Start

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um

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hi jesse hi good morning good my hair is doing its friday thing

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how are you i’m great how are you yeah it’s all right it’s sunny here

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today so it’s good on the west coast yeah it’s been cold here for a few days but it just got

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sunny again uh let me just see if clayton is on the

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call

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let me invite clayton one more time

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we’re just waiting for uh clayton windat who’s the uh director of arca hey there he is hey clayton

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hi clayton how are you hey good how is everybody today

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great great nice to see you good to see you too

Introductions

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so why don’t we get started um so clayton do you want to start with

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a quick introduction and then jesse can introduce himself and then i’ll

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introduce cal sure uh so my name is uh clayton windat

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uh i am a mixed blood settler metis person uh identifying

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without gender uh living and working here in nipissing first nations territory sturgeon falls ontario

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and i am the executive director of arca the artist run centers and collectives conference uh so the national art

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service organization that supports approximately 180 artist run centers uh across canada

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and uh yeah very excited to be here very excited to be working on this project

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jesse would you like to go ahead sure yeah my name is jesse mckee um i’m

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calling in today from the unseated and surrendered territories of the mosquito

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homicide and swallowtooth peoples also known as the city of vancouver i

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am a man so i identify as a cis gendered man and i

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come from parentage my mother’s background as an english family and my father’s background is an irish family

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my father arrived my father’s family arrived just around the potato famine era so the late late 1800s

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on the east coast of canada my mother’s family arrived in canada just after world war ii um in ontario and um let’s

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see at 221a if those who don’t know us we are we’re a cultural non-profit um

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and we’re an artist run center and we work with artists and designers to research and develop social cultural and

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ecological infrastructure so maybe that’s a key to kind of where this project got started was some

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conversations with dana and the architecture lobby following the summer of 2020 and all the learnings and the

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pain and and the growth that happened from that from that period kind of was born countermap.land

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um which is a new infrastructure for us to kind of counter map and reimagine the territory known as canada and that’s

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what’s really interesting to us is um it’s not just having something digital but it’s something something digital

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that can influence the physical and vis-a-vis the physical influences the digital because as we’ve seen especially

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over the past couple of years that there’s a dance going on and it’s not about one or the other but one

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influences the other and you have to be mindful of how that’s done and uh so i’m very uh much looking forward to um

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to doing this let’s see i’ve lived in um i’ve lived in uh mohawk territory in um

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in mikmak territory in uh blackfoot nakota territory and now the mosquito

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and the squamish and suez territories and what i’ve learned is that the later the contact um with indigenous peoples

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um the more the more the closer that us settlers and us um european folk and

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non-european folk um are to indigenous people and and the sooner the contact and history um

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the more distance we have so um you know compared to the east coast and the west coast just think about the difference

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and the connections in the communities so i’m really looking forward to this map

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or this counter map i guess countering the the victorian impulses that still beat at the heart of the project that is

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called canada which keep us apart um that’s the romantic era that’s the area we started burning coal so there’s a lot of things

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that we need to to move away from from from that historical foundation so i hope this is

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just one of those tools that will get us to a better future

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cool thank you jesse uh so my name is dana my pronouns my pronouns are she her

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uh i’m the research and education coordinator at the architecture lobbies

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to toronto chapter and the working group leader for counter map.land which is one of our initiatives

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uh i have a background in architecture uh and i’m currently based in fez morocco

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my ancestors were from the iberian peninsula and north africa

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where they lived under english and french colonial rule and i grew up in to toronto on dish with

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one spoon territory a treaty held between the anishinaabe mississaugas and had nashony that found them to share

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territory and protect the land through this project i hope to unpack

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my role as a person working in architecture an architectural worker but

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also my role as an immigrant as an uninvited guest in so-called canada and to build

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solidarity and allyship uh between the colonial efforts in

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different parts of the world um yeah thanks everyone for joining we’re

Project overview

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super super excited for this project has been in the works for a while um so i’m just going to read a quick

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project description and then we’ll start taking questions if that sounds good and you can maybe start leaving your

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comments in the chat as they come up um so countermap.land is a crowdsource

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project which locates tangible spaces and objects between the in within the territory known as canada represented by

