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okay good afternoon and welcome to land life and liberation

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part one my name is sally frater and i’m the curator of contemporary art at the

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art gallery of guelph i am going to begin our time together with the recitation of the art gallery

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of guelph’s land acknowledgement today guelph is home to many first nations metis and inui people from

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across turtle island as we gather together we would like to acknowledge that the art gallery of

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guelph resides on the ancestral lands of the atawanderen people and more

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recently these treaty lands and territory of the mississaugas of the credit we recognize

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the significance of the dish with one spoon covenant to this land and offer respect to our anishinaabe

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hadina and metis neighbors as we strive to strengthen our relationships with

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them sorry hornoshoni and metis neighbors as we strive to strengthen our

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relationships with them we express our gratitude for sharing these lands for a mutual benefit

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although we are convening virtually and might individually be located in

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different places it is useful for all of us to remember that wherever we are and what we what are currently referred

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to as the americas we are on indigenous land and that we should move

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forward in a spirit of mindfulness and reciprocity before we begin

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some brief housekeeping notes since we are in zoom webinar everyone’s microphones are turned off

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and you are welcome to submit questions throughout the conversation using the chat function and we will share them following the

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close of the conversation we’ll have a q a where viewers can participate in uh

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broader dialogue land life and liberation is a series of five conversations that will

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unfold as an accompaniment to the decolonize this place exhibition when we breathe we breathe together

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which is currently on at the art gallery of guelph for information about this program this

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installation can be found online at the on the agg website the exhibition and conversations center

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the d colonial operations manual which is this document here

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and this can be downloaded on the websites of both decolonize this place

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and the art gallery of welsh as a starting point for reflection and

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action the d colonial operations manual embodies the principle of movement media and is a

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document offered as a tool of study reflection and action the manual is grounded in five years of

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collective thinking art making and organizing undertaken by decolonize this place

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with dozens of group in new york city

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i’m sorry lena piho king and beyond with numerous references to movement

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work preceding the establishment of dtp in 2016 as well

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the scale material quantity and distribution form of the manual underscores the importance

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of freely shared printed matter in the work of movement building and i just thought i’d offer a few um

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words about how this project came together at the art gallery of guelph um i have been working in the cultural

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sector for a number of years as a curator and the work

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that i do in and outside a variety of institutional spaces is largely based

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on who i am and the experiences um of i guess

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of myself and larger groups that i consider myself um to be a member of or affiliated with

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and a lot of the work that i do um is predicated on the work of artist

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collaborators people who are making work about place about identity about migration

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about um the prison industrial complex about abuses of of class

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and and race and gender and also the importance of inclusion and

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recollection and belonging and i suppose over the past year um

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for those of us who are working in similar ways or both in and outside of the space of

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arts organizations um at a moment of a global pandemic

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um following a number of uprisings in um resistance

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um against a number of racial abuses a lot of us have taken the time to sort

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of um reflect on the work that we’re doing how it’s connected to to movements that

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are happening on a global scale so how the distance between where we’re located and elsewhere

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can be collapsed but also the integrity um and the sincerity of some of these

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actions and i know that these are things that i have been sort of mulling over

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um over the past few months and when there was an opening in our exhibition schedule it suddenly occurred

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to me that this would be a good opportunity to to offer an invitation to a collective

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of people whose work has uh whose work i’ve been following for the past five years

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and their insistence on um sort of direct action and

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honesty and accountability has sustained me and countless others who um consider

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ourselves fortunate enough to be able to do this work so i’m very grateful to have um the

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opportunity to come together through the space of an exhibition and virtually when we can’t um be

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together physically at this time um the conversations that will take place

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in this series we’ll explore a number of threads related to the confluence of land sovereignty liberation and resistance

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today’s participants include the members of decolonize this place along with maria hufffield jason mujean

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nikita big ones

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shelene rodriguez and brittany williams before each participant speaks i’m going

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to ask you all to briefly introduce yourselves um i welcome you all and i’m going to

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turn things over to amin and natasha

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hi thank you so much sally for that introduction and thank you for you know bringing us this project uh we

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usually don’t work with with institutions in this way i think the last time we did something like this was an artist space

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where we met the rest of the crazies were on this call um so this is actually really uh amazing moment for us uh because you

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know it’s a kind of a recap of five years of like you know work that we’ve been doing

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um so i mean i’m i don’t i’m not gonna take a lot of time uh i just wanted to say that uh what

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we’re hoping today for uh this conversation is to be able to think about

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you know reflect and as the manual is there reflect study um about action and specifically think

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about the failures that we’ve had and the successes as well but specifically the failures that we’ve had

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in building the kind of relations that we desire right and like what have been um some of our challenges uh within that

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um i the reason why i mentioned this is because you know over the last five years we’ve seen like really crazy turns

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both in terms of the colonial and land back movements that have been happening both you know in in in the us

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and in canada and then specifically with you know ftp and and and the george floyd stuff and

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before that you know our organizing uh with the whitney museum kind of brought me an end organizing against porn foundation

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kind of brought uh the role of ngos and counterinsurgency specifically with an abolitionist

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movement to kind of you know a kind of a height and then lastly i think the biggest challenge one of the biggest challenges

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is like how do our organizing spaces and specifically movements in the united states and in

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canada and in the west overall tackle the problem of anti-imperialism um or this kind of

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you know the problem that we see where you know the kind of exceptionalization of the western organizing kind of

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tactics and strategies in our movement spaces um so in a short like kind of a way how

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do we build you know abolitionists the colonial anti-imperialist spaces in the same breath right

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and and not as separate issue silos and and not that we lose the specific the specificity of these struggles

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because it’s really important that we see from each of these perspectives in each of these lenses but then what does solidarity look like

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you know when we mean land back abolition and no nation states um so i just that’s

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it and uh what you know we could do is just go around uh maybe you know not the dtp folks

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first but other folks could just you know introduce themselves and maybe you know share something for two three minutes which is you know a

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starter for a conversation um and then we go from there

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just so i can i can just say just to add and pass it on um the intention

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of these the intention of our engagement with golf and with sally sally’s been a large part of us

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participating in this and giving us the kind of um collaborative space

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for us to to do what we think is needed and to make use of a gallery space and its resources

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for something other than or more than so i think the

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intention really was to kind of create a frame that can allow us to have important conversations these are really

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what we were working towards and so the manual in a way is to kind of

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ground this conversation but within uh five we anticipate five uh

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conversations that will happen bi-weekly where they build on each other both in an analysis that leads towards

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action that can be an initiative that whatever that looks like that kind of embodies this kind of uh

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politics and it’s one that’s based on relationality and kind of responsibility but our intention from these

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conversations is to produce something tangible to come out of this and not just conversation for conversation’s sake

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so with that and passing it on it’s about you being present and bringing whatever you want to share

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that you think is important for this moment

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and people can just go i think that if you just kind of do raise your hand or whatever and then we can just loosely

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facilitate come on y’all maria maybe start with you

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and jason yeah yeah yeah that’d be wonderful maria why don’t you go first since you’re a

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anishinabe and we’re on your turf okay uh so i’m uh um in jason’s studio

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uh here here in toronto let me know if you can hear me okay because i’m above uh there’s some

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skateboarders in the next space so you may hear a body fall once in a while um

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and some a lot of noise but anyway it’s really good to be here when in a bonjour

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calling in from toronto uh over in cabbagetown um

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our treaty partners who i like to acknowledge are the mississauga of the credit

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who um and also the the dish with one spoon treaty which

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i’ve heard has been broken and there’s a lot of work happening through around that uh so i’m back here in

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toronto after arts two years after living in new york so it’s really good to see some familiar

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faces here uh what else can i say i’m a borderlands

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fellow at the bureau list center and the center for the imaginary in the

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borderlands that natalie diaz runs at arizona state

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university and i also am a canadian research chair at the university of toronto and i run a

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space a research space that is not a lab

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it’s a i call it the indigenous creation studio so we’re really looking at connecting indigenous methodologies

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with the work that happens in that space because a lot of indigenous work isn’t theorized and then i guess the other

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thing i want to throw out there is thinking about art

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outside of the institution but also our as a more expansive definition art moving in this direction where art

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can become um this idea of like indigenous story work or story work and the more

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expansive scope that connects community that connects ceremony that connects dance and all these other ideas so

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that’s a little bit about me and i work with my husband jason lujan

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um it appears to be a lot of jason lujans here today but i’ll let my collaborator with native

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art department i’m going to pass it over to you thanks maria so i am the original jason

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lujan all other jason lujans on this panel originate from my link so it’s um i

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i just moved here in 2019 from new york city after working in museums for 20 years and having a

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really successful career what’s funny is i was looking at as i have actually operated an office at

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some point in time at every museum that decolonized this place has had some

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sort of protest at maybe not at the exact moment you were doing work there but uh and so what’s funny is the image

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for this one is in front of the mat which is one of my favorite places to work and

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you know and one of the things as and i was at the time i was the only native quote-unquote

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native american person working in a museum of 2500 people but it would be very strange because all

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these places would know my politics and so occasionally someone would come in and put like a decolonization place

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sticker somewhere on the wall or in the bathroom the security would run over to my office jason something gonna happen what’s

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going on and they would expect me to kind of out something that i had no knowledge of and

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you know and i would usually answer with i don’t think this is official i’m pretty sure they don’t like merchandise

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stickers or you know things like that inevitably though they would get a photograph of the person and so

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i think we all know now by now that pre-pandemic there’s been a drive in museums to automate ticket purchasing with kiosks and one of

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the reasons is because they’ll take your photo when you purchase tickets so you know they don’t advertise that but it’s well known

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you’ll see a little pinhole above the screen and when you purchase tickets takes your photo and from that point on

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they can track you or from the point of you know wherever you put the sticker on in the bathroom or what have you

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and they would bring me those pictures and say do you know these people well no and it was really funny because these

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security departments were also made up of artists too i would go to their shows or their spouse’s shows

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and we would talk about this so it was really funny to be in a situation where and these security guards were almost

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always people of color um and they would say well you know what are we going to do

15:59

about this kind of is anything going to happen if anything’s going to happen jason you’ll let me know right and i’d be like sure but nothing ever i was never

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involved with any of that kind of stuff but it was it was unusual to be in a situation

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where inevitably we were always expected during meetings we would always turn to

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kind of workshopping solutions to finding a way for a museum to have equity

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but without doing any of the work of having the justice that goes along with it and so that’s kind of what my i think

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that’s what i can contribute for this

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conversation thank you thank you um you know i would say you know shaleem bri

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people that are making one of you if you feel comfortable and ready to just share

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some of your thoughts and reflections things that you want to bring into the room i mean i can say some incoherent if

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you don’t mind go for it all right what’s up everybody

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i’m chilling right through you guys um uh i am coming to you live from the bx

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from the bronx in new york um and uh let’s see man i’ve been rocking with

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dtp since 2016. i’m one of the crazies

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as natasha said from uh artist space um i guess like you know when

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amin and natasha asked me to jump on this call um what always comes to mind for me like

