0:08

um

0:08

so i’d like to begin uh with

0:12

uh ron i i kind of i read an article

0:15

that talked about

0:16

the fact that you grew up in an adobe

0:18

house built by your great grandfather

0:21

in the san louis valley of colorado

0:24

and i also know that there’s this early

0:26

resource

0:27

called earthenarchitecture.org i believe

0:30

that was founded by you

0:32

maybe in 20 2003 so 17 years ago

0:36

um so there’s this deep uh you know

0:39

knowledge about

0:40

uh earth as a material and i’m wondering

0:43

what what are the routes for you where

0:45

does this come from this

0:46

this quest for earth as material

0:52

well in my own personal history it comes

0:54

from

0:56

having lived in buildings made of earth

0:58

and

0:59

not only uh in my lifetime but

1:04

my family has lived in buildings made of

1:06

earth for

1:08

uh perhaps time immemorial whether you

1:11

trace my

1:12

european lineage to southern spain

1:15

or you trace my indigenous ancestry here

1:19

in the pueblos of new mexico

1:21

and so i have that very deep connection

1:24

to earth but i also think that all

1:27

humans have that deep connection to

1:29

living in buildings made of earth and

1:31

they may have been disconnected from it

1:33

in their

1:33

in their recent histories in their

1:36

recent family histories

1:37

but for 10 000 years humans have lived

1:42

primarily in buildings constructed of

1:44

earth in every continent

1:45

on on the planet except for one of

1:47

course which is too cold

1:49

but but i think that we all as humans

1:54

not only have this this deep

1:57

historical connection to earth but i

1:59

think we also have

2:00

a biological connection to earth in that

2:03

we

2:04

like some other animals on the planet

2:06

have evolved

2:07

to make those buildings made of earth so

2:09

which means that our own

2:10

physical makeup has allowed us to

2:13

construct those kinds of buildings that

2:15

way we have the building to

2:16

grasp mud and to shape mud and ceramics

2:18

have been some of the

2:20

earliest technologies that we as humans

2:22

have developed and so

2:24

i think that our connection goes beyond

2:26

just

2:27

a connection of memory but it goes to

2:29

connection of biology

2:31

connection of genetics a connection of

2:35

geology right so it’s in our dna

2:38

i believe so in many ways i mean we look

2:41

at

2:42

what creates the the fundamental

2:44

proteins

2:45

for the creation of life it comes from

2:49

molecules that are associated with clay

2:52

interesting we think we think sometimes

2:56

about that as a

2:56

as a kind of biblical story right that

2:58

people come from dust to dust or

3:01

but it’s also a it’s

3:04

a scientific truth that that you can

3:08

create the foundations of life

3:11

by combining certain molecules of clay

3:14

the fundamental

3:15

proteins and amino acids

3:18

yeah i think one of the things that

3:20

really interests me about the

3:21

architecture that the two of you do

3:23

in your practice together is um

3:26

an exploration of materials that are not

3:29

necessarily

3:30

typical for structures salt sugar

3:36

coffee grounds earth maybe being one of

3:39

those or dirt

3:40

but i want to kind of move to emerging

3:43

objects for just a moment

3:44

and um i believe there was

3:48

a smithsonian article that came out that

3:51

talked about the 40 things that you need

3:53

to know in the next 40 years

3:55

and one of those things was the quote

3:57

that

3:58

sophisticated buildings would be made of

4:00

mud and so i

4:01

wonder if we could start from that place

4:04

what sparked your interest

4:06

in that comment and what did that um

4:09

prompt in terms of emerging objects well

4:12

interestingly

4:14

one of the first materials that we

4:16

tested in our binder jet 3d printer was

4:19

clay it was a ball clay if we go

4:22

back to i think 2010 and

4:25

we were experimenting with recipes for

4:28

printing with clay that were open source

4:31

that we had found online and we tested

4:33

ball clays and porcelains

4:37

and then we were invited to participate

4:39

in the bnla of the americas which was in

4:42

denver

4:43

and we decided to 3d print with sand

4:46

so in order to do that we had to hack

4:49

our printer

4:51

and experiment with different sand

4:53

formulations we

4:54

experimented with um eventually adding

4:58

a cement to the matrix that we were

5:00

printing with

5:01

and as we were printing for that exhibit

5:04

we were printing objects that fill

5:08

fit in the build bed of the printer

5:10

which is eight inches by eight inches by

5:12

ten inches

5:13