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figures and events be they political social economic or otherwise that have contributed to the dispossession of life

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memory territory and resources of bipolar communities both past and present

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we recognize that maps and the associated technologies of cartography are inseparable from the colonial

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project they describe and segment space defining boundaries to movement the exploitable the exploitable resources of

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landscapes and the reaches of imperial power we hope through this work to appropriate these tools to define new

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collective histories arca along with 221a in the architecture lobbies to toronto chapter have formed a

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research partnership to produce 15 regional engagement workshops which will

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inform the development of of a new digital platform countermap.land each of the workshops will be designed

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as a counter mapathon and will be supported with a five thousand dollar micro grant disbursed by arca

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these events will develop the first data layer of counter map.land and the feedback and learnings gained from these

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events will help to inform the functionality submission vetting process and the interface of the website

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artists run centers or arcs artistic groups and collectives are asked to submit a brief expression of interest to

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detail their intentions ambitions and credentials to host a workshop in their region any self-organized group of

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artists and cultural workers may apply to this program and finally counter-mapped outland is

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built by victor temperano and mapster the team building nativeland.ca

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and this engagement phase of the project is supported by canada council for the arts

Q&A session open

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so if folks have questions if you can maybe start typing them in the chat we

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will answer them um

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um

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thanks jesse

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well i mean if if no one has questions right away we could also talk to each other a little bit and see what comes up

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[Laughter] well um i could i could ask something

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which is uh either of you want to respond to um like the layers of context that come

How to negotiate creating an anti-colonial project within colonial structures.

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with doing actions like this and how uh even though

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this is all about counteracting or responding to colonial uh and and you know at times uh racism

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based narratives um that that it’s hard to not perpetuate uh

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those struck like structures themselves like inevitably taking money from a a colonial government

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to then do pro processes like this uh has it in itself acts of colonialism can we maybe

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talk a little bit about how that feels or what how we’re aware of that at least

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yeah i mean it’s been undermining every single conversation we’ve had about the project i think um

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and because we’re like tal personally speaking it like we’re a

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volunteer run collective and we don’t have infinite resources

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um so it’s like which languages can we facilitate on

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this platform given our bandwidth and resources um how do we vet submissions what does

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that vetting process look like like all of these questions have come up um

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and it’s something that we’re trying to address as the project grows and i think the the answer that we have is that

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hopefully with the participating with the folks participating in the sort

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of engagement phase we can start to build up some of this protocol together

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totally i just see a question coming in from aya collective hiya and

What is the geographic area that a single workshops is expected to cover? City-wide or a neighbourhood in a city?

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the geographic area the question is what is the geographic area expected for one workshop to cover city-wide or

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neighborhood in a city um i’d say that’s up to the context of how your group or your organization works and

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if you have a specific geography or community that um you you really associate with then i would say focus on

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that um you know i think we’re all working at different levels here where arca is our national partner

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the architecture lobby is an international group but dana is representing their takaranto chapter and

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and we’re based in the city of vancouver at 221a but um we work quite internationally and quite hyper locally

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for different neighborhoods here too specifically chinatown the downtown east side and historical gonzales um so um as

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as you wish and propose us something something quite interesting and unique clayton

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i i had a um a phone call uh earlier this week from someone asking

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about specifically one of canada’s first residential schools

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out in new brunswick and how they would had been exploring this site that no longer

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exists because the physical building isn’t there um but then how the connecting points from that uh that

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location would go all over the place because it’s sort of like the root

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uh of a process that then you know became a much larger uh

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scope obviously very quickly and how to address that and i felt like my response was very similar to what yours

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just was jesse which is is it’s not necessarily about um like you can’t represent and be everyone

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but your work might connect to others and that might lead to others doing that

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work as well so i definitely don’t think someone should try to take on

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i’m gonna do everything i’m gonna do the end all for toronto for instance uh that

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would be extremely complicated and um probably too much for one workshop to

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handle but that one workshop situated there might lead to people

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saying there needs to be like 100 more of these just for this region and and that’s that’s really the the

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exciting part is that it opens people’s minds to where these things will go next

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also um we’ve built some filtering functions into

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the the online platform and like we’re still having lots of

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discussions about how we filter information on counter map.land and

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what and like sort of trying to balance being intersectional and and seeing these um

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submissions coexist through these filters but also giving like space and time to individual

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experiences um so this is something that like we’re hoping to figure out more through this

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engagement process um and if folks have ideas like please reach out to us

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and then in terms of the i think aya collective had a second question how do you vision countermapped.land to be used

How do you envision countermap.land to be used? What kinds of communities will use this tool?