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if i’m going to talk about dtp or talk about the work that we’ve done collaboratively for the last five years together it’s

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like the logic behind working with people for me how i see it

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you know what i’m saying um you know i i was i have been part of an

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organizing crew in the bronx the grassroots radical group called take back the bronx

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for the past 10 years um and you know [Applause]

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all right i said incoherent so here goes the incoherency you know i’ve been thinking a lot about

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new york city as like a contested space right like you know my people

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migrated here you know we’re the industrial migrants you know we came here through either you

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know jim crow like so as refugees from the south or operation bootstrap from the

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caribbean you know that’s more where i lean towards because i’m puerto rican um and you know we we made this place a

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home you know we work here we live here we die here we make children here and that’s sort of

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been the deal for a while you know um

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i’m thinking about how uh how the industrialization just ripped us

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apart coupled with all of the plagues that were visited upon us

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i mean i don’t have to go through y’all know the story you know uh and then the neoliberal shift that

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neoliberal shift is a really interesting uh thing to think about and the reason why it comes up is because of the

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organizing work that we’ve been doing together for the last five years because for us the logic of working with dtp was

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like well you know we’ve been in a standoff against the elite of this city

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as the now expendable uh the industrial uh like the now uh expendable uh

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industrial migrants that are no longer needed since uh since the industrialization

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since the neon standoff of them for this land you know they metaphorically burned our villages in

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the 70s you feel me so like thinking about decolonization

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and um the structural violence of settler colonialism for us these industrial migrants that

19:57

are like trying to stay home kind of stay in the

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places that we’ve made home since we’ve gotten here is like uh it’s an ongoing battle it’s an ongoing

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battle so like when dtp presents like uh this framework that’s like

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uh going into museum institutions to like rattle the

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cage and be like these are the people that are on the board here this is how they connect that makes

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sense to me that makes sense to me because we know i mean it’s well documented

20:32

that when the city decided to move from managerial entrepreneurial it was uh the media

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and public relations boards the tourism boards the finance sector the the govern like government the uh um

20:48

real estate all these folks formed an apparatus that includes museum institutions they

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all sit on these boards you see what i’m saying like you know rockefeller uh what’s it uh nelson

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rockefeller was the governor while while his brother david was the uh the ceo of citibank

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uh chase manhattan you know saying so like it makes sense for us for you know

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there’s that there’s scales there you know for us to take back a bronx the scale is like it’s local you know what

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i’m saying like we’re we’re fighting landlords we’re fighting you know the the local councilman who’s trying to

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rezone our neighborhoods we’re fighting the bronx borough president we’re fighting the police but dtp presents it

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like what dtp does because new york the way it’s split up it’s like you know there’s the local

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there’s the inward facing fight which is the city has to like deal with the leftover

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population and you know kind of you know without wanting to

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provide basic services for us which we’re always clamoring for because we’re a city of people

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then there’s the outward facing which is that new york is the empire of the world and it’s a it’s a it’s a it’s a world stage and a

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contested space and everybody wants to get on the mic here you know and so like the connection to

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dtp is that they are rattling the cage on the world stage they are hitting the global while

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hitting the local at the same time and so for the look for for us it makes sense that’s a that’s

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that’s another theater of operation for us to get it because it’s twofold for us our enemy uh our enemy as the local is

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also the global in a really up way i guess i could explain that later down the road but whatever how

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y’all doing thank you so much celine that’s really really important to bring in

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um make an act if yeah go for it yeah honey everyone uh

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mcnack in digital cause i’m from uh mishnavik from uh requiema congratulated territory here um

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i’m really grateful to be here on uh on territory that is uh in contestation and cooperation at

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all different times between haudenosaunee and um i’m here um recently at uh

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join the faculty at u of t in the art museum in the art history department i’m i work with um with ancestral beings

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or objects in museums mostly so what i do is i go in and i’m interested in bringing community members and bringing elders

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into collections with us and into museum spaces and being able to be uh be the

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institutional access key that uh gets us in there so that we can reclaim some of the uh

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lines of uh knowledge transmission or some of the descent some of the stuff that’s been uh deliberately stubborn um and

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kind of created as dead objects in museums so i’m interested in that and uh sometimes i guess it’s uh i’m

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good at i just hang around with with with these things with these ancestral things in museums so much that

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it’s uh difficult for me to remember how to interface with um with people and i was interested when i

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was in new york city is when i started working with to colonize this place and i’m interested in

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in how once you’re in a museum how is it how do you how is that museum

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shaping your behavior and how can you learn differently so while i was in there um

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i was i’m i think a lot of my work about how about critiques of museums as

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institutional spaces and as opera at places where the machinery of the state of citizenship

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of teaching you how to be like a a good citizen all those things are are shaping you

24:36

while you’re in a museum museum is a space where you go how to learn go learn how to be an ideal citizen right

24:42

um all those different logics of settler colonialism all the logics of state building they’re in they are

24:50

operating on you as you are in the museum space i want to think about how those museums

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spaces we can also go in there to learn how to resist those structures right so coming into contact with decolonize

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this place and some of the facilitating work they’ve been doing connecting all these different struggles i started participating in these actions

25:09

and i’m started learning how these museums which are sites where

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you learn how to behave in accordance with these states with these uh these kinds of models of surveillance and

25:20

control that you internalize so if the museum is a place you’d go to to to

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learn how to be a law abiding citizen how to how to be a part of this machine to colonize this

25:32

place as us help me see how you can go to these spaces to learn how to resist those exact logics

25:38

i want to be able to to take that into my work in museums and art spaces and be able to

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uh make art spaces um places for connection

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and not for for atomization not not for ways not for not places where you where

25:55

we become individualized and uh pieces of a larger machinery some place where we can remember how to

26:00

come together and make those connections once again right make connections that are outside the state outside of capitalism and outside

26:06

of forces that try to hit us against each other right i’m i want to make i want to start

26:13

conversations and uh start doing that facilitation start doing those that work that

26:18

makes these spaces productive for life-giving work because that’s what we’re all doing here

26:24

um that’s what we’re that’s the work that we’re engaged in and so i’m really interested in being able to

26:30

that energy that we had in new york i would really like to be able to bring that here some of that i think is talking between the struggles making

26:36

common spaces making spaces where we can see where those logics those those um

26:42

structures are controlled of a and colonialism places where we can see how they’re happening like the

26:48

monument struggles have done for us right all those monuments struggles have shown us how those uh how these

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structures of control are there in public spaces and how we can resist them and so

27:02

um yep thanks very much that’s that’s what i would like to talk about today

27:09

thank you so much and um now i want to pass it on to brittany and ben and i just want to say

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that like uh um britney and ben are two special people

27:21

but i know britney from the first action dtp ever did before was dtp and i remember

27:28

getting on the phone with britney and and saying listen you put out this thing on medium and we just

27:33

we we’re planning on going over there what do you what do you got to share what do you got to say so i’m just putting that on the map as

27:39

like really a resonance of like institutions as sites of struggle and transformation

27:46

and movement building in which we can all were thinking about it around the same time and we were just fortunate

27:52

enough to through actions find each other bro wow absolutely i remember that

28:00

i remember talking with you um i think for uh for me thank you for bringing it

28:06

up i mean and sitting with me in a different space now um what’s coming to me i’m a movement

28:11

artist and i’m a part of a collective called get this more dance we’re just looking at

28:16

um black um dances as war dances since we’ve been here on

28:24

stolen land we have been at war we have been at genocide and we have experienced violence over

28:30

and over and over again right and so we’re talking about museums

28:36

and we’re talking about objects being stolen and we’re talking about the black body also being looked at as an object

28:45

then we see the connections around how white supremacy all these different

28:50

layers of idioms continue to strip and and violate us

28:56

um over and over and over again and so like thinking about dtp’s work

29:02

and we know that the art world is the place where they wash their money just like

29:08

they wat white wash our bodies white watch our culture and put it on consumption

29:13

for capitalism period right um and so thinking about the this embodiment and

29:20

what lies beyond liberation what what i’ve been thinking about in this moment

29:25

is liberation is colonized at this point what’s beyond it

29:32

right um given that our bodies have been stolen we have been fighting many different

29:38

battles um i beg the question around like our imaginations

29:44

um is it really enough to dream us out of our realities or do we really need to

29:50

have an embodied practice what is that embodied knowledge in our bodies um that our ancestors gave us um

29:58

you know like people talk about harriet tubman all the time but i’m on a riff now but like harriet’s

30:04

helmet dream because she know the ancestors was giving her that some information right um the dances before you go into

30:11

war um there are war dances those things call upon what was before us and what will be

30:19

after us so how i’m entering this space with dtp is looking at the museum the same way

30:26

that i’m looking at um disembodied practice of dancing um

30:31

because together they’re like we continue to separate art but together it

30:37

tells a different story about our power that’s in our bodies but the power that we can produce

30:44

um process however you want to call it um to get beyond liberation um

30:50

and down into some maroon niche and some deep deep work and building collectively and i’mma pass

30:57

it to ben um me and being we we work together on so many different projects um

31:04

yeah i’ll let him introduce himself thank you thank you for thank you for that brittany hey everybody sorry for

31:11

sorry for the wait of course i put the wrong time on my uh schedule but i’m here ready and present um

31:17

thank you for you all for putting this all together and and bring this all together um i think

31:23

everybody covered everything uh i’m here for us to think and reflect and strategize

31:29

towards the directions we need to go um we gotta build with each other we gotta create

31:34

whatever we need to create we gotta create it um and then you know transition to the next level always

31:40

evolving always you know being creative so i’m excited to participate in the

31:46

conversation i’ll pass it to whoever is next or whoever is willing to enable

31:53

before we let you off the hook ben and brett i think it’s important just to i’m i’m kind of um

32:00

just bringing a couple of things out with these questions and you can choose to ignore them or not

32:05

and i think the same goes for shailene just because they come from from from these struggles in the city um

32:12

you know chilean was one of the people that kind of said at some point dtp has done enough in the world or of

32:20

museums and perhaps it can learn something by pivoting to the city right so that i

32:25

you know that’s one point i want to bring up uh as not as sites of struggle and not

32:32

specific but what was your thinking behind that because i think it informs what happens and i think for britain ben

32:38

you know y’all y’all really kind of pay attention to the money and i think that you also um were

32:45

instrumental in us paying attention to the ford foundation and so you know thinking about the pivot

32:52

to the city coupled with you know the ford foundation is money and

32:57

i would say this i think part of what’s in the room right now is a conversation around decolonization and

33:03

abolition and anti-imperialism and anti-capitalism and so your thoughts from your place

33:10

around that is really important we’re not limiting it to museums we’re thinking about an analysis

33:19

i can answer if if you’re not ready all right again more more incoherent

33:26

thoughts but i i think um i mean to answer your question

33:32

like when i was saying this thing about like new york being a contested space like and why i mean why museums matter

33:38

and why pivoting to the city like you know the pivot to the city is really

33:45

you know i mean like the the museum is the city

33:50

you know what’s saying the museum actually is the city you know what i’m saying um but um

