to the natural world and always kind of

1:00:42

making that point and gesture of like singling things out to talk about but then you know we do have these

1:00:49

massive events such as like what happened in washington dc and uh maybe and so this image is

1:00:56

from um what happened on what was it on friday i believe or

1:01:03

wednesday i guess but um so can like is there does that gesture

1:01:10

still exist when it’s when it’s um mitigated through these other channels

1:01:16

through media when it’s separated away from the event like you’re not seeing the rock or you’re not

1:01:21

with that woman and capturing her pointing now we’re looking we’re listening to someone else who’s now pointing that finger

1:01:28

and and trying to understand through that lens now right that filter

1:01:33

yeah but this this popular culture

1:01:39

so it goes in some ways it goes back to if you think um

1:01:45

you make something different in the gallery because you expect it to

1:01:52

because you you are aware that someone who comes is prepared if you

1:01:59

if you think of it just happening so this whether it’s on the street level whether

1:02:06

it’s on the television whether it’s in the gallery it will have the same

1:02:12

in some ways what what we know it will you know we could dismiss it in

1:02:18

the gallery saying i have seen yeah give me something else or it’s a reminder or history

1:02:27

it has a place it has a place but i think in terms of his longevity

1:02:34

it’s in the arena of um it’s not in commonplace it becomes in

1:02:42

the arena of history in the arena of um

1:02:49

a milestone you could say someone is will has never been the same since that

1:02:55

image or that what what is taking place there change us

1:03:00

what is taking place there meant something in a big way you know it this is an

1:03:07

event that is life-changing that resonated around the world

1:03:14

my little world does not resonate around the world i know that i don’t expect it to

1:03:24

i don’t have any i don’t fool myself i’m not changing anything

1:03:31

yeah yeah yeah yeah you know yeah any change that come and could come would be from my actions

1:03:42

i consider what i do part of my actions you know it’s part of my head my hands these are the extensions of

1:03:50

this the hands things that you make so on some level we

1:03:58

i feel a strength in community i feel a strength in

1:04:03

humanity as a whole yeah like we’ll get beyond this too

1:04:09

you know even though this has a replay to it in many different ways

1:04:16

we get beyond it yeah the gro rock is also a signal for me

1:04:24

of beyond it yeah it’s like it exists at the same it could have been the same day

1:04:30

it could have been the same day that took my attention like this also took my attention but i think that

1:04:36

attention there knowing this existing gives this more power for me yeah you know

1:04:44

so it’s it tells me that on an individual level on a personal

1:04:51

level it’s public as well it’s in this private domain

1:04:57

there is a sense of the big the whole there’s something subtle

1:05:03

there’s something infinite but there’s also there’s life here as well

1:05:08

and when you point that when the person does this you are in in negation you know like

1:05:13

sometimes when we are only this is major this is major we miss the minor

1:05:19

right but it’s a combination of all all these things there’s something beautiful too in

1:05:25

context of the image that’s up now of what you were saying with these kind of personal gestures within your own

1:05:31

little sphere as well as this kind of balance thing kind of uh effect or

1:05:36

balancing elements um and i it seems that there is it’s growing harder and harder

1:05:45

to it’s more difficult now to keep those gestures as personal and not try to

1:05:53

have them sent out into this world and try to have some impact let’s say but but there is still a beautiful

1:06:00

sentiment to this kind of community improvement i guess ultimately

1:06:05

right like this community betterment this like sets place within a grounding right it is

1:06:11

necessary it is necessary it is uh just as

1:06:18

needed you know if you think about it as being both uh

1:06:30

collectively a throw forward it is progress it is uh it’s good that this happens

1:06:39

it’s good that this happens because this makes us better it makes us better it’s better that

1:06:47

it happened than it did because now that it happened we have an opportunity to better you

1:06:54

know yeah and it goes like that in ways you know it’s i’m not saying or putting down the people who have been

1:07:01

hurt or stuff like that that is yeah major well even if on the level

1:07:07

that’s uh by the fact of this actually now existing i was part of a

1:07:13

history let’s say actually actually happening there is no denying it anymore there it’s it’s plain as day and so therefore

1:07:19

you can now address it and then begin to build and move on from that too right like to improve based off of this giant kind of

1:07:27

happening mistake however you want to term it so and it just doesn’t come from nowhere

1:07:33

it comes from something that we have been harboring right obviously it’s it took a long time to

1:07:40

get here at that time we need to look at too we need to look at all the things that

1:07:47

help us understand this or even bring us to this what brought us here

1:07:54

you know yeah it’s interesting that a lot of people are saying if this was a black lives matter

1:08:02

crowd with a different result different result yeah there will probably be a lot

1:08:08

more dead people that’s interesting you know a color changes

1:08:14

the outcome too michael and roy i’m gonna have to interrupt you at this

1:08:20

moment i think um we have gone uh for an hour and ten

1:08:25

minutes and there are no questions in the chat room uh so there are no people um with

1:08:32

questions and i’m happy to have you continue talking if that’s what you want to do i just wanted to let you

1:08:38

know where we were in our in our scheduling here leave it to michael what do you what do

1:08:44

you feel well that’s it

1:08:50

i i interviewed i’m sorry um no what are you sorry about this is it

1:08:57

because i was enjoying it and i was just conscious of the time yeah i know it was wonderful and i’m

1:09:03

it’s so fascinating to end up i think uh where we did with the events

1:09:08

of the last uh week or so um continue like you know majorly challenging events

1:09:15

but i do like the perspective that without that how do we move forward how do we recognize

1:09:20

and how do we move forward so thank you very much for that um anyway i just did want to

1:09:27

uh close today’s webinar by thanking michael fernandez not just for your talk

1:09:33

today but for uh your contributions to art in canada over the last many decades so thank you very much

1:09:39

michael we’re honored to have your work at the ega so and also to roy um i know you’ve left

1:09:45

alberta and are in hamilton at the moment but we’ll come back any time they’re happy to have you and it’s been a pleasure working with you as well on

1:09:52

this project and also on your exhibition that was here in the fall so uh thank you oh there’s a

1:09:57

note here from zainab vergie another um award recipient from this year’s governor general’s just congratulating

1:10:04

uh michael and if there’s a lovely comment in the chat michael if you want

1:10:09

to read it um just from thanking you for uh the work that is thoughtful

1:10:16

meditative reflective um and the idea of work being invoked work also expresses the desire is clear that

1:10:24

the relation between work and daily activity has become more intimate it relates more closely to the idea of

1:10:29

techne and play rather as against the notion of work labor and jobs and i would like to say that uh david

1:10:36

harper has commented that you both have very nice hair so wow

1:10:43

david easy

1:10:49

is it cute [Laughter] there you go so anyway thank you thanks

1:10:56

so much for having me thank you so much thanks roy thanks helen

1:11:03

great thank you catherine it’s been a great event yeah thank you so much and um please

1:11:10

join us next monday at 6 00 p.m mountain time we will be hosting our third artist conversation with dana

1:11:17

claxton so thank you thank you very much okay everybody have a safe and wonderful

1:11:22

evening please hi michael evan thank you hi michael roy thank you

1:11:31

bye

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