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what kinds of communities will use this tool i mean even within this like small group of organizers

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because everyone has a different background we all have um

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slightly different applications for the platform

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so like me coming from an architectural background i’m really interested in this tool

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almost as like an anti-official zoning map um and i’m also interested in like

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seeing some of the counter map uh proposals come to life in meat space in

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the physical world um but i think like jesse and clayton each have their vision

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we hope it becomes a place that absorbs a lot of different um initiatives and that’s

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partly why we’ve structured the project this way totally i would say you know as our

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tourism industry comes back into swing now that vaccination is becoming more common um i hope that there’ll be some

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entrepreneurial tour guides who will start to use this map and uh and kind of lead people around i think it’d be a

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it’s a ready-made business idea and so yeah we’re here to to to support folks who might want to do that in their

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communities there are also so many like sorry go ahead clayton

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no no just go it’s good um there are also so many like counter mapping projects already

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existing in so called canada and so maybe this also becomes almost like an

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index of all of those where we don’t cover every single submission but at least you’re exposing

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folks to all of these like cool projects that are happening that’s that’s very similar to what i was

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going to say as a starting point which was uh i think about um uh camille uh

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turner uh who is an artist who would do um walking tours of uh

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black histories of uh the community of different communities in canada and um

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how like going through the history of that space uh was an individual artist’s practice but it also opened people to

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having an increased understanding of their locality and it can be a point of

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change where someone you know the it’s revealed that that this is not what you thought it was

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and that but that person that it’s being revealed to you has the uh power or authority to actually make change for a

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nest where others who uh it if effects directly and adversely uh

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you know don’t necessarily have that influence to to do something about it right so there is that that awareness

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level i mean for me this project and maybe from um like me personally but i also think

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to a degree for from arca’s perspective there was an interest in seeing uh sort of like

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the support structures to those come trying to come into a program like this and how

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to uh have it that um so say someone comes with uh not a

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monument or or a public named site but instead an individual within an

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organization that is alive and operating today and how to address that uh where

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you know this project can’t and uh we started to look at when like as more

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of the background of the project being like as people come in how can when we can’t help someone how can we

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direct that energy towards somewhere where it could get uh resolved and trying to think about it from the

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the individual’s benefit as opposed to the larger uh societal changes and uh

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that’s been really rewarding going through those discussions with everybody to be like how can

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how can we look at it from that perspective because as a project like this grows the need for those

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direct supports are going to grow as well

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i just want to shout out nativeland.ca and victor again we’ve learned so much from victor

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not only as like a developer of the platform but as someone

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who’s been running native land for a while um

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like the way that native land is organized and like the folks behind that platform

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uh made this project possible and i guess another point of reference

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for a counter mapping project that kind of inspired us we want to give a shout out to queering the map um which is also

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um coming out of montreal mostly but um have a check at that creating the map

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and nativeland.ca for some for some ancestor versions of countermap.land

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we also had a discord like very very early on uh as we were sort of trying to

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vision what this project would look like and there were so many great

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examples of online counter mapping platforms and i like part of me thinks that we

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need to like index these um because like i learned so much just from gaining

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access to those resources totally also to say what kind of communities are

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going to use this it’s it’s also kind of like maybe we can push that a bit further and um you know i think we’re

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seeing that uh i don’t think you guys should think that arca and tao and 221a are the owners of

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countermapped.land at all um because i think the way that the best or building a better internet means that the

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community is the founder so you know we are here to kind of work with the community who wants to build this and we

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would really like to just have the community inherit what this becomes so we’re stewarding it we’re giving it a

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bit of a launch pad but it’s up to the groups who respond to the call and everyone who takes part in the workshops