33:59

what i’m thinking about like is actually connects to the four foundation also you see like um

34:08

when i say new york is like a contested space and what i mean is that uh

34:15

when this flip to the neoliberal kind of uh re-org of new york

34:22

happens it happens at the same time as the count intelligence program you see what i’m saying like

34:27

there is a flooding of um you know not just like the dog

34:32

whistle to the like cultural uh you know to like you know the professionalized artists and the

34:38

people who want to you know like frank sinatra made uh new york new york in 1985

34:44

pro you know um you know people don’t know that if you think that that was made in the 50s but that was

34:49

made in 1985 you know like so i say that to say like there is a calling of people into new

34:57

york many sectors we made the mistake for a long time i think to just think about it

35:02

in terms of artwashing and artists only but you know um looking past the artists

35:09

or looking past the real estate we have to look at colleges and we have to look at how universities

35:15

you know pull in an array of sectors in array of sectors including the

35:21

non-profit industrial complex you know what i’m saying so then what we have on the ground

35:27

is uh is uh an upgraded like

35:33

replacement labor pool of people who are very ambitious who are

35:39

in this in the city and into space and they uh they are they don’t have a context

35:48

of the standoff that i mentioned before that context is missing you see what i’m saying and so uh

35:55

for us uh the fight ends up kind of being like we gotta fight we gotta fight people

36:02

with no context who came here for ambitious upwardly mobile reasons

36:07

you see what i’m saying to get to what the actual issue is which is uh

36:13

darren walker throwing how much money was it brittany like

36:19

bro listen in the height of the george floyd protests he put down a billion a billion one

36:27

billion dollars in social bonds to anybody he framed it on the covert

36:34

related but it was social but it was but it was for social justice initiatives

36:39

they’re constantly flooding the city with with their own initiatives you see what

36:44

i’m saying like which which what that actually means is like okay y’all want to do social justice

36:50

work well here is a framework for you to do it that we allow and fund for you and that operates as a

36:58

as a snuffing tool for local grassroots so our work with dtp got around that

37:06

you see what i’m saying and there were problems present on the ground once we did that you see what i’m saying

37:12

like once uh once we asked dtp to pivot

37:18

outside of the museum we saw the same behavior as we saw in the museum when would when when we

37:25

went to the whitney in the very beginning because i was part

37:30

of those conversations we said look uh once when they released

37:36

the names of everybody who was gonna be in the biennial we saw it it was like

37:42

it was human shields i was like this is gonna be a black biennial that was in reaction

37:47

to the dana’s shirt two years ago so their pr firm was like you better make this a black biannual

37:53

that way you know that way you can get around critique now that’s not to say that we don’t

38:01

deserve our day in court currently the the like current currently the bx is like constructing

38:07

the hip-hop museum all of like the pioneers are part of this so like you know it’s like the

38:13

authentic genuine uh desire because you care about this to like be seen

38:20

um and like not not to be seen but like to uh to like uh archive and hold on and like conserve

38:26

the history the culture weaponized so you know what i’m saying

38:32

uh so to to say that is to say like yes black artists are like you know our our

38:38

cultural expression should be seen but the museum is a sneaky

38:44

what they do is they’re they’re sneaky right that was that was pr so of course

38:51

the conversation is like i we see this list we know what’s gonna happen

38:58

reach out to artists as many as you can and let them know look this is not about the artists

39:03

this is this is something else these y’all know the situation and progress is

39:09

history but despite that fact what we encounter over and over and over and over again

39:16

it’s like a broken record is the strike the strike breakers and the fight

39:23

and the union in the boss gets away with murder so then you end up in like unnecessary

39:29

conflict with with with artists who feel like personally attacked

39:35

really that is just cognitive dissonance you know what i’m saying but like you know you end up in this like

39:40

unnecessary like bickering meanwhile this dude is sitting pretty

39:46

you see i’m saying so like when when we move outside of the museum we encounter the same you encounter

39:54

nonprofits who are like that’s not the way you protest and like you encounter like uh people

39:59

who have their own vision of what they think new york is and what they think the community is

40:06

because i’m so sick of this work community what community are you talking about whose community are you talking about

40:12

let’s be clear here you know what i’m saying you encounter these kinds of walls and and that is why i think that um

40:20

this is a very important conversation we need to go back and look at why this is like this

40:26

pattern and and who are the players why like what is the what is the the ideas and the the

40:33

feelings behind that that continues to like make this replicate itself

40:38

you know like you know the the um excuse me sorry i’m swearing so much um you know

40:45

like the the pivot to the street and how nonprofits and me and other leftists uh

40:54

clicks or whatever you don’t say like the struggle for power that happened on the street that

40:59

that was just basically like a regurgitation of how the museum acts it’s like a weird defensive thing it’s

41:05

about like it’s a like it’s about power and it’s it’s something that needs to be

41:10

unpacked and cleared up and looked at very well so that we can try to get around that because

41:17

this is new york is always going to continue to happen and you know i i i i often say that i’m probably going

41:23

to end up exiled out of new york if i keep talking all this you know what i’m saying so like um

41:29

y’all need any help thinking about this where you at let me know because um

41:35

yeah man you know i’m saying like maybe new york is not the site to do this in we we’re like 10 months

41:42

you know we’re like 10 miles away from wall street man they’re gonna just continue to reproduce

41:48

fighting bodies for us through milk like liberal multiculturalism you know what i’m saying like they will

41:55

just continue to double down on representation and you know like yo look like like the

42:02

colonized mind is a hard thing to break bro

42:09

i rather a couple things i want to add to what shayleen was saying you hit it right on the head

42:14

um i wrote something up talking about black dance artists

42:21

and what just resonating with me is like um can be applied here it’s like

42:27

um are are is there a difference between a house and field

42:34

are we still in the world of grant making

42:40

waiting for them to give us permission to create and i think um

42:47

that’s one the second thing is that the ford foundation specifically created

42:55

the um the new york police um foundation which is actually

43:04

um a middle like these these are the uh this foundation on

43:10

their board is the targets it’s the bloombergs it’s the people who you know the corporations and and the

43:17

wealthiest people in the world on the board but this foundation also had

43:23

um work with israel works with all of the western um colonized colonizers um

43:31

and police foundations in the world right they have bases across the globe and who set the fort foundation the

43:39

foundation also set up the network of police units and whatever they set up these um

43:47

surveillance technology oh the other thing i will say is they were set up i think in the what 70s

43:54

and 80s during the original hot summers and you can go on their website and they

44:00

will tell you it was set up um to prevent

44:05

uprisings and riots from happening again right so when you look at having um

44:12

large corporations on the board and you look at why they set up then the question

44:17

becomes um well it’s not even a question it’s very clear around police being here

44:25

to protect wealthy people and in new york city what this means is that new york has always been a

44:32

testing ground for surveillance and so when you talk about i’m not from new york city but

44:38

when i organize in new york city i’m with people from new york because they have lived through this

44:44

right um over and over and over and over and over again so i think um that is

44:51

one of the the biggest things that needs to set with us and so when we looked at follow

44:57

following the money and we all came together um to call out ford foundation

45:03

um what we realized is it’s not just for foundation um just think about this like the museum

45:11

is another form of plantation right they give us in return and also

45:16

too when we’re talking about we talk about gentrification but we don’t talk about the inflation process

45:22

that happens as well along with gentrification that is down to all of our depletes all of our resources completely

45:31

in our communities um and i’m saying like we talk about inflation as

45:37

money but inflation as culture inflation as um

45:43

rest black restaurants or restaurants or community things that were there and is not there anymore so like

45:49

these type this type of violence continues and continues to happen um i had one more point but i can’t

45:55

remember um we’ll come to you yes yeah so just

46:00

those things right right there around like hey what like we really need to take a look

46:06

at the grant making process because that like they’re basically telling you if you don’t do this

46:14

they’re setting the guidelines around how much risk you can take how like how much you know money you can

46:22

get if you are in in their um spectrum of of thinking

46:28

and so how do you break that down destroy it and continue to do other things like

46:33

what is the disruption even if you apply for it um i’m going off on the rift even if you’re applying for grants

46:40

that you you’re doing this and be like oh that i’m doing something else to continue to disrupt these processes

46:46

as much as possible

46:51

um thank you for that bernie and if you remember that other last point just jump in at any point um so

46:58

i’m gonna make some broad statements and and they’re gonna sound wild and inflammatory but they’re gonna just be

47:03

what i’m thinking at this moment so one of the things that people always like to say is that black people

47:09

have a oral culture and they even extend that to say people of color have an oral culture

47:14

and there’s a certain level of disrespect that is associated with that you know because they’re trying to say we’re artistic and spiritual and we

47:20

you know we have these deep connections with each other which is true on a certain level there’s a lot of truth to that

47:26

but as a black person as an african one of the things i want black people to know that you know we are the first

47:31

people so what that means is that we invented writing we invented all of these

47:36

like just these things are just aren’t a big deal to us we just been doing it for so long it is we don’t obsess over them right so

47:44

they give us a one-dimensional view of ourselves so we think oh okay i can’t do research and critique and analyze and be

47:50

scientific in in order no we invented those things right i can i could send you links to to

47:58

to caves uh uh in the congo where you see high-level math being done by villages

48:04

right i come from a place where people were doing uh uh abortions and and and um anesthesiology

48:12

thousands of years before those words were even defined uh in the west right so we’ve been we’ve

48:17

been doing that so what does that relate to this moment the the the systems that we’re confronting

48:25

a lot of them basically originate from western europe and western civilization right and the

48:31

reality is is if you understand their history what you find is a lot of them actually

48:36

they learn how to write very recently right england didn’t learn didn’t have a written a a script they took that from

48:44

the romans the french all of those the spanish actually saw writing and all of those things from

48:50

the romans and also saw black people in moore’s writing and then they rejected science

48:55

and became super religious right as a rejection of those things right

49:00

but the friend the french the english all of those people who then created the us that we understand they’re obsessed with writing they see

49:08

themselves as the epitome of civilization right what that means for us is that

49:13

everything is documented there’s a document for everything there’s a trail somewhere

49:18

if you gotta if you’re trying to figure out something if i’m the manager of your store and you’re trying to

49:24

figure out if i’m really if there’s if you see your organization that’s doing

49:29

supposed good work but you’re thinking they’re a little funny there’s a there’s a money trail and a documentation trail somewhere

49:36

that will articulate what you’re talking about because all of it is you know it’s part of

49:43

that that culture of of becoming very scientific and writing they they become one dimensional they’re obsessed about

49:48

the written text which really is no more powerful than the oral text right there’s no they’re really they’re not much

49:54

different right um and also the lesson for us also as well

49:59

is that the our previous movements when we’re talking about civil rights we’re talking about black power in the u.s

50:06

context and really around the world but like we just focus on the us is we want a lot of things we want those

50:12

folks are the reasons why we’re alive but we also one of the things that deceptive things we want is we want

50:17

politeness from the system so a lot of things that britney’s talking about where back in the day they’ll say we’re creating this