we were laying them out and we realized

5:15

oh everything’s the same size so we

5:18

started printing

5:19

parts that we could aggregate together

5:21

to make a hole

5:22

so suddenly we we realized oh we can

5:25

stack parts and make something tall

5:27

or something long and then we started

5:29

stacking in both directions and realized

5:31

oh we don’t have to just make models we

5:34

can actually make

5:35

buildings through this technology we can

5:38

make

5:39

building blocks of the future and we can

5:41

make them out of sand

5:43

we can make them out of cement we could

5:45

make them out of

5:47

clay chardonnay etc so that’s

5:50

a little bit of the the origin story for

5:53

us

5:54

and i think when we read that quote we

5:57

realized that we were

5:59

kind of on the cusp of thinking about

6:01

how we might build

6:02

for the future using this nascent

6:05

technology

6:06

with these really old traditional

6:08

materials

6:09

that have proven themselves over time

6:12

you know

6:12

the um earthen construction has

6:16

this flywheel effect of keeping

6:18

buildings

6:19

warm in the interior in the winter and

6:21

cool in the summer in arid environments

6:24

and we can capitalize on just the

6:27

inherent

6:27

quality of the material itself

6:31

one thing about that smithsonian article

6:33

that predicted the

6:36

sophisticated buildings of the future

6:37

will be made of earth is that

6:39

uh i always found it interesting that i

6:41

thought that sophisticated buildings of

6:43

the last ten thousand years

6:44

were also constructed and that that

6:48

inherent to earth is construction is a

6:50

sophistication

6:52

and we as humankind have been developing

6:55

that material

6:57

for uh thousands of years and so it’s

7:00

the material that we’ve been working on

7:01

the

7:02

longest it’s fundamentally the most

7:04

sophisticated

7:05

material that we have under our control

7:09

let’s build the environment and so

7:11

because we’ve had such a long time with

7:13

this material what does that allow us to

7:15

do how do we understand it better

7:17

because we’ve been

7:18

working with it or do we maybe we left

7:21

it behind for some time

7:24

well you know i think increasingly we’re

7:26

leaving it

7:27

behind and and it’s unfortunate

7:30

so fewer and fewer people around the

7:33

world are living in buildings made of

7:35

earth because they’re moving

7:36

towards other building materials that

7:39

are extremely resource

7:40

intensive concrete for example

7:43

and i think what what we have not been

7:46

able to do

7:47

with earth is to bring it into

7:50

a capitalistic economy so no one can

7:53

really make money

7:55

building buildings made out of earth but

7:57

certainly building buildings made out of

7:59

concrete or steel those

8:02

are are materials that have a

8:04

capitalistic power

8:06

and earth does not and so it it’s almost

8:09

like the material has resisted itself

8:11

bringing itself into the economy and so

8:14

i think

8:15

given the global crises that we are in

8:19

it’s an opportunity for us to look back

8:21

at the sophisticated technology that we

8:23

have developed

8:24

and begin to use it in our capacity to

8:27

create

8:27

elegant buildings to great housing for

8:29

those who need housing

8:32

there are examples of almost every

8:34

architectural typology man of earth

8:35

around the world there are airports made

8:37

out of earth in yemen for example

8:39

there are museums embassies and so

8:42

i think it’s a building material that we

8:44

should not forget

8:47

and i know you authored a book about

8:48

earth architecture

8:50

in 2008 or 2009 so we’ll include a link

8:53

to that as well so you’ve done a lot of

8:55

studies around

8:56

what’s been built with earth right

9:00

we both have a really nice opportunity

9:02

to travel around the world and look at

9:03

buildings constructive earth

9:05

and the diversity of earth and

9:08

construction around the world and the

9:10

many different kinds of techniques

9:12

that are available to use only

9:14

fundamentally earth and humidity

9:18

may be sometimes mixed with some organic

9:20

material

9:21

to make to make shelter

9:25

so i think in looking at the

9:29

structures that you’ve built using a 3d

9:31

printer

9:32

you describe this printer as old

9:34

technology but in the photograph it

9:36

looks almost robotic

9:37

there’s this long arm that is filling

9:40

earth

9:41

into into sections or into structures

9:43

and i wonder if you could talk about

9:46

what the use of new technology does you

9:49

started to comment about how it might

9:50