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to help build this with us and create a create a national kind of community and then maybe an international community

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that can continue to steward this for the future i also want to address the fact that

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currently the boundaries um that you are allowed to submit within

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are so called canada’s boundaries um this is mainly due to our

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limited bandwidth and our ability to

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vet submissions and our access to local resources

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um but there’s no there’s no guessing like how big this

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platform will get

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any other folks with questions

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i’ll i’ll just say that i i’m on um uh queeringthemap.com right now

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and if you zoom zoom out to like a global

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level um you get you get dots on the map almost

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in every country or territory possible you know um

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including areas as uh that are in like the the far arctic and and such so i

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have a feeling that um this this kind of uh launch point always ends up going

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wherever people uh take the initiative to do things i was i am surprised to find out on

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querying the map that sturgeon falls is like a dead zone it has nothing which i’m assuming it’s more about um internet

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connectivity in my community and less about about queerness but um but maybe i’ll uh i’ll nudge a couple

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friends in the area being like you should go to this website and just check it out because

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i have a feeling all of a sudden then i’ll see areas getting populated and maybe that’s that that idea of um

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the distance between sort of digital and physical is that sometimes it requires an actual person to nudge someone uh

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towards a digital resource i’m just going to extend this tangent a

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little bit further and shout out another of uh lucas

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larochelle’s project um so one is queering the map and the other one is an extension of that called

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qt dot bot uh where lucas has taken submissions from from queering the map and

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superimposed them on uh google street views and it’s a really fascinating

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project i recommend checking it out

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and is there a way to share share that project directly or do i just google it see if i can pull this off

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who’s who should be uh doing the work or who should be doing the workshops and um

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there’s lots of um there’s been lots of interest from like various communities like you know um

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classrooms within universities uh departments uh collectives and then artists run centers

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and we’re we’re not defining who necessarily can can or cannot come in but i did think

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that it’d be valuable to talk about um trying to be showing like an openness to working like

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in a community context uh and and really being open so like for instance if uh a

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specific uh master’s class cohort was the the community group it’d be great to

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uh see how uh that group could look at seeking input from outside of just that

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you know 10 to 15 people kind of thing like the idea that it isn’t um that it isn’t like a closed circle

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necessarily or if it is that they’re being very direct about that and and that might be

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a limitation where i know that some organizations have you know hundreds of people they might want to engage

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and others only might have 10 but there’s a part of me that’s like

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being clear about what who that is what that’s going to do and understanding that i think is one of the biggest

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aspects to um bringing honesty and openness into the process i don’t know maybe you could

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speak to that a bit oh and i see dana’s back

Update on project’s Discord

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so and you couldn’t find a link for qt bot um but maybe the best way is just to google that and then it should take you

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to the project is that right okay great just to say too that for those who who enjoy discord or are curious about

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it we will be relaunching the discord once um the uh the groups um who are the

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micro grant recipients are identified um and at that point will we imagine that we’ll give it a new architecture and

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we’ll make that a really public landing place so anybody who’s interested in taking part in one of these workshops in your region

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if you know a group or an organization is going to be hosting one you can follow along um the process as as we’re

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building and conversing in getting to know each other and kind of archiving other countermapped

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projects around the world on that space and please join it and tell us tell us

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how to build this and how to how to interface with the community on discord as well

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if folks have questions please feel free to type them into the chat

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i think i’m not a big user of instagram live but there’s like a little questions button

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and then there’s also the chat so you can leave a question in either place

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great

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uh

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i guess um clayton maybe this is a question for you i know that you’re working and thinking about artistrum

What is interesting about the project from ARCA’s point of view and what does it bring to self-organized artist-driven culture?