50:23

foundation to destruct movement they’re never gonna ever say that ever again that’s done you’re not gonna see

50:28

documents past 1975 saying that type of language what they’re gonna say is the opposite

50:34

they’re gonna say they learned hey you can’t really walk up to a black person and disrespect them to their face

50:40

because that’s what that was the previous system previous system was up front honest to your face now they’re like you

50:46

can’t do that right and the tension within the white power structure is between a group that

50:52

wants to go back to being honest and a group that doesn’t like that that it’s embarrassing so trump is an embarrassment

50:58

to about 60 to 70 percent of the white power structure and there’s a 20 30 that’s like nah

51:03

that’s our guy we with that old school regular where you just tell mexicans what they are you tell

51:10

women what they are you just be real and it’s like okay that’s some wild but that’s that’s the that’s the truth he’s telling the

51:16

truth and they with that so but again he’s a minority in the in this power structure in a certain way

51:23

so we we the the system is polite but everything now though is hidden within documents

51:29

so if you peel the layers of the documents and the money then you’ll see oh this is what you’re really saying so up front you know all of us whether

51:36

you work in a non-profit municipal government private sector whatever branch of the

51:42

system your civic society you’re working in is never going to explic the hospitals aren’t going to say

51:47

our goal is to make sure black people don’t live past 65. like no no one would say that but if you

51:54

look at the documentation you start to realize wait you are you have created a system that

52:01

will create this outcome like it’s predictable right and in 65

52:07

and 68 you were honest about it then around 71 72 73 you stopped being honest about it but then you see the

52:13

documentation the same people who run the system still run the system they just put a lot of shell companies in the

52:18

way so that’s the dynamic we’re in and so what we what our responsibility now is like it’s

52:24

really it’s time to be serious like it’s time to be serious like all the money is blood money and it’s time to be a serious

52:30

uh due to work in a serious way we can’t afford to be stupid like we can’t afford to be like oh i

52:35

don’t know uh wait what what what’s happening no you got to know you got to know the and

52:40

operate with a clear understanding and a clear analysis be scientific with it and spiritual with

52:46

it and in fact that that dichotomy again that’s that’s why people structure like scientific and

52:51

spirituality it’s one of the same so you got to move with that with with that synergy and that understanding

52:57

right you can be secular and spiritual at the same time if you need to be um and and just for example to show you

53:02

just how simple it is that the money is everywhere like everything is blood money like if everyone was

53:08

if you if you output your phone to your to your screen unless you’re using your actual phone

53:13

every phone if you holding your phone if you’re touching your laptop every phone the the raw materials to

53:21

make this phone come from the congo right the coltan the cobalt all of that comes from the congo

53:28

and damn near all of the technology that we have comes from africa from the congo as in they are children and people who

53:34

are going into mines and digging up out of the ground right right and much of this is enforced

53:41

forced labor you know slavery what have you that is present with us so this idea that black

53:48

death and this thing is a myth and it’s far away no every time you touch your phone you touch africa right and

53:54

particularly for black people you gotta you gotta realize that that you you never you you know africa is always gonna be there the minute you touch it you touch

54:00

your phone you’re touching after so you you understand that not only just to understand the level of the system and

54:05

the violence but also understand that the connection is alive that some child dug up your phone and that child looks like your cousin

54:12

and that child is part of a critical movement in their place and they’re waiting for you to get online to your

54:17

so your struggle whatever it is so the nature of your system is the oppression here in new york city or

54:23

in wherever you’re at is i’m gonna work you to death so you can barely afford this phone

54:29

right so you gotta wait for the update whereas the impression out the other way is you don’t even know that you’re digging up a phone you just know that

54:35

you you forced to dig up a phone and so and and our role then is to make that connection and the document

54:41

in 65 they only just been honest hey yo we got this from over here uh when we dropped the bomb uh atomic

54:47

bomb they said the reason the u.s was able to drop the atomic bomb because they controlled the congo and they were able to dig out the

54:53

minerals from there and create the atomic bomb right that’s so everything major event in world

55:00

history africa and black people were central to it being possible right and so so our thinking has to

55:07

understand that our we’re always connected and also the system is we are the our

55:12

death and our blood is at the heart of everything that the system does um and then

55:18

given that you know given that you understand that now it’s like what i show you something as simple as

55:24

your phone now think about it whether you’re working at a municipal space you your city agency all of these outposts

55:31

are the non-profit or you’re working in the private sector or you freelancing or whatever you’re doing

55:36

every system you’re interfacing with it if you peel the layers like maybe only one or two layers back

55:41

as far as documentation you start to look who get who’s on the board who gives the money who does and then

55:48

you start to see the truth right ignore the mission statement the mission statement is always going to be positive because they learned not to be

55:54

disrespectful to people to their face so they’re never going to be you

56:00

never again they know that stupid oh you know trump excuse trump you know he’s the he’s the best black

56:05

sheep of the family but as far as the broader system they’re never going to do that no more but if you just peel back the layers

56:12

what you find out is hey the person who runs the your your city agency where you work

56:18

in hospital services or whatever they own the museum but in the museum is

56:24

the artistic space to make them look like a good person but then at the same time they will run weapons manufacturing

56:31

and they dropping bombs in yemen right now that’s how that work now everybody knows that yemen bombing

56:37

is gonna be the that no one wants to hear about but what you hear about is the hospital and what you hear is about is the the

56:43

the museum and so your role is to see okay this is the game y’all playing

56:48

and and to deconstruct that and make it very simple and yeah so this is all possible like you not

56:54

everyone can can see this stuff if you just take a few seconds reflect it doesn’t take a super genius super smart

56:59

um in fact like you know that’s one of the lies they tell us is that you got to go to these schools and learn how to be

57:05

to be able to do this and you know i i was brainwashed into that and then slowly coming out of that understanding

57:10

oh yo i could have figured this stuff out on my own so that’s that’s where i’m at with that um yeah that’s that’s all i might end as

57:17

far as the research and how to how this should move thank you thank you ben i want to kind of circle back um now

57:24

through um maria jason mickey nack and then open it up to to us uh for thoughts so going backwards

57:33

in the same way things that you know you want to share or bring into the room in light of

57:39

just keep the conversation going

57:44

me connected i really enjoyed jason go ahead i’m sorry i just started speaking i apologize um i really enjoyed what

57:51

everyone said and i feel like there’s a certain level of us all already knowing a lot of this but

57:58

needing to be reminded that these are things um that we need to address and come through in our daily

58:03

lives rather than just bringing them to the fore when we’re asked to when we’re asked to

58:10

as opposed to bringing it to the fore without necessarily asking permission

58:16

so thanks for that

58:22

um yeah i’m i’m grateful to everyone and i’m uh i’m uh um energized by

58:31

though by the way that we’re taking this from this from this from the idea of art spaces to the world

58:36

right where are where all those interconnections going they’re not just going to the tour to the people next door or whatever it’s

58:43

uh because because we lived in in this political climate because we live in this world that came about through colonization it

58:49

came about through extraction our love really uh all our relations sometimes are on the other end of a very

58:56

fraught you know line of connection the phones that we hold in our hand that is a very fraught connection but it is a connection to someone that we’re

59:01

responsible to on the other end of it we are responsible to to those people and it’s those responsibilities go much

59:08

further than they used to but they’re still important we have to think about we have to think about all of those when we uh if we’re going to be

59:14

conducting ourselves ethically in this land in this place thanks

59:22

yeah i’ll just mirror that as well this idea of it comes back to relationship building i think that’s something that

59:27

new york really emphasized to me is how much that direct person to person contact is and that that’s something also that

59:35

um reminds me and brings me back to my community and my family as well that that was something like who are you where are you

59:41

from knowing all this information as a way to be accountable

59:47

right who’s in the room with you knowing the room um and just returning to that idea of

59:54

ethical accountability together i think that’s really important and and like nick said

1:00:00

um when we think of our relations there’s us but we also have many other relations we

1:00:06

have the water our relations with the water with the sky with the land with the trees with the fish with the birds you

1:00:13

know all of these relations that often get left out and you know i remember being part of um

1:00:19

you know jason and i were part of this racial imaginary event and that you know they talked about it

1:00:26

being about whiteness and i’m like at the end of the day we’re like this isn’t about whiteness this is about

1:00:31

anti-blackness and if you want to talk about whiteness you can’t leave out indigenous people as

1:00:36

well we have to go back and include the genocide that’s happened on the very land that we’re on so

1:00:42

it’s great to see a lot of progress happening um on both sides of the canadian u.s border

1:00:49

thinking in mexico you know constantly being aware of the issue that in mexico

1:00:54

you know jason reminds me that um the brown people who are the mexicans are indigenous as well

1:01:01

which isn’t acknowledged in canada when we look at who are our indigenous

1:01:06

colleagues you know they’re always looking to the colonial like the other parts of the commonwealth

1:01:12

um new zealand and australia so i think really opening up what this is whether you know with ben talking

1:01:19

about are we talking about um black indigenous right are we talking about black america

1:01:24

what are all these ways that we want to define ourselves and connect

1:01:32

thank you i think that you know what i part of the conversation now i want to

1:01:38

bring it to the mtl folks and see what can they bring into the room but part of part of us thinking about

1:01:45

museums is that it came from like our movements uh with occupy and the failures and

1:01:51

lessons learned of not acknowledging that we’re on stolen land even though many of us weren’t raised

1:01:57

here so that’s kind of a learning uh process and progress and

1:02:02

and so then when we when the movement got crushed and

1:02:08

we you know started doing other things we focused on institutions as sites that

1:02:13

can offer a little buffer and provide more leverage so for us the idea of going for example to the

1:02:20

guggenheim or whatever it’s us we’re artists and whatever but we know these things that they claim

1:02:26

not their mission state what they claim in their mission statement is antithetical to what their function is in the world and so it was a sight of

1:02:34

uh to go and struggle but also it’s not to struggle against that’s a byproduct

1:02:40

but the transformation of finding each other and building power and and training in the practice of

1:02:46

freedom is what we were kind of doing as we found each other and i think that the pivot to the city is like it was

1:02:52

always part of that logic right and that the moment called for and i think we’re in a moment right now

1:02:58

where one of the things that we have to ask ourselves is why did the george floyd moment

1:03:04

after so many years of building get crushed so quickly in one respect

1:03:11

it’s always learning it’s always growing these are relations they’re it’s a win there’s no question but

1:03:18

the counter insurgency was so strong and and and so when we when we when we are

1:03:25

talking and having this conversation now i’m reminded by the importance of hitting these institutions that

1:03:31

offer us proximity to the

1:03:37

and so with that i just want to kind of pass it on to mtl people i just wanted to make a point

1:03:43

specifically for people who are watching that we’re actually going to extend beyond 130 um so just as a point of information

1:03:53

mars uh kyle amy if you have anything andrew yates

1:04:01

crystal don’t be shy yeah i can say something um just really

1:04:08

quickly kind of building off of what’s been in the room but um i think that the relationships that

1:04:15

we build in our movements are definitely key um we’re you know we talked about creating other worlds within and yet

