0:00

joyce are you saying that the

0:02

bare bones expectations of capitalism

0:05

don’t accurately reflect the nuances and

0:09

richness of being alive

0:11

i’m shocked

0:14

absolutely you’re not

0:19

why we’re a good pair i ramble and she

0:22

makes it a succinct

0:24

[Laughter]

0:26

um speaking of

0:28

capitalism and

0:30

what is expected of us so so this

0:33

program this listener and residence

0:34

program is is not a traditional art

0:38

gallery project it isn’t a lot of

0:41

projects that i curate i get questions

0:43

from

0:44

uh individuals saying why is this art

0:47

this is an ongoing part of my curatorial

0:50

process of always being questioned and

0:52

always having many answers but not

0:54

everyone of course agrees what

0:57

do you think are the values of having

1:00

kind of this more non-traditional

1:01

because many people think of art

1:03

galleries they think

1:05

we’re gonna paint landscapes we’re going

1:07

to

1:08

sculpt figures and that’s kind of in

1:11

general you know there’s different

1:13

perceptions of art but i think that’s a

1:15

generic one that is shared uh by

1:18

by a lot of the public so what kind of

1:21

values do you think in having these kind

1:23

of non-traditional art programs i think

1:26

the first thing that comes to mind for

1:28

me

1:29

is this idea of process versus product

1:33

and how

1:35

we’ve been taught i think in

1:37

by kind of the institution

1:40

taking over our creative minds

1:43

that

1:44

a final product is necessary and is the

1:48

art piece when i actually think that

1:51

that couldn’t be farther from the truth

1:53

like i think that the creative process

1:55

is

1:56

what makes something creative and so you

1:59

know kind of returning back to the

2:01

beginning of our conversation about how

2:03

like building a relationship became a

2:05

creative process for joyce and me i

2:08

think that speaks to

2:10

the limits of seeing art as

2:14

something that is on a page and is

2:16

decontextualized and isn’t in the world

2:18

and isn’t in community

2:20

and isn’t just an everyday part of being

2:22

alive

2:23

and i guess the other thing that comes

2:25

to mind

2:26

is

2:28

the archive and like this construct that

2:30

we have of the archive and like what we

2:33

get to save and what we think is worthy

2:36

of documenting and obviously i mean that

2:39

that’s a

2:40

much longer conversation that yeah i

2:43

think folks and a lot of queer folks are

2:46

are having within art gallery

2:48

spaces because

2:50

you know historically art galleries

2:52

haven’t been affirming of

2:55

subversive ways of creating you know i

2:58

think that that

3:00

is what art is all about and so

3:03

part of that is breaking up

3:05

you know how can the process become

3:07

archive and like how can a relationship

3:11

become a piece of art you know and i

3:13

think those are questions that are

3:15

worthy of being on the table even if

3:17

they sound silly and they’re also i

3:19

think caught up in

3:21

like returning to the experience of

3:23

queerness and like what that can offer

3:26

it i was reminded as you were speaking

3:28

julia that

3:30

you know it’s just like binary code

3:32

right you know like we see the world in

3:35

black and white it’s ones or zeros you

3:38

know well we know that isn’t true about

3:40

gender so why would it be true about

3:42

anything else right

3:44

and

3:45

you know and in my meditation tradition

3:48

we view life as sacred

3:50

and that art like life is part of

3:53

everyday life right you know it’s just

3:55

part of

3:56

we think it’s kind of like art not art

4:00

and that i think that sort of binary

4:03

approach to it is just not

4:06

operational if we come back to the topic

4:10

of our

4:11

you know queer community it’s kind of

4:13

like you know there’s kind of those

4:15

levels that take us from acceptance from

4:18

you know discrimination to acceptance

4:21

right and you know and it’s along that

4:22

spectrum and uh

4:26

my firm value is that diversity creates

4:29

richness if

4:31

if we have this idea that we’re still

4:34

learning in this world and now we need

4:36

to learn how to save the world and what

4:39

does that mean about our behavior and

4:41

what we choose to do

4:43

so

4:44

um i’ll get off my soapbox

4:47

and i feel like you both beautifully

4:49

expressed how much like the importance

4:52

of bringing

4:54

a queer theory or a queer lens into

4:58

institutions be it art

5:00

galleries or be other institutions

5:03

because you know it’s hard to express

5:05

that outside of a queer community um but

5:09

like that joyce here you touched on like

5:12

the like transient nature which i feel

5:15

like

5:16

is often a queer experience of of

5:19

transient and identity transient in in

5:22

sometimes

5:23

community and even the archives juliet

5:27

that you were talking about have like

5:29

often collecting what was thought to be

5:31

as important which isn’t necessarily

5:34

a representation of what there is in

5:38

this world of art

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