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culture um and trying to think about how it’s shifting and how it’s changing so maybe um maybe just from your side what

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was what was interesting about this project from from arca’s point of view and and and and what do you think it

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kind of brings to the um the art the arc and the self-organized artist-driven culture

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wow that’s that’s a huge question um so i mean like i’ll try to

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keep bring it bring it into a little bit of a concise area maybe i’ll say my own interest and less about what it

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does for everyone because i think it it does a lot for a lot of people and for me um

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there there’s there’s ever since artist run centers were created there was some sort of

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identity crisis about roles and responsibilities because artists run culture in itself was sort

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of a counter culture manifestation like the response to museum structures or the response to you

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know formalized gallery spaces public gallery spaces and the formation like the original artist

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run centers in the 60s and 70s were like uh alternative art galleries so the

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other space type thing this uh this kind of movement based or leon kind

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of thing very heavily connected to artists rights uh grew and and over time became

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institutionalized um at times more than others um

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based on the spaces and based on how people navigated it today i get calls

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from people working within artist run centers where the recently hired new executive

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director has no arts practice or arts background they’re they’re you know have an art

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history degree and now they’re working as an ed and they they question why it’s even called an

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artist run center when there are no artists running the center itself and that uh that is a really

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interesting point but for me what i think has happened is there’s the context of visual arts culture the

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context of artist-run culture in the context of gallery culture all of which could be the same thing

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or completely different and there is a blurring of understandings of what these places are and what they mean

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and i would never say that because there’s no artist working at one of these spaces they shouldn’t identify as

30:36

an artist run center but they should know their relationship to artists around the centers and culture like they should

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feel like they see what is happening and understand their proximity to it and the idea that

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they feel the disconnect is a huge thing and and i say that being like

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you go across the country and i find that there are there’s more often

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those kind of confusions or or questions about relationships proximity to issues

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and and how to move forward either together separately is like every single time

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like it’s very all over the place so exploring this on a

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large level is also sort of exploring it within these these spaces as well and i

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think that the more understanding of sort of uh where the core value systems are for

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spaces less than whether they’re reinforcing um sort of institutional rhetoric let’s say

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um like what what what is it that their organization is trying to do

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and how are they doing it with who and you know who gets to share in making those decisions all these kinds of

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things these are like very big questions that i think a lot of spaces are going through uh both within artist room centers and

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outside and then this project sort of feeds into what i would hope is that the

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generative narratives of of kind of addressing specific sites of colonialism

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or sites of racism by addressing them they also give the ability for these spaces to to try

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to address the them either internally or externally because i think artistry and centers have always been where certain

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groups of people have gathered and uh i say certain groups obviously there are um

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you know there are black or indigenous or people of color or

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various equity seeking or marginalized communities uh whoever we’re talking

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about that are not um the stereotypical

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white institution of a canadian government you know whatever like there are those groups that

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identify as artists-run culture or identify as artists around the organizations but are not necessarily

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part of the network or identify as being part of this this this sort of structure

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that i think um by looking at some of the bigger questions of of you know what

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does this colonial site mean to you or what are these doing allow those core values that may or may

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not have commonalities between communities to start allowing uh better working relationships between

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those communities to take place so you know you might find people that are agreeing with you that you did not

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know were standing over beside you agreeing with you mm-hmm that’s true

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yeah yeah and i think it’s interesting too because i think you know when i was a student um the art

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culture was really one of the first places where you could publicly and openly have

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conversations that questioned the canadian narrative and the frame and it felt like

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a quasi-official or public space where you could kind of do this so i

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yeah i think reintroducing this um this opportunity and this narrative within

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the sector i think is very important as as things have professionalized or the staff structure or or programming has

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changed a lot of these things but i just want to give a shout out to some centers like uh saw gallery and gallery 101 and

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sam vox magica daba um who really are led these conversations and even in the

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early 2000s around a lot of this and so for me it just seemed also

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a natural but maybe now a bit of a challenging place to kind of to to to

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do this project i also want to address the the idea that a lot of architectural

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workers often tap into um grant structures for like meant for the

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arts sector and it’s because we have so little research funding in architecture

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but some of the most interesting grassroots work happens in architecture because of arts

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funding and like the line between architectural practice and the arts is

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like blurring in a really interesting way and our profession or at least

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within conversations that we have at tell we’re interested in de-professionalization and like blurring

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those lines even more um so it’s interesting how countermapped.land um has

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sort of become an extension of conversations we have about labor in our

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in our industries and a small point that i’d also raise is

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that uh after doing advocacy for a long time with towards the federal government um

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and other governments but uh i’ve always found it fascinating when criticizing something

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uh it has like a almost like um explosive or defensive response