1:04:21

outside of white supremacy patriarchy imperialism and capitalism um but i think what we’re all kind of

1:04:28

noting is that people who enter these new worlds like to bring

1:04:34

worldly with them into these spaces right and so and by that what does that

1:04:42

look like sometimes people spend so much time reaching for vertical power and money

1:04:47

that they forget the horizontal power and the debts that we owe each other right which is something amin

1:04:52

is always saying so it’s literally just like we’re creating these new worlds and you’re bringing your worldly

1:04:59

bootstraps in here to pull up in front of all of our faces right and and that’s the nonprofits

1:05:06

that’s the people at universities that’s the gentrifiers that’s all of that but they

1:05:11

they so badly i’m like in their hearts know that the system is them up to

1:05:17

to kind of channel friend mode in a little bit and yet they still are are kind of bringing

1:05:24

some of these worldly ways into it um and i think that’s one reason why the church the george

1:05:31

floyd uprisings were crushed so simply and so easily it’s because one as brit noted the

1:05:38

non-profits or ha you know actual britain has noted over the month and i’ve known her or the

1:05:45

years i’ve known her that the non-profits um you know they were preparing

1:05:52

for the past since 2014 with ways to counter insurgency to stymie growth

1:05:58

out in the streets they came out with their leaders and then people who were dreaming of other worlds but still doing worldly

1:06:05

went to those protests and it just compounded from there and there was a lot of loss so there was a

1:06:11

lot of people who didn’t really know what to do next and i think confusion is what gets commodified and

1:06:16

like thrown out as like oh good um but yeah i would just say that

1:06:21

you know how do we break the cycle that people have been talking about earlier um how do we get people to imagine

1:06:28

worlds otherwise and while imagining worlds otherwise how do we get people to

1:06:33

kind of let go of some of the habits that they learn and maybe it’s because those habits bring some sort of

1:06:41

temporary security in the world right now or at least it seems like it brings temporary security perhaps in the form

1:06:47

of a paycheck um or some sort of prestige

1:06:53

but i just you know i hope that we can get to a place where people see beyond that um and and get to a place where people

1:06:59

understand that that that paycheck and that prestigious crumbs compared to the table we could

1:07:05

build in the feast that we could have

1:07:11

thank you mars um that’s wonderful

1:07:17

amy kyle yates i’ll just add i think um you know

1:07:24

thinking about our work in terms of the city i think the ford foundation becomes a really

1:07:29

crucial moment because it was a public moment where the ford foundation was

1:07:34

being weaponized its money and the arts that they support to basically legitimize the building of

1:07:41

new gels you know and so you know back to your question about

1:07:46

why the george floyd uprising was so squashed you know the the for foundation there’s

1:07:52

a history there doing that kind of work of squashing rebellion with their

1:07:58

foundation money so i think for us you know pivoting into the city through the ford foundation i think was

1:08:05

you know was a really kind of important moment because it was you know the four foundations almost the holy grail you don’t question you don’t

1:08:12

critique and they were basically you know weaponizing their their foundation to build new gels

1:08:19

and and really pushing that as like how they were legitimizing that through the arts

1:08:24

and through that kind of money you know charlene was just talking about a billion dollars they were trying to give or they’re giving

1:08:32

to social justice work through the arts so you know for me and for the work

1:08:38

we’re doing that right there was the moment where we see it fully connected in in in public view you know as i just

1:08:46

want to add that i think it was uh you know in terms of us pivoting to the city that was a crucial moment

1:08:53

it also reminds me just to make the connection like the ford foundation’s relationship to museums and when warren

1:08:59

kander’s resigned from the whitney board there was it was reported in new

1:09:05

york times that they met with darren walker you know undisclosed directors of museums

1:09:12

probably to think about the future of philanthropy and i’m seeing this idea of philanthropy

1:09:17

and inclusion and all this stuff is really a logic of counter insurgency at this moment

1:09:24

equity all this kind of stuff which has already been brought up but i think it’s good to kind of

1:09:30

see these connections um amy yates andrew

1:09:38

well i i have a brief comment uh it’s more of a structural one and it’s it’s really somewhere in

1:09:44

between chalene’s description of dtp is rattling the cage which i liked and um and what ben

1:09:53

uh was arguing for which is more of a building sort of more of a programmatic

1:09:58

knowledge base and i i i mean i i’ve always thought of

1:10:04

dtp as a catalyst uh catalysts make you know they make

1:10:09

chemical reactions happen and uh sometimes they’re quite explosive

1:10:15

chemical reactions others other times not um but we don’t we don’t have the

1:10:21

resources or the structure really to direct where that chemistry goes and and frame

1:10:29

it in in the directions that we would like that to happen and um

1:10:36

and i i think this is a i i think it’s a question for for us and for everyone really on this

1:10:42

call about whether it is actually our job um

1:10:47

to build something more programmatic given the limited resources and the kinds of skills that we have

1:10:54

just just to give one example we’ve always talked about we’ve always called for a decolonization

1:11:01

commission right and our work with museums we’ve never

1:11:06

we’ve never put together a blueprint for decolonization commission i mean i think

1:11:12

in part not just because of our limited resources but also because as a matter of strategy we’re undecided

1:11:20

about whether actually that is our role and our function you know to be building

1:11:27

that kind of structure as opposed to operating you know more in the catalyst

1:11:34

role or the rattling the cages role we don’t we don’t get to the point where we’re actually

1:11:40

you know moving the cages around we open them but we can’t eliminate them um and at some point i

1:11:48

i think we have to ask ourselves uh to operate within within the limits of our strength and

1:11:54

our skills and to keep things tight as opposed to you know reaching beyond what we’re

1:12:01

capable of doing or not that’s that seems to me to be a conversation about uh you know

1:12:08

movement building from our perspective that is ongoing but uh in the course of

1:12:14

the next you know several weeks with these conversations uh perhaps could be directed more

1:12:21

towards what’s happening on the ground in ontario um because we

1:12:27

you know one of the reasons we took on this uh this show really was to was to help make

1:12:34

connections and to amplify what we could by being you know virtually are in the ground in

1:12:41

ontario itself thanks andrew thank you who wants to go

1:12:49

next um

1:12:56

i mean i’m just i feel like so much has been said already that like i don’t want to just

1:13:02

say repeat the same things but i feel like one thing that just something i’ve been thinking about a lot

1:13:09

and sticks out to me is like the mentioning of being able to touch to

1:13:14

actually touch the line of struggles right and reconnect with these lines of struggles

1:13:20

that go beyond just like um our worlds like our little worlds that we inhabit

1:13:26

right now and go beyond so like um really thinking about like right we’re in the

1:13:34

midst of covid and everyone is in these like little bubbles that get formed but um

1:13:40

and then usually aid became a really big thing and like seeing the importance of that

1:13:46

but also so like um really trying to realize what that means what mutually

1:13:52

means because it’s not just about like you know um you know getting non-profits

1:13:58

to give like a one-time like what the brooklyn museum did like oh we’ll do like lynch

1:14:04

boxes like once a week or not even for a month um or like

1:14:09

they’ll open their bathrooms like to um um people who were protesting but i’m

1:14:15

like how come they didn’t give their space you know um but um so thinking about

1:14:21

how like in mutual aid like we’re also refusing what is you know as

1:14:28

we’re trying to build and we’re really trying to embody this right so really thinking about how um

1:14:34

our body-based senses are all also a part of this and how that actually builds for us to

1:14:42

really see each other and then create something create something new um and so like i mean i just have to say

1:14:50

i appreciate being here with you all to plot you know because like you know that’s what we’re doing we’re plotting and

1:14:58

yeah i really appreciate that yates um

1:15:07

so i really appreciated um ben’s

1:15:14

point about like everything has a document right and that sometimes that can take the form

1:15:20

of written documents in a you know in a colonial institution or a

1:15:26

corporate institution but there’s lots of other ways to that things can become documents that we can see in new ways

1:15:33

like that shift of perspective that ben did when talking about our phones and the devices

1:15:39

that we’re talking about i feel like that’s a that’s what’s happened with the museums

1:15:44

is that that that kind of that that shifting of the lens and the orientation so that we can like read all these

1:15:51

things as documents and if you and it reminds me of the research that people did and i know that

1:15:58

um you know that for mickey nack and other scholars and organizers like really going into the archives

1:16:05

of places like the am h and the way in which that research then becomes a kind of prism

1:16:11

for the struggles to come together and that not to just be a paper or a policy but to be this

1:16:17

embodied action that does that cage rattling but also creates the space for alternatives um and i think that

1:16:25

that process of the document trails whether it be in actual archives or

1:16:32

whether it be in testimonies or whether it be in objects i feel like that is

1:16:38

that that scholars and organizers have done that so much and are in the process now with these

1:16:43

institutions that have very let’s say explicit his colonial histories but that

1:16:48

modern and contemporary art museums are part of that same historical continuum and there’s a lot

1:16:55

of people’s research and document reading and researching that um i think could

1:17:02

could hap could happen and has already started to happen at a lot of other places and in many cases this stuff is

1:17:09

hiding in plain sight it’s just shining a light on it and having that having that angle that ben raw

1:17:15

and so just kind of thinking about um what kind of popular research

1:17:21

initiatives um how we can continue to extend those and expand them to different places

1:17:27

and working in this formation and with these kind of groups and networks of folks we know that it never just goes into

1:17:34

something academic or something that’s just contained in the frame of something an institution is

1:17:39

doing that’s what’s been amazing is cc the operationalization of knowledge of

1:17:45

research of reading and enacting that truth with our bodies and in spaces and in

1:17:51

ways that actually can make a change so um so yeah i think the

1:17:57

i think there’s a lot that a lot more that we can do with um archives um uh

1:18:04

building on the work that that so many scholars and organizers have already done but i think with each new document that

1:18:12

we look in with that new perspective it becomes uh you know it’s almost like their

1:18:17

archives are our receipts in a certain type of way you know um and so what does that mean for

1:18:24

you know for for actual you know being able to to leave the terms of the

1:18:30

institution to create something else but doing it in such a way that we

1:18:36

we don’t just we when we say forget the institution it also means drill down on that institution in new ways

1:18:41

but without recognizing its authority um and to set the terms and the way everybody was describing the forward

1:18:47

foundation with the non-profits with all the initiatives that are happening at museums um

1:18:52

there’s a lot we can do when we do it autonomously which does not take away from also in some cases working within them

1:18:59

in various ways in the way that mickey nack was describing but i think it’s probably specific to what what institution you’re talking about

1:19:05

because look here we are being hosted by guelph um and having a really great collaborator in in sally for example

1:19:12

within an institution so the site specificity of which institutions we’re talking about um i think also matters in terms of how

1:19:19

we make things operational

1:19:24

yeah let’s let’s hear from jason and then uh and then go to you yeah so so thank you

1:19:30

it’s been noted a couple of times that what we’re actually up against as a network but i want to be a little more granular

1:19:36

with that from personal experience is that what you’ll often find in new york city