change

9:51

economy or the access to building

9:54

with earth but um what is this merging

9:58

of new technology

9:59

with the old material what does it allow

10:02

in your in your views well we we are

10:05

using a

10:06

robotic arm to 3d print with the

10:09

earth and i think um it does a couple of

10:13

things

10:13

it allows us to build more quickly

10:16

than we might be able to by hand

10:20

right so we can design something in the

10:23

computer

10:24

and then the robot is able to well we

10:26

have a continuous hopper

10:28

that pumps the earth up to the robot and

10:31

the robot

10:32

puts it in place so we can make complex

10:35

structures

10:36

um we can work more quickly

10:39

um i think you know for someone like me

10:42

i might not be able to lift a 40 or a 50

10:45

pound adobe

10:46

over my head and stack it but the robot

10:49

can can build higher than i am tall

10:52

right

10:52

so i think the limitations that

10:55

might traditionally be there are negated

10:59

by using the robotic arm i mean

11:02

what’s what we’re discovering which is

11:04

really interesting and it was our theory

11:06

that’s

11:07

that’s proving to be true is that

11:10

we could create a printer that’s smaller

11:12

than the object that we’re creating

11:14

and so and so we can print a very large

11:17

object

11:18

and also right now there are primarily

11:21

just

11:22

two people at a time on the building

11:24

site

11:25

and the tasks are

11:28

to sift mud to sift dirt

11:32

to mix to make mud and to press the

11:35

button on the printer

11:37

and so if you think about that as well

11:40

there are times when

11:41

when only one person could actually

11:44

execute this job

11:45

to construct a very large structure so

11:48

these are the largest structures that

11:49

we’ve

11:50

made this summer and they are 12 feet

11:53

tall

11:54

and they are large as a as a small room

11:57

so they’re really occupiable and two

11:58

people could sleep in

12:00

in one of the rooms that this printer

12:01

can make

12:03

and the printer itself is very

12:04

lightweight and so

12:06

i think one of the things this process

12:08

does is allow for

12:11

someone with very little skill in

12:14

robotics for example

12:15

or computer modeling or construction

12:19

to actually participate in the making of

12:21

a building

12:22

now having said that that’s not that is

12:25

not necessarily novel

12:26

again for thousands of years uh

12:29

just a couple of people using mud have

12:31

made buildings with their own hands

12:34

but i think what this also does it

12:36

allows for the deposition of mud to

12:39

occur

12:40

in ways that might not be so easy to

12:43

do by hand and that’s pretty exciting

12:46

and i think

12:46

while this research is fairly new to us

12:50

we’re discovering that we can make uh

12:52

stairs we can make

12:53

insulated wall cavities we can make

12:56

surfaces that have micro shading we can

12:58

make

12:58

structures that are very thin but very

13:01

strong

13:02

we can use less material so there’s

13:04

there’s i mean this is research that’s

13:06

just beginning over the last couple

13:07

years printing these very large

13:09

structures but

13:10

uh i can see years and years of

13:13

continued research on what’s possible

13:16

using this method

13:17

one thing that you know where as ron

13:19

said we’re at the very beginning

13:21

one thing that i really like about um

13:24

this traditional adobe house that

13:27

uh is in juan’s family is that the

13:29

interior of each room is plastered with

13:31

a different color earth

13:32

and i love that i think it’s so

13:34

beautiful and i love the notion that we

13:36

might be able to

13:37

3d print with different color earths to

13:39

get different effects

13:41

on the interior or for example we’ve

13:44

been

13:45

digging wild clays in the mountains of

13:47

northern new mexico

13:48

and the clay has mica in it so we could

13:51

have a kind of

13:52

shimmer right or reflectivity in the

13:54

material and

13:55

and so we’re just at the cusp of of

13:58

thinking about

14:00

the expanse of materials that we could

14:02

print with and how they might transform

14:05

this process as well or affect the

14:07

process so

14:08

yeah this really opens up the

14:10

possibilities it’s very fascinating

14:12

yeah i’d love to end with just a

14:14

question about

14:16

i know we were supposed to talk about

14:17

the basics of mud construction and we

14:19

have been essentially talking about that

14:21

but i’d like to ask

14:23

uh about if we think about rammed earth

14:26

or

14:26