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because they feel like that shouldn’t be criticized or it shouldn’t be questioned but from my point of almost like looking at it as

36:04

a debate or or having a critical discourse is that if something is so

36:10

unbelievably fragile that it can’t be challenged at all then it isn’t really a very strong

36:17

structure for a society really to rely upon right um so that idea of um

36:22

challenging something is not necessarily an act of aggression or

36:27

harm it’s it’s like a check and balance to be like if if you know you can’t

36:32

justify that that action at all if even questioning that action results in some sort of extremely harsh

36:39

opposition it makes me wonder what’s really happening on the other side and why why you can’t defend these

36:47

actions because that that’s you know from a marginalized stance people are usually used to having to

36:53

defend themselves all the time and so there is that part of me that usually

36:59

the harsh extreme response comes from this this sort of comfort area or privilege area and it

37:05

it it bothers me a lot but that’s on a personal level but on a bigger level it also usually

37:11

becomes the reveal to change you know and and that and that to me is a big

37:16

part of what this project will do is it’ll be the reveal to to change

37:22

yeah yeah part of me feels like that’s already underway especially in the cultural sector over the past couple of

37:29

weeks i think um you know the closing of canadian art magazine there’s a there is

37:34

a lot of conversations about why that happened but um it seems like a major influence was the

37:40

fact that the tone and the criticism changed towards the colonial project of canada and questioned

37:46

kind of contemporary art and you know modern arts role within that um so

37:52

you know i think we’re looking for new structures that um that that we can have these conversations in so perhaps

37:58

countermapped.land is one of those i also think that uh it said something

38:04

about the government of canada when canadian art closed and the government didn’t bail them out to try to make sure

38:10

they continued like it talked about the relationship of the arts and culture sector to the country

38:15

um if that was air canada like an airline i i have no question that there would be some sort of government bailout

38:21

immediately to prevent things from just optics from looking like the we had a

38:27

major structure collapse but when the cultural sector has a major structure collapse

38:32

who’s around to pick up the pieces like that’s it’s a real it’s a real problem not that canadian art was doing so well

38:40

that they should have had a bailout i also think that air canada hasn’t done well enough to deserve a bailout either

38:45

but um but the these are the things that i look at that it’s like they just told us

38:50

how how we are not a focus point for the country when that

38:55

when they didn’t come to to rescue a major institution like that yeah

39:01

totally i mean for me it kind of comes i’ve been kind of trying to get this idea off the ground maybe it needs some

39:06

writing but um or some more talking but um it’s kind of like you know i’ve been seeing the humanities as the user

39:13

interface of the and and the colonial structure is the

39:18

operating system and so through that um you’re not able to use the interface if you criticize um if

39:25

you criticize the the way things have been done in the colonial project and all of that um so i think that there’s a

39:31

real disconnect and um yeah we we need to rewrite the codes and and the protocols of how we engage and and kind

39:39

of how we understand culture in common um in this country that we have

39:44

i mean this is again sort of um been a part of every conversation we’ve

39:51

had that colonial structures are sort of the air we breathe

39:58

we can’t just we can’t escape them in the languages that we’re using

40:04

um in this project we can’t escape them in the territories we’re covering um

40:10

so hopefully some some interesting things counter counter organizational

40:16

strategies emerge out of this project cool

40:22

so i think maybe we should end at 5 45 if there are no more or

40:28

i guess it’s uh 12 45 esd uh

Closing and contact information

40:33

if there aren’t any more questions and if if folks have had difficulty accessing this q a

40:40

or if further questions come up you can reach us at countermap.land gmail.com or you can

40:46

reach us through instagram reach us however you would like to reach us and we’re happy to set up uh like

40:53

individual calls if you’d like yeah and um just a reminder please send us

40:59

your request uh are you for your expressions of interest by mid-november i think we had november 15th on there um

41:06

so it’s it’s just an email that there’s a couple of questions to answer send it our way and we’d love to hear from you

41:12

so thanks for joining us this morning everyone thanks clayton always nice to see you both um thanks dana and have a

41:19

good rest of the day wherever you may be thanks everyone bye

41:24

ciao thanks everybody bye

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