1:19:41

is you have board members of large arts institutions who are also board members of smaller institutions and what will

1:19:47

happen is when they’re the smaller institutions which have a more i don’t know i guess a different

1:19:53

way of operating uh less bureaucratic they will begin to gather momentum for trying to make changes in their

1:19:59

institutions or support changing in other institutions for example

1:20:05

uh the american music i keep calling it amnh because that’s all i know

1:20:11

american museum of natural history but then the director will say well someone from the board of the amnh

1:20:17

will also be on the board of the smaller organization general a museum or

1:20:23

and then that support will be quashed because they cannot upset that direct that um that board that board from amnh

1:20:32

and so this happens a lot and so i’m wondering with the support with the hosting that we have in guelph

1:20:37

i wonder who was on the board of guelph that would also be on the board of a larger institution that would probably had they you know if

1:20:44

if dtp had done activities there if this would have been quashed at guelph

1:20:49

for example and i think there’s a lot of research that needs to be done for finding out this network uh and

1:20:56

getting around them or when you oust a board member from where you seek to oust a board member from a large

1:21:02

organization also making sure that it’s publicized of these smaller organizations that they

1:21:07

have an imbalanced impact at

1:21:17

i’m just going to interject here thanks natasha um i’ve just got a message from our director and our board the agg board

1:21:24

is not composed that way this is not defensiveness this is just for the sake of clarity

1:21:29

um so we don’t we don’t necessarily have those uh sort of direct um complications

1:21:37

or entanglements in that way but the building where the museum is yes yes i’m going to

1:21:43

be silent again i think we can yeah so yeah i mean the

1:21:50

building feel free to bring that up yeah i mean sally why don’t you mention it and then i can continue just so that i’m

1:21:56

accurate like can you mention where what the building was historically

1:22:01

no but it’s in the manual it can just be dropped in the manual uh do you wanna yeah yeah i i can say

1:22:10

a little bit but also i wonder if um folks who are um folks who are uh who know

1:22:16

more about the history of oligarchic philanthropy and settler state building in canada

1:22:22

could weigh in on it but the the building i believe was a it was started by the mcdonald’s

1:22:31

and the macdonald it was a school it was a school for bringing i think it was white settlers from rural areas to

1:22:38

i apologize if this is if this is um to like a metropolitan

1:22:47

like educational thing but it was if the mcdonald’s were they built their fortune

1:22:55

selling tobacco from the southern united states in canada so they were able to go around

1:23:03

um it was basically during this during the civil war they figured out a mechanism to to be

1:23:09

able to still profit off of the the plantation system um and that that

1:23:14

was kind of like the nucleus of the money and then the mcdonald’s became the main

1:23:19

one of the main philanthropists in building up the settler education system in canada um if anybody

1:23:26

has others to add to that um by all means but i’m pretty sure so sally go ahead

1:23:33

i was just going to read the passage from the manual that references that because i apologize i’m i’m not well versed

1:23:40

enough on the history to sort of summarize it right here but it’s it’s true what you’re mentioning um so

1:23:46

the this is the passage here along with stolen land the wealth at the origins of the art gallery of guelph

1:23:52

also derives in part from the enslavement of african people philanthropist sir william macdonald

1:23:58

built his fortune importing tobacco from the confederate states during the civil war mcdonald was instrumental in creating

1:24:04

the settler education system in canada including the mcdonald consolidated school which was the identity of this

1:24:10

building before it was converted in into the mcdonald’s stewart art center in 1978

1:24:16

and um but the other the other thing to just

1:24:22

briefly mention is that the um the art gallery of wealth the architecture

1:24:28

is entangled with the residential school system here and i’m not um

1:24:35

someone is okay i’m gonna ignore that just for now um but it is entangled with um the sort of

1:24:41

genocide this sort of cultural genocide of an indigenous people even if that is

1:24:47

um mainly articulated on an architectural plane um

1:24:54

maria did you have anything to add to that um

1:25:01

all right um anyone else um natasha you were going to say something and then we yeah but i mean yeah it was

1:25:10

when it kind of went into a different direction but i’ll still bring it up i think the thing that we don’t talk about much is

1:25:15

also the weaponization of aesthetics in this whole project of you know settler colonization or like

1:25:20

all of this because um you know i think like you know like you mentioned they connect like the role of

1:25:26

the museum in terms of building the citizen or the state like you know somebody who’s part of a state or a citizenship

1:25:31

it’s such so deeply tied to the aesthetics that these institutions produce and they also kind of are so tied to

1:25:38

this idea of what even counts as a human being right if you bring fenan into this like phenomenon like you know black skin uh

1:25:44

white mask or any of these you know different um kind of the role of aesthetics um that that is built into it

1:25:51

because i think if we really talk about that then this all this conversation about diversity equity or having a black

1:25:56

biennial or a people of color biennial or a gendered biennial or all of that it’s like it’s part of the same system

1:26:02

right and i think it’s important to understand that even on the level of aesthetics and by aesthetics i just

1:26:07

don’t mean beauty or like seeing like beautiful on the wall it’s the way we sense the world

1:26:12

it’s it’s our it’s our entire senses that we’re talking about so when we talk about embodied practices

1:26:18

within our movements or within our institutions um i think that the role of the aesthetics is highly weaponized right

1:26:24

what counts as art what doesn’t count as art right that’s like you know talking sdtp often people like oh you’re just

1:26:29

activists right and we don’t like the term activist because it’s a specialization of something that

1:26:35

you know shouldn’t be a specialized uh role right so you know we’re organizers we’re artists we’re human beings we’re

1:26:41

people we’re we’re just trying to rattle the cages as as charlene said um so i mean i think that i think that i think the role of

1:26:48

the aesthetics is really important and then the other thing that i think i deeply learned specifically from uh you know indigenous

1:26:55

struggles both in the united states but also here back home in india is the project against assimilation

1:27:01

and how that is really important um and i think that like you know the more i’ve been thinking about like what are the kind of

1:27:08

lines that can be drawn which are you know built for building relations between this abolitionist

1:27:13

the colonial anti-imperialist kind of struggle is being against the project of assimilation and that includes

1:27:19

development progress modernity diversity equity like you know civic projects architecture

1:27:25

archives you can put anything under that like because you know all of it comes from that structure that we’ve been

1:27:30

living and it’s not just easy to say that it’s just a western project at this point and i think that

1:27:36

places like you know india offered a really good example of that where you have you know

1:27:41

you know decades of like centuries of history which is also a fascist which is also

1:27:46

you know um also like has been a source of oppression for years and so i think that you know as i i

1:27:53

think as brittany mentioned like when liberation has become a colonized project right what is the project of liberation

1:28:00

against assimilation like i think that’s another like you know like it’s something that i’m thinking about

1:28:06

and then just like you know i was just thinking about andrew like your point about like what can we do

1:28:11

i feel like so much of our time just goes into holding like you know like around the

1:28:17

whitney museum right that’s a good example the nine weeks of art in action we went every freaking friday

1:28:23

to kind of like battle the cages um to talk about palestine to talk about puerto rico to talk about kashmir to talk about

1:28:29

tijuana to talk about you know nypd to talk about ferguson to talk about like every to sudan like we every single

1:28:36

friday we went but what what what was communicated oh they just want candors out

1:28:42

that’s it so when when candace is out that’s the win we won right did we really win and i

1:28:48

mean this was a question we were asking even at that time and i think this is really important to think about specifically

1:28:54

not just for dtp but as like art movements or movements amongst the city it’s not just about bad money good money

1:29:01

one board member that member this you know we’re talking about the whole freaking god damn structure that needs to go

1:29:08

right so it’s not that we need a black curator or or or a south asian curator for a south

1:29:13

asian museum that should be like striped from the get-go and i think

1:29:18

that’s like you know and i think like um one thing that i was thinking about you know uh which i heard fred talk about

1:29:26

and like that’s something that you know specifically thinking about you know the kind of lines between uh

1:29:33

abolition and decolonization but also anti-imperialism is how do we build projects that are

1:29:38

against ownership and how do we abolish the idea of ownership right and and and like how do we actually think

1:29:45

about that in our relationships and how do we actually communicate that through our actions that we’re even

1:29:50

trying to do even on a small scale and so you know i think for me personally one of the things that i

1:29:57

you know realized from the whitney stuff is that we sh we we should have began from the colonization

1:30:02

and abolition from the get-go like giving like thinking about let’s begin from the crisis of what the candace project is

1:30:09

you know hoping that it would translate over time that you know we would be like pedagogy

1:30:14

transformation thresholds all these things would kind of like you know come together and people would see how

1:30:19

these issues are connected right um and like you know the thing that we haven’t brought in is palestine like

1:30:25

how that was such a huge pivot uh central point to to the organizing

1:30:30

around whitney and how that’s always something that throws a wrench and it also causes like counter insurgency

1:30:36

all these things like we’re still facing the repercussions of a lot of that you know uh which which are not you know

1:30:41

at the forefront but like what what what palestine does as as even just you know as a place to be in solidarity

1:30:49

with uh in this kind of you know western project uh is is is just yeah i just wanted to

1:30:55

bring yeah that’s it by riffraff yeah thank you all right uh celine

1:31:01

last word and then i’m going to wrap up and open up for questions bring us stuff i just i wrote some

1:31:08

here i want to share with y’all i’m going to make sure it comes across

1:31:13

liberal multicultural naval gazing inside the empire was a backlash

1:31:19

to third world liberation and solidarity anti-imperialism is the political line

1:31:25

in the sand breaks through all of the cosmetic language that passes itself off as a radical politic

1:31:31

to criticize capitalism which is to say racial capitalism neoliberalism and colonization without

1:31:39

an anti-imperialist lens is toothless remember that the black panther party had an embassy in algiers

1:31:45

we are not thinking past the gated citadel we live in and studying how our oppressions are

1:31:51

inter globally to a ben’s point if we don’t go back to

1:31:57

that that political line which was snuffed out by cointelpro and silence during the neoliberal turn

1:32:03

to the right if we are not thinking about solidarity in this way then we risk reproducing imperialism a

1:32:11

multicultural imperialism and i’m not down for that so i mean thank you

1:32:19

um so i just want to kind of say that like one of the contributions of of dtp is that if you hear this

1:32:27

conversation we’re coming from different places and those don’t get ironed out they get reinforced as actually an

1:32:34

approach to a system that is as complex and we embody it by creating

1:32:40

both a framework that doesn’t simplify right it’s and that holds space

1:32:48

for that collective takes the collective liberation project seriously now the way we’ve done that is through

1:32:54

targets through action because institutions are a reflection of what we’re talking about

1:33:00

and then it allows you it allows you to strike with precision right and simultaneously it gives you the good

1:33:07

feeling versus something like being you know wanting to go out of protest in the street and then you’re just in a

1:33:13

cage right and they call it the you know the free speech cage right these these are

1:33:19

the issues that i think fred milton would you know just kind of refer to as like the imagination

1:33:24

part of what we’re dealing with here is the imagination and the inspiring and the learning and not being afraid of