mud or adobe structures a lot of times

14:29

they are

14:30

um assumed to be uh designed with fewer

14:33

means if we have less means we design in

14:35

that

14:35

in that material and so i i’m interested

14:38

in the social dynamics of mud

14:40

and what that means you know how how are

14:44

you confronting

14:45

that perception in a different way if

14:47

you feel that you are

14:49

oh yeah you know earth has

14:53

a long history

14:56

of being considered a material for the

14:58

poor

15:00

um and that has flipped occasionally and

15:02

so the history of earth and construction

15:04

in in new mexico and southern colorado

15:06

is actually that uh there became a point

15:09

in

15:10

in time when building codes

15:14

made it prohibitive for someone

15:17

for someone who was poor to build the

15:19

houses they had built for centuries

15:21

for different reasons right the code

15:23

might have said well now you need a

15:25

foundation that goes below the frost

15:26

line uh and

15:28

walls of adobe are can be two feet thick

15:30

so imagine now you have to build a

15:31

concrete foundation two feet thick that

15:33

goes

15:34

six feet deep and you also need a a bond

15:37

beam

15:38

above the wall to stabilize it when

15:40

traditionally you would use small pieces

15:42

of wood

15:42

to stabilize the wall from from lateral

15:45

forces

15:47

so at that same time that the poor could

15:50

no longer build

15:51

the buildings made out of earth the

15:53

wealthy

15:54

begin especially in santa fe and other

15:56

cities in new mexico

15:58

they begin desiring these buildings made

16:01

out of earth because

16:02

of their romantic connotations and

16:04

historical connotations and so there are

16:06

grand you know

16:08

uh homes in new mexico

16:12

made out of adobe and there’s there’s

16:14

actually

16:15

i mean given what i said about earth

16:16

entering the realm of capitalism there

16:18

is

16:19

the largest adobe yard in the world in

16:21

new mexico that produces up to 25 000

16:23

adobe’s a day for sale around the world

16:28

and um

16:31

and and so there there are these

16:32

preconceptions about

16:34

wealth and poverty that have also

16:36

affected and impacted the populations

16:38

who

16:39

would build these buildings

16:40

traditionally so

16:42

you know back to your question which was

16:44

how are we how are we dealing with this

16:46

phenomena of the preconceptions of earth

16:48

being the building material for the poor

16:50

i i think this largely has to do with

16:53

with design and and the elegance of of

16:56

the production of a building and so

16:59

you know people travel all around the

17:01

world to see

17:03

the wondrous structures that have been

17:04

built over the centuries made out of

17:06

earth and

17:07

and in some cases we’re finding these

17:09

are major tourist sites where people pay

17:11

a lot of money to stay in the hotels

17:13

and so if we can design with with

17:16

elegance

17:17

but also with a certain degree of

17:20

um

17:24

maybe the word might be

17:28

that it could be both inexpensive and

17:31

beautiful

17:33

then i think we can we can tread into

17:36

the realms where it could be more

17:37

culturally acceptable

17:39

again yeah yeah we call this project

17:43

mud frontiers because of course we’ve

17:45

been

17:46

printing at the frontier between the

17:47

united states and mexico and we’re also

17:49

at a technological frontier

17:51

but we also think of of it as

17:54

connecting to mobility because the

17:56

printer is so lightweight

17:57

ubiquity because soil is everywhere

18:01

right and democracy because we’re

18:03

developing this

18:04

um software app called potterwear which

18:06

runs in the cloud

18:08

which means that anyone can

18:11

develop files for 3d printing you don’t

18:13

have to know how to model anything

18:16

so it’s it’s immediate like a an 8th

18:18

grader can do this

18:20

in a day right right there’s also

18:23

a real special connection to the actual

18:26

place because the soil comes from the

18:28

local area

18:29

so different structures will have

18:31

different colors and

18:32

tendencies i imagine based on where

18:34

they’re built exactly

18:36

yeah yeah well i want to thank you so

18:39

much

18:40

for this wonderful conversation about

18:43

mud and construction and i really

18:45

applaud the

18:46

research that you’ve been doing and

18:48

we’ll look forward to following it as it

18:50

continues

18:51

and um thanks so much for your time yeah

18:54

thank you

18:54

thank you

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