1:33:30

failure and finding each other and putting signals out in the world but it’s also to act transgressively

1:33:37

right it’s important that we choose to act with transgression that we don’t respect their legitimacy

1:33:43

right that we don’t respect the people that kill us and that we don’t actually resist in the ways that they

1:33:50

just want us to now to andrew’s point i think the issue

1:33:56

around scale isn’t the issue that that is that is an impediment to our organizing

1:34:02

i think the issue is structurally how do we address the debts that we owe

1:34:07

each other in the work that we do now not later an analysis that is

1:34:13

reflecting of these different things doesn’t support us sufficiently now when you look at the

1:34:19

whitney what was clear is that we were rattling pages not just for the institution

1:34:27

right but we were also limited but it was it was amongst us you know at the end of the day the

1:34:34

biggest issue we’re facing right now is that some people are invested in this system right

1:34:42

and we as dtp choose to understand struggle and entry points to struggle on

1:34:48

a spectrum right so if these people with different viewpoints whatever their motivations we don’t know what

1:34:55

their positionalities are that’s fine right but we need to move and we need to

1:35:01

keep moving and i think that in the context of our targets it’s not just that it’s an

1:35:08

alchemy it’s that we’re trying to figure out and we’re trying to find each other so i think that for us after this manual

1:35:16

it’s going to be critical what kind of action comes out or initiative comes out of this

1:35:21

this is the first time that we’re doing something you know uh in in this you know across

1:35:28

the the colonial border and we’re trying to understand how how we can be while being on

1:35:34

colonial zoo why we can be on colonial zoo trying to do something

1:35:39

so i think we want to open it to questions i just want to remind people that we’re taking notes and then we’re

1:35:45

going to summarize towards the end but you know finding targets finding

1:35:51

specificity is how we can advance the project because we need to have leverage and we need to find our power

1:35:59

at the end of the day it’s it’s it’s how do we how do we build our relationships

1:36:04

there’s the win with an analysis right that as a byproduct we level of low against

1:36:10

capital imperialism colonialism whatever so we’re opening up for question sally and

1:36:16

sally’s managing the questions process yes oh and then and then anyone who

1:36:23

wants to take a stab at the question raise your hand or whatever just make an indication

1:36:28

yep and we’ll figure we’ll figure that out um so we had a couple first of all thank you everyone

1:36:34

for your comments for your insight you’ve given us so much to think about um but

1:36:41

we had a couple of questions or and we had a couple of questions um from earlier on i think this one is

1:36:47

is i’m going to start with this one this was related to ben’s statement and it was from frank schofield

1:36:52

um how and where do you even build this research and knowledge of funding sources

1:36:58

power brokers stakeholders etc to then inform our actions i think that’s that’s a really useful

1:37:04

question um particularly what we’re talking about um

1:37:10

action right how do how do how do we attain this knowledge to which we can then

1:37:15

inform the actions that we take

1:37:23

so i don’t know if ben is on and wants to take a stab at this or anyone else yeah i could just answer

1:37:28

quickly and everybody who else wants to jump on but basically always know

1:37:34

always know who’s paying for um um paying for things who’s funding it once

1:37:40

you find out who’s funding it then the question is what is that person’s political interest

1:37:46

if there’s a museum and then i’m actually the board member who’s actually has the money

1:37:52

funding it then you got to say okay what is ben’s political interest and what you’ll find is that museum is just one percent of my

1:37:58

inch of my financial support the other 90 is in the real things i really care about

1:38:04

right and from there you go okay bet so that’s the political if once you determine my political

1:38:10

interest is the money back behind the adventure then you say okay then that means the museum’s real intent

1:38:16

is whatever my actual political interest so if my political my what i was doing was bombing kids in

1:38:22

yemen or if i was whatever i was doing if i if i’m from the tech industry if i’m more

1:38:28

then that’s actually my actual that’s what the actual function of the museum is behind the scenes

1:38:33

um that’s just a simple way to look at things but you can just extrapolate that use your googles and and just i think

1:38:40

commit to always having somebody on your team who’s a researcher and rotate that that role amongst people

1:38:47

and and just get a practice of doing that

1:38:53

i would like to also add is trust your gut if something seems fishy

1:39:00

go down a rabbit hole and ask questions and stay curious

1:39:06

and take risk

1:39:12

thanks i’m just going to interject something here really quickly um mars has shared that www.littlesis.org

1:39:22

is a great resource to tracing the money and that’s little cis not little okay anyway

1:39:33

oh did someone have their hand raised or i was just gonna follow up um on the topic of where do we go or how

1:39:38

do you go how do you go about um finding the knowledge about about about uh

1:39:46

how to do otherwise right i don’t think it’s it’s a it’s a matter sometimes we think of it

1:39:52

as there must be a document someplace there must be something somewhere that we can pick up and that will explain everything

1:39:58

often it’s a matter of it’s a practice like uh like my friend down here was saying it’s a

1:40:03

practice and it’s a practice of what maybe what we would call visiting here right you have to be around you have to be

1:40:10

listening you have to be engaging in the process of staying alive and being part of that process of uh of um

1:40:18

of helping out someone of being around and then through that through your listening and through your um action together that’s how you’re gonna

1:40:24

arrive at the understanding it’s because then that knowledge comes with the idea of what the stakes are okay

1:40:29

it’s only gonna be knowledge it’s only gonna be up here until you are invested in the survival of these people who have been

1:40:35

put out who have been pushed out of the way by the state it’s only by being part of the struggle

1:40:40

in an ongoing way that you’re going to understand it right

1:40:49

thank you does anyone else um would anyone else like to respond and if not i’ll move on to another

1:40:54

question

1:41:00

okay um so this was i think the first question that we had and

1:41:07

um edie i believe i’m sorry if i’m

1:41:12

mispronouncing your name um would like to address the steps that um black people are taking to decolonize

1:41:25

um i don’t know if britain and mars and ben can can take a stab at that

1:41:36

i’m happy to take a step at this um i can say this is hard work one

1:41:43

engaging and i can speak personally right um engaging in a process of healing

1:41:50

daily as a practice um is hard um like seeing like i think you have to

1:41:58

put on many different lenses to to see right and so i like i’ve used these things

1:42:05

that i do and dance all all the time to widen how i view things because one most of

1:42:13

the time um my first response is actually trigger

1:42:19

triggering or trauma and that i have to deal with right so just taking pulling back these layers

1:42:26

within my own self to figure out hey is this me responding is this a

1:42:33

auntie in the past responding is it you know like really evaluating

1:42:38

um my actions um how i’m showing up in space um how

1:42:45

i’m having care for myself um and interacting and constantly

1:42:51

interacting in an anti-black ass world right um and so that anti-blackness is

1:42:56

the that gets you over and over and over again right um

1:43:03

and also showing up and and doing work um right now i’m supporting people

1:43:09

coming out of jails and prisons that means i interact with violence every every other day and not saying that

1:43:16

they’re violent but the interaction in which the system deemed him as unredeemable um

1:43:24

or dealing with someone that has been caged that is temporarily like um

1:43:31

like ableist or like you’re gonna mean like these levels of violence that they experience every day

1:43:36

and i am experiencing and working through the with them through a healing process

1:43:41

means like or like basic support um

1:43:47

this brings up a lot of re-triggering so for for me um i have to check myself constantly

1:43:55

to be like okay is this the colonized brittany that’s speaking or is it like i want to say five

1:44:02

times i’ma say and be okay with it right um and and taking um

1:44:10

like allowing my my body because i i mean as a dancer i i’ve experienced liberation in my body

1:44:16

moving um i have that opportunity to do that right so how do i take that feeling and

1:44:24

and work towards something because i know how it somewhat feels from a like a temporal performance that

1:44:30

makes sense so like trying to decolonize how i see and think and all that type of stuff and i’m done

1:44:38

yeah i can jump in a bit here i would i just quickly um because a lot has already been said

1:44:44

to this point but i think a huge part of being black and trying to decolonize

1:44:50

yourself or your relationships or or the the kind of where you are um is not you know is thinking outside

1:44:58

of whatever land you’re currently on so for the us what we have to do is stop being so

1:45:05

u.s centric in black liberation spaces please for

1:45:11

the love of god it’ll continue to recreate the that we’re trying to fight and

1:45:16

the reason being is because yeah trust and believe i understand i’m a clear black woman on this stolen land i

1:45:22

wholeheartedly get it but as american citizens we are complicit in so much that like against

1:45:30

other black folks whose freedom is contingent upon who our freedoms are interlaced they’re

1:45:37

interwoven so it’s like for us to kind of operate with blinders on what does it look like to be

1:45:43

free in north america even is just so you know and um ben was kind of getting

1:45:49

to this in terms of like you know picking up your cell phone and or or amin was getting to this in terms of um

1:45:56

you know i think it doesn’t mean um or maybe it was yates actually um

1:46:01

around how we we’re connected to folks as well when we enter museum spaces but there are so many different ways to be

1:46:06

connected and you know i’m i’m not saying and i i’m definitely not saying to take your

1:46:13

ass over there to go live or something who i just read you know that’s a whole other thing i’m

1:46:19

not saying to go like colonize these other lands by trying to get back to your roots and like

1:46:24

please dear god no but what i’m saying is that there are people there are things you can read about online there are different ways

1:46:32

um that you can get involved that way there are different relationships that you can build um but also most you know perhaps even

1:46:38

more importantly than realizing our complicity is that when we reach outside of the u.s or outside of canada or outside of our

1:46:45

immediate locale we’re also reconnecting to um our ancestors both living

1:46:51

and dead and we’re also reconnecting to roots that could be you know the wrap

1:46:57

the the black radical tradition or the black radical imagination so that’s what’s really important

1:47:03

imperialism has disconnected us from our source and it’s important that we we make those

1:47:09

connections and we be ready to be hold ourselves accountable when those connections are made i think

1:47:15

that’s sorry i just wanted to briefly interject here um i think that those are really great

1:47:22

points and one of the things um one of the things that occurred when i was living outside of canada

1:47:29

um was the kind of the rise of the black lives matter movement here and one of the things that really

1:47:36

heartened me when i read about it was that was to read that they were working alongside

1:47:41

idol no more which was a movement um that was started by um indigenous

1:47:48

groups and indigenous individuals within what i’m referring to as canada um shilling um made this point and i’ll

1:47:55

turn it over to her i’m sorry um perhaps she can go after ben i think these are things to really

1:48:00

be mindful of um to be mindful of i guess as as um black residents of the americas

1:48:08

the ways in which um our liberation struggles or our oppression has historically

1:48:14

been linked to the genocide and displacement of indigenous groups surely you want to go ahead

1:48:21

so you can follow up to that real quick sorry i wrote it in the chat but i only sent it to the panel so i’ll just

1:48:26

say right here uh that the first decolonial understanding for black descendants of chattel slavery

1:48:32

is to understand that the dialogue was always supposed to be with the indigenous people of turtle island

1:48:37

about living on this land not a negotiation with settlers over 40 acres and a mule

1:48:45

so when you readjust that then you know everything else collapses

1:48:53

i think and i also just want to make this point

1:48:58

as a black people we are sovereign to this land um we’re not residents we’re sovereign to

1:49:05

this land as we have um because of forced labor

1:49:10

um and because that we tended to these these lands when us i’m also indigenous

1:49:16

um cherokee and seminole right and so right now there’s a fight for black

1:49:22

people who are cherokee and seminal for for to

1:49:28

claim who they are right and that’s that anti-black um and so we are sovereign to this land

1:49:34

because we have a connection to this land we nurtured this land this is our home too and also too like

1:49:42

we also have to within the indigenous movement recognize um

1:49:49

recognize how anti-blackness shows up um and um for us to be residents

1:49:56

no this is we’re sovereign we our ancestors shared this land and we look at the laws

1:50:01

of the land this is our home too i just want to say

1:50:08

that sorry uh uh i want to jump on after that thank you for that brittany

1:50:13

and and i’m actually going to not equate your songs with me oh someone else

1:50:21

oh i think it’s feedback um but i kind of want to follow up on what uh mars was saying kind of like the way i

1:50:27

look at decolonization as black people like you you like i think pan-african

1:50:32

from ten africanism and and being pan-african is a great way for us to reflect and really understand decolonization and and

1:50:40

not make things u.s centric because black people we we the the idea of black people the concept of black america and african

1:50:47

american is very recent that thing is only 20 30 years old

1:50:53

right and what the the looking at that terminology you got to realize black people didn’t always identify with

1:50:58

the united states and so we got a really black people have really you got to study your people

1:51:04

with the same respect you study anything else it is not long ago that black people

1:51:10

would send u.s soldiers would black movements here would send black people soldiers

1:51:18

in opposition to the united states right in opposition in multiple theaters

1:51:24

of war we were like nah we don’t identify with what the us is doing we oppose it so our liberation

1:51:29

movement is going to join the opposition right and and and

1:51:35

that that’s the thing that people have forgotten i mean the first slave revolts those were transnational efforts like

1:51:41

people just think that black people were like oh we’re upset with slavery summer rise up to me that was the reality too but where

1:51:48

was denmark vesey trying to go right he was in a deep dialogue with the

1:51:55

caribbean and he was trying and it’s not a coincidence that certain places were

1:52:00

successful because people were timing their revolutions on a transnational clock

1:52:06

uh um you so you can think of there’s a reason why haitians chose to

1:52:12

rise up at a certain time when they got in the woods and they started to pray together i forgot the name of the woman who

1:52:17

kind of was one of critical forces to gather them together they chose that specific time because they

1:52:22

understood what was going on in france they understood how long it took for the ships to come to reinforce the island

1:52:28

they understood how many soldiers were on the island they understood what was going on in the u.s they understood what was going on the

1:52:33

other caribbean islands and then they chose a specific moment and the minute they won anything they

1:52:39

immediately began to internationalize their fight so that they became the authors of

1:52:44

liberation fights everywhere and around the world right so so this idea of being decolonial

1:52:51

black

1:52:56

so what peop encourage black people to do is actually study your people look at your

1:53:03

people the way you look at any other thing if you’re artists the way you study your art look at your people and say all right what did they

1:53:09

do all right and what were they thinking what you find is nothing is new there’s none of these little debates

1:53:15

that we have in or or challenges or barriers what is dick colonialism in fact a lot of that our thinking and our

1:53:21

understanding is a lot behind where people were at

1:53:27

even 40 50 years ago where the us government had to answer to malcolm x

1:53:33

when it was invading africa when it was going into the caribbean they had to answer to paul robeson

1:53:39

nina simone when when when they were trying to get nina simone to be the face of america she was like nah

1:53:44

right so so this is the black people need to you know it’s not like you don’t got to make new

1:53:50

it’s you your ancestors been done it studied them in a rigorous way

1:53:55

understand the pan-african struggle started from junk before the ship started we popped off we

1:54:01

were ready to go boom you know what i’m saying when they grab this in africa they have to kill three of us

1:54:06

to take one you know what i’m saying so this ain’t nothing new

1:54:15

one thing i want to kind of just uh add into this from you know just like more as a

1:54:22

palestinian not as a black person but as also a person who’s worked in dtp

1:54:28

understanding that as a person who’s you know a guest to this land that i’m

1:54:35

on or a settler not sure is the colonial condition complicates things right and that’s

1:54:42

intentionally that way so um the the resolute the resolution of

1:54:48

the colonial condition doesn’t happen instantly in a political program this is why we we emphasize

1:54:54

relationships and we emphasize action and we emphasize study and we emphasize coming together

1:55:01

to figure it out because the ways in which we have to figure this out is relational and it’s with each other

1:55:09

and it’s outside of these concepts that are positions now and they dictate outcomes

1:55:15

so in dtp the way the way we’ve gone about it is like well

1:55:22

we recognize that we are on land that is both unseated

1:55:28

stolen it has also been cared for by a lot of other indigenous groups that were forcibly

1:55:33

displaced um it’s something that and and and the stewards of this land are in

1:55:41

many other places and they’re you know there’s all this stuff happening and it’s not different than

1:55:46

what we see in palestine this is what it does right so but it’s also not reacting to

1:55:53

that it’s like how do we move towards collective liberation how do we enact abolition and absence

1:56:02

and making present now how do we how do we um be in the colonial solidarity with

1:56:09

the indigenous groups here as a matter and a recognition that

1:56:14

it takes all of us to get free and we’re both complicit in it not as a position of like say

1:56:21

i’m guilty i’m ringing my hands i’m doing all these things but it’s like it’s killing us too and we

1:56:28

need to not react to it but we need to build with each other and it needs to be genuine and it needs

1:56:34

to be in these sites that are actually sites of conflict contention misunderstanding

1:56:41

and material consequences as a result right so when we say black liberation

1:56:47

and we say indigenous sovereignty we’re recognizing two essential pillars from

1:56:52

where we are that has built this empire right um and and that’s the whole that’s to say

1:57:00

we can’t do anything right not fight against prisons not do any unless we address

1:57:07

those two things right and and that becomes that what the outcome of that is that’s not

1:57:14

for us to decide because our our our solidarity is unconditional like my solidarity is unconditional and

1:57:21

and it’s never going to erase or simplify or try to distill

1:57:27

what that conversation is which is what why what shaleen said is so so dope uh

1:57:35

it’s it’s something that we’re not used to doing but even in our actions if you look at the amnh

1:57:41

the reason why the amnh was so important is because they created the classifications in which different

1:57:47

people can see themselves reflected and how they were screwed over

1:57:52

in the present what that did is different entry points for our struggles

1:57:57

so the framework of a structural approach with a manifestation physically of what

1:58:03

that is we were able to have a conversation that actually produced

1:58:09

um the um brochures for the tours which then

1:58:15

brought not a decolonial knowledge that was created by many groups and the groups that had a claim on or

1:58:22

could or had an understanding or could lead from they were the people that actually

1:58:29

produced that language and what it that was a conversation but it got facilitated through action and it

1:58:35

was against an institution so there was a refusal built in and then there was a coming together and

1:58:40

it was both joyous and powerful then when you go to the um you know let’s say from there to the whitney

1:58:46

what was critical there is that it was contemporary art right it was contemporary art because

1:58:52

the thing isn’t in the past but at the same time how can you not

1:58:57

essentialize struggles for some utilitarian nonsense that reproduces the same structures of oppression

1:59:03

with different people on top is by creating nine weeks of action if you look at nine weeks of action each

1:59:10

week centered a struggle right and why didn’t we say

1:59:16

decolonization from the beginning because the organizing got started inside by the workers

1:59:22

and that’s that’s what it was and it’s like when the conversation is horizontal you

1:59:28

at least understand where people are at when you agree to the terms that are laid from

1:59:34

above then you’re just a tool in the process and so we were trying to resolve

1:59:39

this issue of like well it’s obviously decolonization we have an analysis but we cannot abandon workers front end

1:59:47

and back-end who spoke on this so how can we be in solidarity with them right so i’m i’m bringing this up

1:59:54

because it also can just be in our head whatever we’re talking about right in terms of what do we do you have

2:00:00

to also be out in the street and you have to know indigenous books because they are there they’re rendered invisible

2:00:06

right so that idea of icu becomes part of that process of conversation

2:00:11

understanding where where there’s a set of privileges and things that can happen things that i can do not as a process of

2:00:19

feeling better about your life that’s not what we’re talking about

2:00:24

we’re actually literally talking about how land can go back

2:00:30

how it can abolish property how there can be no prisons what kind of

2:00:36

society do we create now and this is even just with sally working on this thing it’s like

2:00:42

here’s a show what do we do with it we don’t give a about a show

2:00:53

i have a question for jason the og jason yes um so as

2:01:01

i’m kind of putting you on the spot here feel free to reflect it back towards me you mentioned

2:01:06

earlier on that you’ve you’ve worked in a lot of institutions where dtp

2:01:12

and and comrades have taken um have protested at and do you ever feel

2:01:19

um perhaps a conflict or something that there is something that needs to perhaps be resolved

2:01:26

working within these institutions um when confronted with i guess basically

2:01:33

these these problematic histories um that they were forged in um

2:01:40

or is it just a matter of the way in which because of all of these entangled historical conditions that

2:01:47

we’re always moving about or moving through these positions of

2:01:52

contradiction so there definitely is a conflict felt

2:01:59

internally but felt by myself by every artist who works there by every person of color who

2:02:05

works there for every visitor who’s there everyone who supports who’s there so it is by no means is it just an individual

2:02:12

situation for myself um i am just one of i may drop in the

2:02:18

ocean in terms of working there and having these kinds of things happen um there are a lot as we’ve noted today

2:02:25

there are a lot of contradictions that as americans i’m from the united states we we have to deal with just

2:02:32

to get through reality i think and it’s part of one of those it’s eight one is able to be an ally and a

2:02:38

supporter without making claim um you know needing to have that kind of

2:02:44

ownership and there are ones activities i think it’s important as an individual we’re able to mentally to speak a

2:02:50

metaphor close tabs and focus on the things that are really really important to us

2:02:55

as our means of making a contribution to the greater good or through that progress through

2:03:00

non-comper through progress through um cooperation and non-competition

2:03:11

well i think we’re uh we’re good right how can we uh how can we just see each

2:03:18

other and say goodbye to everyone sally do you want to usher us out and then we can see each other for a second

2:03:25

yes um so i just want to again extend my heartfelt thanks to all who

2:03:31

participated both the speakers as well as those who were listening um to this discussion i just want to

2:03:38

thank the thoughtfulness that came through um from all of the for all of the questions

2:03:44

and and in everyone’s um i’m gonna call them presentations everyone’s um yeah their contributions

2:03:52

um our next conversation will take place on saturday march the 13th at noon um saying

2:03:59

that time same that channel so please continue to follow the events page

2:04:06

on the art gallery of guelph’s website and on the this place website and their instagram

2:04:11

for further updates and information have a wonderful day everyone bye-bye

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